Broke Xterra R180 front diff, best option for upgrade?

[proper4wd]

I posted this on the new X as well and am hoping for some additional opinions here.

I broke the R180 front diff in my 2014 Xterra this weekend. I'm seeing this as an opportunity to upgrade. I understand the strength advantage of an open M205 against an open R180, because of the weak R180 carrier.

However, if both the M205 and the R180 are fitted with ARBs, does that significantly close the real world strength gap? If I'm going to put in an ARB anyways, is the extra hassle of the M205 swap worth any added strength?

Thanks all

 

[skibum315]

I responded to your thread over on NewX, but for giggles I'll cross post it here, as well:

I don't know that you'll get anyone to sign up to a quantitative measurement of the strength difference between an r180 and an m205 ... aside from the m205 having a 25mm larger ring gear.

I think an ARB'd r180 will be plenty strong for anything an Xterra would throw at it ... given what you're describing as your options (ARB'd r180 or ARB'd m205, geared to match your current ratio rear) I'd go with the r180, especially if the housing/R&P from your blown 180 survived.

If you're buying a donor diff, the ARB, and the gears either way; then I'd probably go with the m205 ... simply because it'll be a wash (or near enough) cost wise. However, I don't know that there are 3.13 m205 gears out there, so there's that consideration. Far as I know, for the m205, your ratio options are: 2.94, 3.36, 3.73, 4.10, and 4.56. For the r180 they are: 3.13, 3.36, 3.54, 3.69, and 4.10 ... though there may be some availability issues on some of those. That's just off the top of my head though, so if you've done the in-depth research and have the info more front-of-mind, I'm willing to be corrected.

For me, the biggest turn off to your m205 plan (assuming you have a path on the gearing issue) is the cost/availability of the V8 Pathfinder half-axle assemblies. Unless things have changed recently, they haven't been readily available in the OEM-equivalent aftermarket ... which means getting them through Nissan and paying the premium and/or waiting on dealer supply.

I'm curious about the differences in opinion from this board to that one, as well ... will be watching both threads. FWIW, the m205 (open) is not the silver bullet some make it out to be, they can be (and have been) broken as well - and in similar fashion to the r180. I think, for myself, the attraction of easily replaceable service parts/weak links (half-shaft assemblies, largely) and a need to regear regardless are what drove me to the m205 with Titan width suspension ... now, I know you've said the increased track is not of interest to you, and I'm a manual trans (vs. your AT, if I'm understanding right), so the situations are clearly different. But it's some food for thought, anyway.

 

[proper4wd]

Thanks for the insight over here as well. I may eventually come around on the width of the Titan swap. It's rare to see one on a mildly built Xterra though. (Seems like every Titan swap is at 4"+ lift, deep offset rims, and 35s or close)

What does a Titan swapped Xterra look like with OEM alloy wheels and 33s? I have OME front struts, I'm not sure if those would even transfer over to a Titan swap?

 

[maXTERRA]

Titan swap, stock wheels and 33's


If you go TS, you'll be changing all front suspension, including "struts". Gets pretty pricey, but almost double the wheel travel is incredible too!
Btw, I have a good r180, 3:13 gearing and under 60k miles and not beat that I'd make a sweet deal on.
Dave

 

[skibum315]

What does a Titan swapped Xterra look like with OEM alloy wheels and 33s?

Busted ... I guess the implication from my previous post was that I'd already installed that configuration. Truth is, that's the *end point* that I've decided upon ... I've been slowly (sometimes it feels like *too* slowly) acquiring parts, and am now at the point where I'm basically ready to pull the trigger on the aftermarket suspension bits (front UCAs & coilovers, rear springs, shackles, and shocks) but have run into the issue that nobody makes the Titan-width UCA that I've decided I want. That's a UCA in Titan width, but with bushing inner pivots (vs. the more common heim inner) & an adjustable balljoint outer (vs. the more common uniball) ... think a PSC arm for the Titan. I've got all the drivetrain components, pretty much, and just need to get the axles built now ... then solve the UCA issue and I should be able to get it all installed.

I have OME front struts, I'm not sure if those would even transfer over to a Titan swap?

The problem with running Xterra front coilovers on a Titan width suspension, is that the lower mount point is in a different place (relatively) on the Titan LCA than on the Xterra LCA ... which changes the motion ratio from one configuration to the other. I believe Calmini makes a bracket that you can bolt to the Titan LCA that will adjust the mount point back to where it would match the Xterra motion ratio, but I've only read one review from someone who used them ... look up the member Rushy Rush on NewX, he ran that setup (Titan width arms, Xterra coilovers, and the Calmini motion ratio correction brackets) for a while before finally going to Titan-Swap specific coilovers.

I think the issue would be further exacerbated by the fact that even if you put the motion ratio back to stock, the valving of Xterra specific coilovers may not be up to the task of controlling the Titan width arms ... but I've not dug into it in great detail, so that may be off (I'm thinking second order effects; because if the motion ratio is fixed, the forces should be the same to first order). Further, the bolt patterns on the Xterra and Titan coilover top-mounts are different, so it's not as simple as just running Titan coilovers on an Xterra with Titan width suspension; one must get Titan-Swap specific coilvers ... fortunately there are a couple of places those can be had, they're not cheap though (but not any worse than Xterra specific upgraded coilovers, either).

 

[skibum315]

If you go TS, you'll be changing all front suspension, including "struts". Gets pretty pricey, but almost double the wheel travel is incredible too!

Thanks for chiming in, Dave! Always love an excuse to check out that bumper ... and the truck's looking good, as well. Are you running rear spacers, and if so, what width?

