Camper Thermal Engineering for Extreme Cold & High-Altitude: Arctic Antarctica Tibet

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Camper Thermal Engineering for Extreme Cold & High-Altitude: Arctic Antarctica Tibet

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Vehicle and Camper Thermal Engineering for Extreme Cold & High Altitude:
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For Expedition Travel in the Arctic, Antarctica, and Across Tibet



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This thread is for anyone who is interested in the thermal engineering of expedition vehicles and campers designed to travel either at high-altitude, or in extreme-cold temperatures, or both.

More specifically, this thread is for vehicles designed to travel in:

• The Canadian Prairies and Arctic
• Interior Alaska
  
• Iceland and Greenland
• Norway, Sweden, and Finland
• Northern Russia and Siberia
  
• Across the Tibetan Plateau
  
• Across South America's Altiplano
  
• Across Antarctica

Postings, images, and discussion of any and all vehicles that meet the above criteria are welcome. The more pictures the better!

Both tracked and wheeled vehicles are welcome, and so too all sizes, from motorcycles to 10 x 10 trucks. The first five or six pages should give a good idea of the kinds of vehicles that this thread has in mind: everything from 4x4 Truck Campers, to Zetros and Tatra 6x6 expedition vehicles, to Foremost 6x6 “Terrabuses”, to Hagglund BV206 tracked vehicles, and Prinoth and Pisten Bully "snow groomers", the kind that work in Antarctica as crevasse-detection vehicles equipped with Ground Penetrating Radar.....

They just need to be vehicles that seem deliberately designed for extreme cold, and/or extreme altitude:








In addition to serving as a gallery of such vehicles, this thread hopes to discuss the thermal engineering and equipment solutions that such vehicles have arrived at in dealing with extreme cold and/or extreme high-altitude. This includes power-train solutions (e.g. hydronic engine heaters, heaters for gearboxes and fuel-tanks, etc.), as well as camper heating solutions.

For camper heating solutions, a good place to start is the “High Altitude Heating” thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...s-the-BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating , which addresses the technical details of Eberspracher verus Webasto heaters, for instance. The difference between that thread and this, is that this thread is perhaps more "speculative", more interested in possible solutions derived from applications (like Antarctic exploration) that are somewhat removed from more common kinds of overlanding experience. As such, this thread is interested in vehicle types – for instance, tracked vehicles used for Antarctic exploration – that are not usually considered as possible precedents for more “mainstream” overlanding. So too, this thread is interested in “total vehicle solutions”, solutions that address high-altitude and extreme cold as they affect engine choice and fuel choice, for instance, in addition to heating inside the camper. Hence the phrase "Thermal Engineering" in the thread-title, to suggest the broader ambit of possible sub-topics.

Furthermore, this thread will be very interested in hybrid technologies: cutting-edge, innovative power trains that are specifically designed to cope with extreme cold and/or high-altitude. So this thread should be thought of as more of a "hypothetical design" thread, as opposed to "practical solutions that I can purchase now" sort of thread.

This thread welcomes "blue sky", out-of-the-box thinking, surprising (but still relevant) tangents, and unusual ideas. I am hoping that if someone stumbles upon this thread and sees that "blue-sky" vehicle-design for Siberia, the Tibetan plateau, the Andes Altiplano, and Antarctica are welcome topics of conversation, then they might offer insider information for innovative camper-heating and engine-heating solutions in these contexts. Indeed, I hope to engage the enthusiasms of techies who are living/working in Antarctica, who are a bit bored, and who might be happy to blog on ExPo during Antarctica's long, cold, very dark winter....

In short, the goal of this thread is simply to assemble lots of ideas, information, and images relevant to the topic title, and its ambit is deliberately wide, not narrow.


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1. Where the first 6 pages came from.....


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The first 6 pages of this thread duplicate a sequence of posts that at one point appeared in the “High Altitude Heating” thread. Many of the posts still appear there, especially those posted by people other than myself. But in the next few days, as I transfer imagery from that thread to this, most of my own posts on pages 8, 9, and 10 of “High Altitude Heating” will be deleted.


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2. Why This Thread: Casting a Wider Net


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After discussing the merits and altitude limits of Webasto, Truma, and Eberspracher heaters in the "High Altitude Heating" thread, and the various ways to possibly get around those limits, it seemed that there was not much more to be said about standard fuel-driven products available on the market. Most standard solutions in terms of altitude specifically have now been discussed in that thread. Sure, it's interesting to know about solutions that work in Colorado or the Alps. But as already established in the thread, Truma, Websasto, and Eberspracher diesel heaters are likely to work just fine up to 10 - 11,000 feet, and so they are adequate for most North American and European camping. Real technical challenges only begin at altitudes above that, i.e. at Tibetan and Altiplano heights.

As for more innovative concepts, there does not seem to be a great deal of information on the web about electric film/panel heater solutions in RVs, as first proposed by NeverEnough:

To ditto an earlier comment, electric heating is not influenced by altitude. And having lived in Ecuador for several years above 10,000ft, not all high altitude environments are that cold. As long as you've got access to the amps, I like electric radiant film/panels. It's very simple, weighs almost nothing, and is maintenance-free. The setup in my camper works great down to about 20 degrees F. Colder than that I have to turn on the back-up forced-air propane unit to keep the inside temp at 70. And my camper is quite voluminous. I'm even considering adding more radiant film in the ceiling to increase the output. My next build will likely be all-electric for heating, cooking, cooling. A large PV array and access to two big gensets (camper generator and truck alternator), as well as shore-power access and easy to maintenance-free AGM batts has worked for me.

http://eastcoastradiantheat.com/rollnWarm.html

This is the product I used, but from a different distributor (http://www.warmup.com/us/electric-floor-heating-mats.phtml). I don't think WarmUp distributes the product anymore, which I believe is manufactured in Korea. There are a number of different "film" solutions available, as well as a number of thin "matts" that use wires instead of carbon film for resistance. It's important to do the math with electric radiant solutions and most have 10-15 watts/sqft. output. I have two "zones", each tied to a dedicated 20amp branch circuit (they're actually secondary loads via Automatic Load Shedding, ALS, circuits so demand loads, like the microwave, shut off the heat temporarily, which keeps the panel size down). In my case, each draws about 14 amps.

Another option, relatively new, are these, of which there are also several manufacturers and configurations. My next build will likely incorporate a mix of film and panels: http://ducoterra.com/radiant-panel-information/

Even the most expensive, purpose-built, sophisticated expedition motorhomes like the Doleoni MAN-KAT still tend to opt for standard "Webasto" diesel heating solutions -- see http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ and post #63 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page7 . So it seemed useful to broaden the discussion just a bit, by introducing the notion of "extreme-cold vehicles".

What I am hoping is that as this thread accumulates with examples of extreme-cold vehicles, perhaps many more innovative, all-electric heating solutions will emerge as well. In the meantime, if anyone reading this has more information about electric film/panel solutions for heating in RVs, please post!

Now the "High Altitude Heating" thread did not seem the right venue to explore extreme-cold vehicles, because the thread's title only mentions high altitude, and not extreme cold. And as NeverEnough suggests in the first quote above, extreme-altitude does not necessarily mean extreme-cold, because a high-altitude region in the tropics might still be rather temperate.

For instance, the lower slopes of Kilimanjaro near the equator are covered with "subalpline rain forest" up to about 3400 m, or roughly 11,000 feet -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kilimanjaro , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Kenya#Climate , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Tanzania#Climate , http://www.hydrology-amsterdam.nl/researchpages/Tanzania.html , http://www.unep.org/dewa/Assessment.../MtKilimanjaroForests/tabid/6762/Default.aspx , http://www.unep.org/dewa/Assessment...ngicecapofKilimanjaro/tabid/6967/Default.aspx , https://www.kilimanjaro.biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de/project/Studysite.aspx , http://www.tanzaniaparks.com/kili.html , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7919100.stm , http://tanzaniaculturaltourism.go.tz/nkweseko.htm , http://tanzaniaculturaltourism.go.tz/nkweshoo.htm , http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/tanzania_kilimanjaro , http://digitalnomad.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/16/climbing-kilimanjaro/ , http://digitalnomad.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/12/acclimatizing/ , http://www.kilicam.com/index.htm , http://www.ewpnet.com/kilimanjaro/flora/index.htm , http://www.natureflip.com/mount-kilimanjaro , http://imranjaafar.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/tanzania-mount-kilimanjaro/ , http://www.smartafricantravel.com/cms/mt-kilimanjaro-trekking-info , http://theclassictours.com/tours-destinations/tanzania-tours/about-mount-kilimanjaro/ , http://ccgi.piratefrog.plus.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=108&Itemid=158 , http://davidmcdowell.org/mountaineering/kilimanjaro/ , http://www.mountainmadness.com/blog/2011/07/18/climb-for-a-cause-kilimanjaro-team-reaches-summit , http://suraflin.blogspot.com/2013/07/mount-kilimanjaro-in-tanzania-is-africas.html , http://www.georgefisher.com/Personal/Kilimanjaro.htm , http://bobholdsworth.net/kilimanjaro/ , http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm/...in)/field/all/mode/exact/conn/and/cosuppress/ , http://davidcolemanphoto.photoshelter.com/image/I0000wFbrztvQhGI , and http://twistedsifter.com/2012/03/picture-of-the-day-mount-kilimanjaro-from-above/ :








[video=youtube;HGAdWJTxVsw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGAdWJTxVsw [/video]

Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNE25uHYxf8 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0n91lscVlw , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Pi9JZqp1c , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqIimgMK8Wc , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuzyTBfr5bw , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JtEXpXIyhg .

Kilimanjaro only gets ice-and-snow-covered well above 14,000 feet, especially now, given global warming.

They say that it always feels like spring in the valley of Mexico city, 7,400 feet above sea-level, although unfortunately, I have never been.... ..And the Altiplano in Bolivia is not nearly as cold as the Tibetan plateau, because the Tibetan plateau is higher, with an average elevation exceeding 14,800 feet, and drivable roads 15,000 - 18,000 feet high -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Plateau . So too, the Tibetan plateau is much further away from the equator than the Altiplano.

Of course, generally speaking, high-altitude does tend to mean colder temperatures. As SG1 suggested in the High Altitude Heating thread, even in Bolivia a big problem on the Altiplano (average height, 12,300 feet) is low-quality diesel fuel becoming unusable because of the cold -- see post #65 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page7 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altiplano :

The simple things will defeat you...... dirty fuel and the fact that we could not get cold weather diesel. Therefore the diesel had the consistency of honey after a cold night. Unless the diesel filters etc. were heated nothing would work until mid morning when it got warmer. Therefore DiploStrats proposal to use a small separate diesel tank in the warm inside of the cabin makes perfect sense.

So the problem of extreme high-altitude and the problem of extreme cold tend to be linked. Furthermore, the camper heating systems in many expedition motorhomes tend to be intertwined with engine heating, and vice-versa. A well-designed system will not only heat the camper, but will enable the engine to start at cold temperatures at high altitude.

However, given the focus of its title, the "High Altitude Heating" thread did not seem like a good place to explore such connections further. It seemed better to start a completely new thread, in which it would be possible to post examples of vehicles that have been designed with extreme Arctic and Antarctic cold in mind, and not necessarily altitude.


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3. My Personal Interest in Vehicles That Can Handle Extreme Cold and High Altitude


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I also started this thread for personal reasons. I am a transportation designer completing an MFA, in which I am designing a large, 6x6, globally capable, "Round the World" or "RTW" motorhome -- see the thread, "Fully Integrated MAN or TATRA 6x6 or 8x8 Expedition RV w Rigid Torsion Free Frame", here on ExPo at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame . As my sense of the design specifications for the vehicle have developed, it became clear to me that a true RTW needs to be able to cross the Tibetan plateau, and it needs to be able to handle extreme cold weather in Siberia and northern Canada.

It's obvious enough that an RTW motorhome must be able to handle a variety of road conditions. As the "Fully Integrated" thread developed, however, it became apparent that an RTW expedition vehicle does not necessarily need to be a "true off-road" motorhome, i.e. the kind based on a UniMog chassis. But an RTW does need to be a "bad-road" motorhome, a term I first heard used by Peter Thompson, to describe Mañana, his fully integrated expedition vehicle built on a MAN chassis -- see posts #212 and #214 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page22 .

Less obvious is that a truly globally capable expedition motorhome needs to be able to handle serious altitude. Not just 10,000 feet in Colorado or the Alps, but so too 13,500 feet in Bolivia, and 14,500 - 18,000 feet in Tibet.

Why? Well, because the Chinese are spending the US dollar equivalent of billions upon billions on Tibetan infrastructure development. Within our lifetimes it will probably become possible to drive on a 4-lane expressway all the way from Beijing to Lhasa, and it will probably become possible to take a passenger train all the way from Beijing to Delhi, by way of Lhasa and Kathmandu. Tibet is set to become the Switzerland of Asia, a transportation fulcrum that will prove a popular short-cut for overlanders wanting to reach central China from India, or vice-versa. Overlanding companies already run trips that do so, and these so-called "expeditions" travel most of the route via good paved roads. Those roads will only get bigger and better, and so a true RTW motorhome for the 21st century needs to be "Tibet capable".

For further discussion, see post #21 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page3 ; posts #41 - #51 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page5 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page6 ; posts #348 - #380 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page35 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page36 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page37 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page38 ; and posts #412 - #425 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page42 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page43 .