I feel the need to point out that the TS Dave is referring to is the Titan *suspension* swap ... as proper4wd has pointed out elsewhere (in the thread on NewX) it's possible to install the Titan diff with the half-shaft assemblies from a V8 Pathfinder and keep the Xterra width suspension. This would be a Titan *differential* swap ... though the two are often combined and referred to as a Titan swap, or TS, they do not *have* to be, by any stretch - though that may, in fact, be the very setup maXTERRA has installed on his truck. Clear as mud?

Further, the suspension swap nets an additional 3-4" of shock travel (4"+ of additional wheel travel - don't have the exact numbers in front of me at the moment), but not quite double ...

 

[proper4wd]

I feel like I'm in such a catch-22.

Not sure if it's false economy to drop $1900 on a pair of ARBs for the R180 and C200 but that's where I'm at right now... I'd be out about $2500 total for this, versus $4k+ to M205 swap and build a rear axle to match (Dana 60 or 9")

 

[RockyZuk]

MaxTerra. your rig is amazing, I look through your build every few days on the NewX. I am about to go OME HD on my 2006 OR but would love to have been able to afford TS. I also need to be able to fit in the parking garage at work...

 

[maXTERRA]

On the UCA's, I'm now running Rough Country UCA"s and love them! Rubber bushed OEM-like Pivots and replaceable and greasable sealed ball joint. Before I installed the new coilovers, cycled suspension fully, and at full droop, contacting the coil bucket, no binding, so I think they have about equal travel to uniball options on this setup. Several of us IN UT are running the same with no complaints.
http://www.roughcountry.com/nissan-upper-control-arms-864.html

As for skibum's question on rear spacers, I started out with 1.5" but ended up changing to the 2" as the front & rear didn't look so proportional with the narrower ones on.

Here's a close-up of the front suspension, Titan LCA's, CV's, M205 w/arb locker, Rough country UCA's, Radflo coilovers, radflo bumpstops, extended brakelines.



I think Greg had it calculated that stock travel was under 6" and similar TS setup was 11" & change. All I know is riding in a stock or mild lift compared to now is a very noticeable difference, even more so than my stock setup upgrading to PRG adv coilover kit I had previously. You can drive it pretty hard and catch some air :Wow1: (at least when the wife isn't there)

As for the front bumper, it's replacement is currently under construction right now to a similar one that will be lighter & tighter to the body & LED lighting integrated into it. Going to 35's & 2" body lift, and the old bumper had fixed height mounting and didn't want to cut it up. Also just replaced my rear bumper. Busy year!

Yes, a titan swap isn't cheap, but I think it was worth it!

 

[Ripper]

Dave, can you PM me some pics of where you mounted the remote resi brackets for the front coilovers? Thanks.

 

[jhughes3281]

It may be easier to swap to a M205 than you think, providing the gearing matches. The inner CV shafts on my 2006 Frontier (assume same for the X) will mate to the Titan inner CV which is the only difference on connecting the half shafts/front diff. That being said, if you redo your half shafts to have the X outer CV's and Titan inner CV's, then all you are looking at is a bolt on project. No need to swap any suspension.

And before anyone questions as I don't have a large post count here, I am well known on ClubFrontier as well as a frequent visitor on TNX.

 

[wreckdiver1321]

It may be easier to swap to a M205 than you think, providing the gearing matches. The inner CV shafts on my 2006 Frontier (assume same for the X) will mate to the Titan inner CV which is the only difference on connecting the half shafts/front diff. That being said, if you redo your half shafts to have the X outer CV's and Titan inner CV's, then all you are looking at is a bolt on project. No need to swap any suspension.

And before anyone questions as I don't have a large post count here, I am well known on ClubFrontier as well as a frequent visitor on TNX.

Just because you have a low post count doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[skibum315]

The inner CV shafts on my 2006 Frontier (assume same for the X) will mate to the Titan inner CV which is the only difference on connecting the half shafts/front diff. That being said, if you redo your half shafts to have the X outer CV's and Titan inner CV's, then all you are looking at is a bolt on project. No need to swap any suspension.

That's really very interesting ... there was discussion on the same topic over on the equivalent thread on NewX (see post #20), and assertions were made to the contrary! Sounds like it may be another occurrence of nuanced differences between years - the two reports (yours and that one) need not be mutually exclusive.

[::Goes to read things a bit more closely::]

On closer inspection of what's written, it looks like the report was on going the other way (r180 inner CV on Titan half-shaft) from how you did (Titan inner CV on r180 half-shaft) ... so, given that, I'd ask: how's the fit of the m205 inner CV on those r180 half-shafts? The report from the CF/NewX thread seemed to indicate the m205 shafts being too large for the r180 CVs, so does your Titan CV fit the r180 shaft loosely?

 

[mikeJKUR]

No. The inner C.V joints on the frontier/X are not the same as the Titan.

 

[skibum315]

The question was directed at jhughes ... I'm well aware the two joints are different (all you have to do is look at them, to realize that ... the m205 joints have a bolted diff-side mounting flange and the r180 joints have a splined diff-side stub shaft that inserts into the differential). However, he (jhughes) mentioned that he had taken the inner cv from his m205 shafts and put them on the inner side of his r180 shafts; allowing him to run an m205 in the narrower Xterra/Frontier stock suspension width, without needing to purchase the expensive and hard to find V8 Pathfinder specific half-shaft assemblies.

Given that the common wisdom is that one can't do the reverse (mount r180 inner cvs on the inner side of Titan shafts), due to a shaft-size mismatch, I was curious as to the fit of the Titan cv on the r180 shaft.