In addition, a truly capable expedition motorhome needs to be able to handle extreme cold. Some might not enjoy winter landscapes, but many of us do. So the ability to drive through Siberia, the Canadian Prairies, or central Alaska in the middle of winter seems an important design specification. And so too the ability to cross the Tibetan plateau in January, not just in June.

In Manitoba and Saskatchewan in the winter, overnight temperatures can get as low as −40 °C (−40 °F) on several days, and the temperature may remain below −18 °C (0 °F) for weeks. In Alberta, extreme winter minimum temperatures are possible as low as −54 °C (−65 °F) in northern Alberta, and −46 °C (−51 °F) in southern Alberta. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Canada , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Manitoba , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan#Climate , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta#Climate . Interior Alaska (e.g. Fairbanks) can get as cold as −60 °F (−51.1 °C), and Siberia averages −25 °C (−13 °F) in January. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Alaska and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia .

Now granted, because of climate change, the Tibetan Plateau is getting warmer -- see http://www.economist.com/news/scien...ird-largest-area-ice-about-undergo-systematic , http://www.theguardian.com/environm...limate-change-tibetan-plateau-audio-slideshow , and http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/ee1f3f80-1029-11e3-a258-00144feabdc0.html#slide0 . But even so, winter temperatures on the Tibetan plateau also can also drop as low as −40 °C (−40 °F) -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Plateau .

Again, the Altiplano in Bolivia is closer to the equator than Tibet, not as high, and warmer, with summer temperatures ranging from 12 to 24°C , and winter temperatures from -20 to 10°C -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altiplano#Climatic_zones , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Bolivia#Climate , and http://www.explorebolivia.com/our-country/map-of-bolivia/ .

Here are some maps of annual mean temperature, as well as some more specific winter climate maps. The first three usefully illustrate why Tibet is often described as a "Third Pole":







This next set illustrates how the Altiplano and the Andes in general are colder than most of South America, but not nearly as cold as Tibet:






See http://anthropology.ua.edu/blogs/ant475/category/adaptability/ , http://www.sage.wisc.edu/atlas/maps.php?datasetid=54&includerelatedlinks=1&dataset=54 , http://www.povertyeducation.org/geography-and-economic-growth.html , http://weatheradvance.com/2012/12/2...erifyi/640x480_currents_nam_temperature_i1-3/ , http://stephenliddell.co.uk/2013/12/04/lost-in-the-world-of-maps/ , http://www.movehub.com/blog/moving-abroad-checklist , http://faculty.smu.edu/bakewell/BAKEWELL/period.html , http://www.sage.wisc.edu/atlas/maps.php?datasetid=35&includerelatedlinks=1&dataset=35 , http://www.explorebolivia.com/our-country/map-of-bolivia/ , and http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/bolivia/maps.htm .

Yes, for many overlanders such extreme winter temperatures are a bit academic. And even in the case of a "Round the World" motorhome, one could organize travel so that one spends summers closer to the poles, and winters closer to the equator.

But very cold places in the middle of winter covered with snow can be quite beautiful. For instance, just a few years ago I was in St. Petersburg, Russia, in the middle of winter, and the visit coincided with an unusual stretch of solid sunshine for 6 days. St. Petersburg is the "Paris of the North", and highly recommended in all seasons -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg . But there was something particularly compelling about the standard Russian-imperial color scheme for buildings (gold + blue), set against snow. Took some amazing photographs on that trip.

Fairly recently the Turtle expedition also crossed Siberia in the winter -- see http://turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle-iv/ . And lots of expedition vehicles are designed to handle the same.

So this thread is for overlanders who are interested in the thermal engineering of vehicles that can handle the "blue" and "purple" regions in the above maps of the northern hemisphere, and the green regions in the southern hemisphere. This thread is for overlanders who are curious about Tibet, the Altiplano, northern Canada, and Siberia, especially during winter. As posts in this thread will make clear, these are desirable destinations for many, who then need vehicles built to suit. This thread is for them.


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4. Possible Sub-Topics for This Thread


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Now although the next 6 pages are packed with discussion and images of various vehicles used in Arctic and Antarctic conditions, these pages barely scratch the surface.

Just a few google searches with various combinations of the words in the title of this thread, turns up the following:


Antarctic Vehicles

1. "Modes of Transport" in Antarctica, in general – see http://travelingantarctica.com/anta.../travelling-in-antarctica-modes-of-transport/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Antarctica , http://classroom.antarctica.gov.au/working/vehicles-getting-around , http://www.bowserlab.org/antarctica/travel_graphics/travel.htm , and http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=cars-on-antarctica_1386687919 .

2. Some short articles about specific vehicle types used by Australia in Antarctica – see http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...ansport/station-support-and-resupply-vehicles , http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...-machinery-used-for-building-and-construction , http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...d-support-vehicles/hagglunds-tracked-vehicles , http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...nodwell-and-foremost-pioneer-tracked-vehicles , http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living.../ground-transport/field-support-vehicles/quad , http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...d-transport/field-support-vehicles/snowmobile , and http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...ground-transport/field-support-vehicles/sleds .


Arctic Vehicles

3. Vehicles used in the Arctic – http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/16-002-x/2009001/article/10820-eng.htm , http://expeditionportal.com/tag/arctic/ , http://expeditionportal.com/the-trucks-of-iceland-2/ , http://www.arctictracks.com/hagglunds-bv206/ , http://www.wired.com/2009/05/back-to-the-arctic-in-a-solar-car/ , http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...phibious-vehicles-take-on-the-arctic-11877750 , http://www.departures.com/articles/test-driving-the-new-saab-9-5-in-the-arctic-circle , http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-road-to-remorses-the-road-to-divorces-feature , and http://www.thearctic.is/articles/overviews/homeland/enska/index.htm .

4. Vehicles for Canadian Army Artic travel – see http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120625/DEFREG02/306250001/Canada-Ramps-Up-Arctic-Arsenal , http://o.canada.com/news/national/c...-for-the-arctic-but-army-left-out-in-the-cold , http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/...hicles-used-in-cold-weather-training/hup7wgzs , http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...orces-ice-plan-to-purchase-vehicle-for-arctic , http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living...stics/ground-transport/field-support-vehicles , and http://www.ucalgary.ca/arcticexpedition/muskox .


Vehicles and Extreme Cold

5. Prepping overland vehicles for extreme cold driving – see http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/4wd-overland-tech/extreme-winter-car-preparation-52999 , http://www.overlandtravel.org.uk/7.html , http://askyakutia.com/2009/10/how-do-you-prepare-your-car-for-the-winter-in-yakutia/ , http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/seasonal/winter_motoring.html , http://oprmc.com/hl/?/27871/Prepare-for-Winter-Driving , http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forums/showthread.php/40524-Extreme-cold-vehicle-prep? , http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/foru...-severe-cold-weather-vehicle-preparation.html , and http://www.ready.gov/winter-weather .

6. The unique demands made on vehicles when the temperature drops below -40° Celsius, written by a disgruntled Canadian who is angry at the car companies – see http://www.minus40.info/ice/frozentruck.html .

7. The effects of extreme cold weather on Hybrid or Electric car batteries – http://www.teslamotors.com/fr_CA/forum/forums/cold-arctic-weather-and-battery-life , http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures , and http://qz.com/202463/meet-the-guy-w...-in-the-world-and-lives-in-the-arctic-circle/ .


RV Travel, Camping, and Living in the Winter

8. Winter RV Travel http://www.camping-canada.com/winter_rving_e.asp , http://www.canadream.com/WinterRentals/FAQ/ , http://www.canadianliving.com/life/...4_destinations_for_your_winter_rv_holiday.php , http://www.rv-life-and-travel.com/winter-rving.html , http://bdbud.com/winter-rv-travel-tips/ , http://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/2008/11/winter_rv_driving.php , http://www.rvadventure-usa.com/winter-travel-rv.html , http://www.streetdirectory.com/trav...s/traveling_by_rv_tips_for_winter_travel.html , http://www.rvtravel.com/publish/rvinginthewinter.shtml , and http://gorving.ca/winter-rv-travel/ .

9. Living and/or Camping in an RV during the winter: http://tinyhouseblog.com/yourstory/winter-rv-living-alaska/ , http://www.camper-van-fun.com/cold-weather-camping.html , http://www.campervantastic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45 , https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120425165153AA2uM30 , http://1033uscountry.com/tips-for-surviving-the-brutal-winter-months-in-an-rv-in-north-dakota/ , http://www.nd.gov/des/uploads/resources/657/winterliving-rvs.pdf , http://www.your-rv-lifestyle.com/winter-rving.html , http://web.ncf.ca/bf250/rvwinter.html , http://www.rverscorner.com/wintercamp.html , http://www.fmca.com/polks-top-7/2818-polks-top-7-tips-for-cold-weather-rving.html , http://www.ebay.com/gds/Your-RV-Series-Full-Time-Cold-Weather-RV-Living-/10000000009139563/g.html , http://gypsyjournal.net/cold_weather_rving.htm , http://www.rvwest.com/rv_living/article/wintering_in_your_rv , http://www.motorhome-city.co.uk/motorhome-blog-article-217.htm , http://gerbeans.blogspot.com/2010/02/full-time-rv-living-keeping-warm-in.html , http://www.campingrvbc.com/blog/rv-adventure-part-1-first-time-rving-in-winter/ , http://www.fulltime-rving.com/winter-rv-living.html , http://www.happyvagabonds.com/Rving Guide/RV-Camping-In-The-Winter.htm , http://www.rvliving.net/winter.htm , http://www.marxrv.com/skp/survive.htm , http://www.livestrong.com/article/561652-winter-camping-in-a-travel-trailer/ , http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ving-in-a-camper-van-in-the-alps-for-2-months , http://www.permies.com/t/10839/green-building/Staying-Warm-Living-Tin-keeping , http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/24160748.cfm , http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ge...g-questions/368269-camper-trailer-winter.html , and http://www.heartlandowners.org/show...amp-Dont-s-For-Living-In-Camper-During-Winter .

10. Prepping an RV for Winter Living: http://www.minotnd.org/pdf/flood/rvs.pdf , http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/winterize-rv , http://buildacampervan.com/blog/keeping-your-campervan-warm-in-winter/ , http://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/2008/10/full_time_winter_rv.php , http://www.aneclecticmind.com/2013/11/20/prepping-my-rv-for-winter-living/ , http://www.byexample.net/projects/current/winterizing/ , http://ozarknick.blogspot.com/2011/07/camper-living-in-winter.html , http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-how-to/trailer-tech/cold-weather-rv-camping-guide/ , http://www.motorhome.com/rv-how-to/10335/ , http://grandeprairie.happytrailsrv.ca/winter_rv_living.aspx , http://www.trails.com/how_7877_use-camper-winter.html , http://www.cross-country-trips.com/tips/winter-camping , http://www.beckleysrvs.com/blog/post/Winter-RV-Tips.aspx , http://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/2009/12/winter_rv.php , http://homeiswherethe5thwheelis.blogspot.it/p/preparing-living-in-rv-during-iowa.html , http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=56493.0 , http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com...motorhome-this-winter-winterization-questions , http://www.rvusa.com/forum/vbulleti...rv-tips-tricks/4999-best-rv-for-winter-living , and http://www.trails.com/guide_6726_best-rv-winter.html .

11. Winter camper heating – http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/93429-Heating-my-Arctic-Fox-camper , http://campervanthings.com/2013/11/23/winter-campervanning/ , http://thenewlighterlife.com/the-cost-of-heating-the-rv-during-the-winte/ , and http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modul...&start=0&sid=a212ed129bb986bc67d46e071777a820 .

12. Some YouTube videos and playlists for winter camping: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9657C37A61335087 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynwHHSsdkpk , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5RGlcLSrM4 , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yewsD-EkQr8 .


Extreme Cold Highways

13. Highways in northern Canada, Alaska, Norway, and Siberia, and “Ice Roads” around the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highways_in_Alaska , http://wikitravel.org/en/Alaska_Highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Parks_Highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart-Cassiar_Highway , http://expeditionportal.com/overland-routes-the-cassiar-highway/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Nunavut ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_Highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowknife_Highway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klondike_Highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dempster_Highway , http://travelyukon.com/media/newsroom/yukon-feature-stories/dempster-highway-arctic , http://wikitravel.org/en/Dalton_Highway , http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/46586-To-the-Arctic-Ocean-via-the-Dalton-Road , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Campbell_Highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tourist_Routes_in_Norway , http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/92962-Winter-Biking-Above-Arctic-Circle-N-Scandinavia , http://www.norwegian.com/magazine/features/2013/02/following-the-arctic-highway , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Highway , http://expeditionportal.com/driving-in-russia/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumbaikal_Highway , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_road .


Extreme Cold Expeditions: Arctic

14. Top Gear’s “Polar Challenge” expedition, which involved racing Toyota Hiluxes converted by Arctic Trucks to the North Pole – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear:_Polar_Special , http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007v18p , http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/cold-snap-polar-top-gear-clarkson-may-2011-01-31 , http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-gear-polar-special-hd_part-1_2012655.htm?__federated=1 , http://www.4x4offroads.com/magnetic-north-pole-offroad.html , and http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4877 :


[video=youtube;WNkvASxfEWQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNkvASxfEWQ [/video]


15. Landrover’s “Pole of Cold” expedition across Siberia in the wintertime – see http://poleofcold.com , http://poleofcold.com/about/ , http://poleofcold.com/route/, http://poleofcold.com/map-view/ , http://www.jaguarlandrover.com/gl/en/responsible-business/news/2013/05/21/pole-of-cold/ , http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/en-in/land-rover/news/2013/10/lr_def_pole_of_cold_241013/ , http://www.landrovergrip.com/pole-cold-expedition-gets-ready-winter-siberia/ , http://www.montane.co.uk/news/pole-of-cold-expedition , http://jalopnik.com/icy-siberia-wont-stop-this-land-rover-defender-1452002385 , http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/20...nter-across-Siberia-to-the-Pole-of-Cold-9233/ , http://www.rgs.org/OurWork/Grants/E...nd+independent+travel+grants/Pole+of+Cold.htm , http://expeditionportal.com/land-rover-and-rgs-award-annual-bursary-to-pole-of-cold-expedition/ , and http://expeditionportal.com/pole-of-cold-expedition-prepares-to-depart/ .

16. A Russia to Canada Arctic crossing, over the ice – see http://expeditionportal.com/news-russian-vehicies-to-attempt-russia-to-canada-arctic-crossing/ .

17. The "Northern Wolves" expedition across Russia – see http://fr.ria.ru/insolites/20130506/198237849.html and http://expeditionportal.com/news-ru...-entered-into-guinness-book-of-world-records/.

18. The Turtle Expedition across Siberia – see http://turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle-iv/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/introduction-2/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-1/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-2/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-3/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-4/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-5/ , and http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-6/ .

19. Expedition West's "Arctic Ocean Expedition", Winter 2007 – see http://expeditionportal.com/arctic-ocean-expedition-a-solo-vehicle-adventure-to-lands-end/ , http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/965-Arctic-Ocean-Expedition-Winter-2007 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/adventures/arctic_ocean/planning.html , http://www.expeditionportal.com/adventures/arctic_ocean/ , http://www.expeditionportal.com/adventures/arctic_ocean/trip_updates.html , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/adventures/arctic_ocean/trip_updates.html

20. Expedition 7 in the Arctic and Antarctic – see http://expeditionportal.com/expeditions-7-arrival-at-the-arctic-ocean/ , http://expeditionportal.com/expeditions-7-launches-new-website/ , http://expeditionportal.com/expeditions-7-completes-bid-on-south-pole/ , and http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/?pageid=5172 .

21. Merceded Benz's "Arctic Drive" in Alaska with Sprinter vans – see http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/19174/mercedes-benz_sprinter_arctic_drive_diary-day_one/ , http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/19183/mercedes-benz_sprinter_arctic_drive_diary-day_two/ , http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/arti...inter_arctic_drive_diary-days_three_and_four/ , and http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/gall...inter_arctic_drive_diary-days_three_and_four/ . Also see http://www5.mercedes-benz.com/en/ve...nce-test-for-mercedes-benz-buses-in-lappland/ .


Extreme Cold Expeditions: Antarctica

22. One of the more important sources of news about Antarctic / Arctic exploration, seems to be “Explorers Web”, under “Polar” specifically – see http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/ , http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=cars-on-antarctica_1386687919 , http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=australian-mawson-centenary-expedition-u_137789483 , http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=south-pole-2013-14-doug-stoup-and-parker_138054059 , http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=chinas-growing-presence-in-antarctica_1384545188 , http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=exweb-interview-with-antony-jinman_1385561998 , etc.

23. But, of course, there's also ExPo covering the same – see http://expeditionportal.com/tag/antarctica/ , http://expeditionportal.com/the-antarctic-expedition-season-is-underway/ , http://expeditionportal.com/records-and-firsts-achieved-in-antarctica-this-season/ , http://expeditionportal.com/2013-scott-expedition-weather/ , http://expeditionportal.com/2013-scott-expedition-fantasy-vs-reality/ , http://expeditionportal.com/2013-scott-expedition-slog/ , http://expeditionportal.com/2013-scott-expedition-tent-bound/ , http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/62114-Internet-on-a-ship-in-Antarctica , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...of-Doomed-Expedition-Discovered-in-Antarctica , etc.

24. The Australasian Antarctic Centenary Expedition, the longest ever journey by wheeled vehicle across sea ice in Antarctica – see http://www.theguardian.com/science/...ntarctic-expedition-was-worth-it-chris-turney , http://www.theguardian.com/science/antarctica-live/2013/dec/20/sea-ice-mawsons-huts-antarctica , http://www.theguardian.com/science/antarctica-live/2013/dec/23/longest-drive-sea-ice-antarctica , http://www.theguardian.com/world/antarctica-live/2013/dec/29/antarctica-expedition-ice-wait-rescue , http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25519059 , http://christurney.com/Australasian_Antarctic_Expedition.html , http://www.ccrc.unsw.edu.au/news/news/2013-05-06_antarcticexpedition.html , and http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3898858.htm .

25. The Antarctica Challenge Expedition, the first 4x4 vehicles to reach the South Pole – see http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/3632 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4925/catId/20/offset/8&nc=1 , http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2010-12/south-pole/ , http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/toyota-hilux-6x6-arctic-trucks-first-drive-2013-11-11 , http://www.4x4offroads.com/toyota-hilux-south-pole.html , http://expeditionportal.com/hey-lets-drive-to-the-south-pole-okay-deal/ , and http://www.caradvice.com.au/22091/arctic-trucks-hilux-conquer-south-pole/ .

26. The Moon Regan TranAntarctic vehicular expedition to the South Pole and back, in record time, using a biofuel, propeller-driven, ice-buggy – see http://www.transantarcticexpedition.com , http://www.transantarcticexpedition.com/index.php/expedition , http://www.transantarcticexpedition.com/index.php/andrew-moon-andrew-regan-team/expedition-team/ , http://www.transantarcticexpedition.com/index.php/civ , http://www.transantarcticexpedition.com/index.php/galleries/ , https://www.facebook.com/pages/Moon-Regan-TransAntarctic-Expedition/131056743595286 , http://www.bbc.com/travel/feature/20110819-polar-express , http://www.livescience.com/29912-antarctic-race-crossing-fastest-101217.html , http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-dep...ing-the-moon-regan-expedition/1005532.article , http://www.treehugger.com/natural-s...pt-ice-vehicle-for-antarctica-expedition.html , http://www.earthlyenergy.eu/news/the-moon-regan-transantarctic-expedition.html , http://www.explorapoles.org/expeditions/detail/moon_regan_transantarctic_expedition1 , and http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_11-6-2010-12-4-0 .

27. The “Zero South” expedition to the South Pole, using two hybrid-electric Polar Transfer Vehicles with repurposed Hummer chassis, vehicles that will burn no fossil fuels – see http://www.zerosouth.com , http://www.zerosouth.com/about ,http://www.zerosouth.com/teams , http://www.zerosouth.com/sponsors , http://www.zerosouth.com/vehicles , http://www.zerosouth.com/gallery , http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/02/sema-2010-zero-south-biodiesel-electric-hummer-shows-its-guts/ , http://theawesomer.com/zero-south-hummer/70173/ , http://jalopnik.com/5680789/zero-souththe-biodiesel-electric-tracked-hummer , and http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/1106dp_diesel_electric_south_pole_hummer_h1/?__federated=1 .


Tourism in Antarctica

28. For tourism travel in Antarctica, see http://wikitravel.org/en/South_Pole , http://wikitravel.org/en/Antarctica , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Antarctica , http://www.wikihow.com/Travel-to-Antarctica , and http://www.coolantarctica.com/Travel/antarctica_travel_home.htm .

29. For adventure tour operators, of course there’s Quark Expeditions, a long-standing Arctic / Antarctic specialist – see http://www.quarkexpeditions.com/en/arctic?gclid=CKaQuYKRvsACFSEcwwoddDkA8w and http://www.quarkexpeditions.com/en/antarctic . But there are other providers every bit as interesting. For instance, Oceanwide has unusual trips like ski-trekking across South Georgia, in the footsteps of Shackleton – see http://www.oceanwide-expeditions.co...ia/activity/shackleton-traverse-ski-trekking/ ; or visiting the Ross Sea ice shelf and McMurdo base – see http://www.oceanwide-expeditions.com/stories/expert-review/advanced-antarctica-the-ross-sea/ . Most Antarctic cruises confine themselves to just the peninsula and South Georgia.

30. And then there are various adventure travel companies that will take you to the South Pole, geographic or magnetic, by various means – see http://www.polar-quest.com/trip/fly-to-the-south-pole/ , http://www.icetrek.com/join-a-trip/south-pole-and-antarctica.html , http://polarexplorers.com/expeditions/south-pole/full-south-pole-ski , http://www.adventure-network.com/experiences/ski-south-pole—hercules , http://www.adventureconsultants.com/adventure/SouthPoleAlltheWay/ , and http://www.mtnprofessionals.com/polar-expeditions/south-pole-full-ski-trip.php .


Arctic Trucks

31. For Arctic/Antarctic land-vehicle-based tourism specifically (for instance, excluding cruise ships), the market leader is no doubt Arctic Trucks.

Arctic Trucks began as a vehicle conversion company, but admits that it has become something more like a travel company – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Trucks , http://www.arctictrucks.is , http://www.arctictrucks.com , http://www.arctictrucks-experience.is/AboutUs/ , http://www.defence-arctictrucks.com , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=10659 , http://arctictrucks.is/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=9293 , , http://www.arctictrucks.com/Frontpage/Brands/Toyota/Hilux , http://www.arctictrucks.com/Frontpage/Brands/Toyota/Hilux/AT35-15-Wheels , http://www.arctictrucks.com/Frontpage/Brands/Toyota/Hilux/AT35-17-Wheels , http://www.arctictrucks.com/pages/4701 , http://www.arctictrucks.com/Frontpage/Brands/Toyota/Land-Cruiser-120 , http://www.arctic-trucks.co.uk , http://www.arctic-trucks.co.uk/Pages/3173 , http://www.arctic-trucks.co.uk/Pages/3418 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Home , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/PreviousExpeditions , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4875 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4877 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4878 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4903 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4880 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/4882 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/5012 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/Pages/5022 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/UpcomingExpeditions , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/?pageid=5172 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/?pageid=5173 , http://www.antarcticachallenge.com/?pageid=5167 , https://www.facebook.com/ArcticTrucks , http://wowair.co.uk/magazine/blog/icelandic-trucks-ice , http://www.southpolestation.com/trivia/10s/ewr10.html , http://expeditionportal.com/tag/arctic-trucks/ , http://expeditionportal.com/votd-watch-as-an-arctic-trucks-toyota-hilux-is-built-and-used/ , http://expeditionportal.com/votd-arctic-trucks-antartica-2011-12/ , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...x-converted-by-Arctic-Trucks-set-more-records , http://expeditionportal.com/vehicle-feature-arctic-trucks-toyota-tacoma/ , and http://expeditionportal.com/hey-lets-drive-to-the-south-pole-okay-deal/.

32. Apparently, 4x4 adventure-travel expeditions to the South Pole now exist as well – see http://www.ultimate-gt.com/tours.php?id=20.


Travel at High Altitude

33. The following is by far the most comprehensive pdf-guide that I’ve yet found on the web, for the medical side of “High Altitude” travel: https://www.leeds.ac.uk/lsmp/travel/v22 booklet hires.pdf .


Miscellaneous

34. For Antarctic cold-weather gear, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/70442-Arctic-and-extreme-cold-weather-gear , http://expeditionportal.com/votd-what-boots-do-you-wear-for-a-polar-expedition/ , http://expeditionportal.com/votd-what-jackets-are-best-for-antarctica/ , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...eason-extreme-weather-expedition-sleeping-bag ,


And that’s just English-language websites. Who knows what’s available in Russian or Swedish…..:ylsmoke:

All of these topics are fair game for discussion in this thread.


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5. Three Things to Remember When Posting in This Thread


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A. The focus of this thread is vehicles and campers that can handle extreme cold and high altitude.

Above I provided links for some of the more famous recent Arctic and Antarctic expeditions in recent years that have entailed travel by land vehicle, as opposed to, say, travel by ski or by plane. And indeed, a certain amount of discussion of roads, routes, and expeditions in extreme cold and at extreme high altitude regions is most welcome on this thread. It will often prove necessary to describe the setting in which a vehicle is used, as per my discussion the "South Pole Traverse" later in the thread. Furthermore, I tend to take a rather "liberal" view view as regards posting, and I do not mind when some posts in a thread go off on unrelated tangents. For me, tangents are always interesting, because they help to connect the question or the theme of a thread to wider concerns and issues.

However, this is a thread about the thermal engineering of Arctic and Antarctic Vehicles and Campers, not a thread about Arctic and Antarctic expeditions. This thread appears in ExPo's "General Expedition Camper Discussion and Modifications" forum, and not in the "Completed Expeditions" forum. So the focus of this thread should remain on the vehicles, and their thermal engineering solutions to the problem of extreme-cold, and/or high altitude.


B. Less well-known vehicle types are more interesting.

As the above links suggest, detailed information about SUVs equipped for Arctic or Antarctica travel is already widely available on the web. Indeed, there are lots of articles and threads right here on ExPo that cover SUV's equipped for extreme cold. So although posting more information about SUVs equipped to hand extreme cold is welcome on this thread, perhaps more interesting would be posts about vehicles that are not SUV's.

The next 6 pages provide plenty of examples of these: 4x4 truck campers, 6x6 expedition vehicles, Ivan the Terrabus, other vehicles made by Foremost, the Hagglunds Bv206 and its technology successors, Prinoth and Pisten Bully snow groomers used in Antarctica, tractors used in Antarctica made by Case-Steiger and Tucker Sno-Cat, and so on. As far as I know, there have been very few posts about such vehicles on ExPo, let alone dedicated threads.

Note that there is a big difference between an SUV and a truck camper. Put simply, a truck camper is an SUV with a camper mounted in back. Many campers designed for SUVs tend to be three-season, especially those that are "pop-up". The fabric of the pop up usually does not do very much to keep out the cold. Even the pop-ups made by Four Wheel Campers are really just "extended 3-season" habitats, as attested by the Turtle Expedition website – see http://turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle-iv/ and http://www.fourwheelcampers.com :

Our Four Wheel Pop-Up Camper was unsuccessfully modified to handle the extreme cold of Siberia. It survived, and we survived, but in the process we again discovered the reality that despite its light weight and low profile, a pop-up camper is still a tent, best suited for temperate three-season camping. Once Spring arrived, the camper performed as expected, with the exception of annoying sidewall leaks during torrential downpours and high winds.

However, hard-sided truck campers that do not pop up, and that are specifically designed to handle extreme Arctic cold, are another matter entirely. It would be great to hear about them in this thread.


C. Posts that provide detailed descriptions of systems for dealing with extreme cold and high altitude are much appreciated.

In the next 6 pages I've posted images of many of these more "exotic" and unusual vehicles. But it's much harder to find detailed technical information about the heating systems they use to deal with extreme cold and/or altitude. Technical posts that detail the thermal engineering solutions used by such vehicles would be very welcome indeed, and much appreciated!


All best wishes,



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Posts imported from "High Altitude Heating" begin here......


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Here is the beginning of an exchange with NeverEnough, that originally appeared on "High Altitude Heating", about possible electric heating solutions -- see post #69 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page7 :

To ditto an earlier comment, electric heating is not influenced by altitude. And having lived in Ecuador for several years above 10,000ft, not all high altitude environments are that cold. As long as you've got access to the amps, I like electric radiant film/panels. It's very simple, weighs almost nothing, and is maintenance-free. The setup in my camper works great down to about 20 degrees F. Colder than that I have to turn on the back-up forced-air propane unit to keep the inside temp at 70. And my camper is quite voluminous. I'm even considering adding more radiant film in the ceiling to increase the output. My next build will likely be all-electric for heating, cooking, cooling. A large PV array and access to two big gensets (camper generator and truck alternator), as well as shore-power access and easy to maintenance-free AGM batts has worked for me.

 

[biotect]

Hi Neverenough,

Great post, and some interesting observations!

Any product links and/or recommendations regarding "electric radiant film/panels"?? They'd be greatly appreciated.

And what large diesel genset would you recommend? A turbocharger for a diesel genset would be important at high-altitude, right? But generally speaking, turbocharged diesel gensets tend to be on the larger end of things, at least 20 KW and above. So this is perhaps not an option for smaller, 4x4 vehicles. My personal interest is a large 6X6 vehicle in any case, but just thought I should note this regarding genset size, if turbocharging is required.

Do you know of any turbocharged diesel genets that are smaller than 20 KW?

For some preliminary thoughts on the topic of diesel genets for high altitude, see post #27 in this thread at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page3, and post #35 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/121929-What-is-the-BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page4 (standard ExPo pagination).

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[biotect]

To which NeverEnough replied:

http://eastcoastradiantheat.com/rollnWarm.html

This is the product I used, but from a different distributor (http://www.warmup.com/us/electric-floor-heating-mats.phtml). I don't think WarmUp distributes the product anymore, which I believe is manufactured in Korea. There are a number of different "film" solutions available, as well as a number of thin "matts" that use wires instead of carbon film for resistance. It's important to do the math with electric radiant solutions and most have 10-15 watts/sqft. output. I have two "zones", each tied to a dedicated 20amp branch circuit (they're actually secondary loads via Automatic Load Shedding, ALS, circuits so demand loads, like the microwave, shut off the heat temporarily, which keeps the panel size down). In my case, each draws about 14 amps.

Another option, relatively new, are these, of which there are also several manufacturers and configurations. My next build will likely incorporate a mix of film and panels: http://ducoterra.com/radiant-panel-information/ .

And what large diesel genset would you recommend? A turbocharger for a diesel genset would be important at high-altitude, right? But generally speaking, turbocharged diesel gensets tend to be on the larger end of things, at least 20 KW and above. So this is perhaps not an option for smaller, 4x4 vehicles. My personal interest is a large 6X6 vehicle in any case, but just thought I should note this regarding genset size, if turbocharging is required.

I know about big (over 500kW) diesel standby generators because we have a few at our data center, but I'm not the guy to ask about smaller units. My camper uses a 3kW Onan gasoline unit. But my camper was designed to be removable and independent of the truck chassis, and I needed a storage tank for motorcycle fuel anyway, so I went with a gasoline generator so I could have a single fuel tank for the genset and motorcycles. As long as it's primed, it starts easily even in subfreezing and relatively high altitude situations (10,000ft).

 

[biotect]

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NeverEnough,

Many thanks!!

This electric flat panel/film solution is simple and elegant, and I wonder why it hasn't caught on more in the RV world? Especially now that solar and batteries have come into their own? This is the first time that I've heard someone suggesting the use of such panels in RV's, although I knew something like this exists in the residential market.

Whenever heating is discussed or described in the RV world, the debate seems to center around the merits of LPG versus diesel heaters. And once that's settled, the debate shifts to the merits of hydronic heaters that work with the engine (Eberspracher -- see http://www.eberspaecher.com/en/fuel-operated-heaters/product-portfolio/water-heaters.html and http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-...t-selection/coolant-heaters/hydronic-mii.html ), versus hydronic heaters that double as water heaters (e.g. Aquahot, Precisiontemp, Hydrohot, Webasto DualTop, Truma Combi, Alde, etc.), versus heaters that circulate air (eg. the Webasto Air Top and the Eberspracher AirTronic -- see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-.../heating-solutions/space-air-heaters/air-top/ , http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-...lection/air-heaters/technology-in-detail.html ).

No RV discussion forum and no RV website that I have yet come across describes or discusses the electric flat panel/films that you just referenced. Any idea why this might be the case?

Of course, it's not necessarily an either/or proposition, because larger campers often have a combination of heaters. For instance, the Doleoni MAN-KAT described above combines a Webasto Dual Top with an Air Top:

• Main air heating system provided by Webasto DualTop RHA 102, Diesel or electricity powered (1000 or 2000w)
• Additional air heating system provided by Webasto AirTop, Diesel powered

See http://www.doleoni.com/wp/en/man-kat-1-a1/ . And other set-ups will combine an Eberspracher Hydronic with a Webasto Dual Top. So a camper could perfectly well combine these electric flat panel/film radiators with more "traditional" hyrdonic for forced-air solutions.


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1. Heating for Arctic Climates


In your earlier post you mentioned that you still have a forced-air Propane unit for colder than −20 °F (−29 °C).

So I was wondering: do you think that with enough radiant panels or radiant film covering the interior surface of the camper, one could completely eliminate any need for hydronic or forced-air heating as supplement? Or will a supplementary heater still be needed, say, in the Canadian Prairie Provinces during the winter, and so too North Dakota, Montana, interior Alaska, Siberia, etc.?

In Manitoba and Saskatchewan in the winter, overnight temperature can get as low as −40 °C (−40 °F) on several days, and the temperature may remain below −18 °C (0 °F) for weeks. In Alberta, extreme winter minimum temperatures are possible as low as −54 °C (−65 °F) in northern Alberta, and −46 °C (−51 °F) in southern Alberta. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Canada , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Manitoba , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan#Climate , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta#Climate . Interior Alaska (e.g. Fairbanks) can get as cold as −60 °F (−51.1 °C), and Siberia averages −25 °C (−13 °F) in January. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Alaska and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia .

Sure, for most people such extreme temperatures might be a bit academic, and even in the case of a "Round the World" (RTW) motorhome, one could organize things so that one spends summer closer to the poles, and winter closer to the equator.

But even still, very cold places in the middle of winter covered with snow can be very beautiful. Just a few years ago I was in St. Petersburg, Russia, in the middle of winter, and the visit coincided with an unusual stretch of solid sunshine for 6 days. St. Petersburg is the "Paris of the North", and highly recommended in all seasons -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg . But there was something particularly compelling about the standard Russian-imperial color scheme for buildings (gold + blue), set against snow. Took some amazing photographs on that trip.

Fairly recently the Turtle expedition crossed Siberia in the winter -- see http://turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle-iv/ . And lots of expedition vehicles are designed to handle the same.


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2. Arctic-Capable Mongolian 6x6 Zetros


For instance, in 2010 Germany's Hünerkopf Neukirchen – a custom interior design company - collaborated with Hartmann Spezialkarosserien GmbH - a leading German coach builder - to create two Zetros 6x6 expedition grade motorhomes for customers based in Mongolia. They were designed to be hunting base camps that could work well in the middle of a Mongolian winter -- see http://www.examiner.com/article/h-nerkopf-neukirchen-sends-two-zetros-expedition-rv-s-to-mongolia , http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/mercedes-benz-zetros-2733-a-6x6-awd-expedition-vehicle , http://www.wired.com/2011/03/mongolian-hunters-turn-a-big-benz-into-xanadu-on-six-wheels/ , http://www.wired.com/2011/04/a-peek-inside-a-rolling-mongolian-xanadu#slideid-120051 , http://www.wired.com/2011/04/a-peek-inside-a-rolling-mongolian-xanadu/?viewall=true , http://expeditionmotorhome.com/luxurious-6x6-beast-from-stuttgart/ , http://www.iol.co.za/motoring/cars/...mongolian-mega-campers-1.1048385#.U-8IEHmSf6k , http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/25/mercedes-benz-zetros-6x6-luxed-up-for-mongolian-hunting-expediti/ , http://www.carscoops.com/2011/03/mercedes-benz-delivers-custom-made-6x6.html , http://autoweek.com/article/car-life/kneel-zetros-destroyer-lesser-motor-homes , http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/the-biggest-baddest-benz-20110404-1cwd4.html , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros/galerie , and http://www.hartmann-alsfeld.net/en_reisemobile-a-01.html?PHPSESSID=7bea3c6a13200c8ca047f690126f35d7 .

From the Wired article:

Even the least educated in Asian affairs know Mongolia is full of exotic wild animals and was once home to Xanadu, the archetype for opulence.

Now, a pair of filthy-rich modern-day Kublai Khans have built pleasure domes out of a pair of Mercedes-Benz Zetros, a six-wheeled military-spec vehicle bigger and badder than the monstrous Unimog. These absurdly ostentatious off-road rigs don’t just have an off-road ratio of 1.69, but they also feature bidets and heated marble floors in the bathrooms. And yes, we know the city of Xanadu is called Shangdu and it is now part of China, but we hope the geography trolls will forgive us for the sake of an extended metaphor.
One of the pair made his pile of tögrögs as a shareholder in coal and copper mines. The other owns a brewery. Daimler insists they are just a couple of average guys.

“Mongolians love their freedom, and greatly enjoy excursions into the varied natural surroundings of their high-altitude homeland,” Daimler said in a press release. “The two friends use their unique jumbo off-roaders for multi-day excursions into the Altai mountains, for example, where they hunt for wolves with an eagle.”

Hunting wolves with an eagle. And here we thought a good day of hunting involved a duck blind, an orange vest and a spill-proof coffee mug on the dash of a ’79 Ford F-150.

Do not watch this video if you're squeamish:




But if you're not squeamish, also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wwvPLPntZk , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TItHEUOXCeI , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re644qgnCtw .









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Yes, that seems like a very "optimistic" outdoor shower, given weather conditions in Mongolia....


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Just in case the relationship between the shower, the bedroom, and the bathroom/toilet seems confusing, the solution is simple: the bathroom/toilet and the shower are separate. The bathroom/toilet opens onto the kitchen with its own door. And the shower opens on to the bedroom at the back of the camper box.


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Also check out some of Klaus Hünerkopf's other very beautiful expedition vehicle interiors, at http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-3/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-ii/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/scania-expeditionsmobil/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-unimog/galerie , and http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-unimog-2/galerie . And so too, see their more "mainstream" mobile homes at http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-xl-ii-45ft/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-40-ft/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-besprechungsmobil/galerie , etc.

Note that I did not post technical details about the heating solution of these Mongolian Zetros 6x6s, because I could not find any information online. The fabricator, Hartmann Spezialkarosserien GmbH, is not generous with details on its website -- see http://www.hartmann-alsfeld.net/en_index.html and http://www.hartmann-alsfeld.net/en_r...bile-a-01.html . One only learns from the Examiner article that these Mongolian Zetroses were designed to handle Ulan-Bator's altitude (4,430 feet) and sub-arctic climate (average daily temperature, 27.7 °F (−2.4 °C). As such, these Zetroses have 10 cm thick floors and ceilings, and 5 cm thick walls -- see http://www.examiner.com/article/h-ne...-s-to-mongolia . But no specifics about the heater.

I also couldn't find any videos about these vehicles. But I did come across a video of another similar 6x6 Zetros by Hartmann SpezialKarosserien GmbH, as well as a video of a 4x4 Zetros performing recovery on a semi truck in Lappland during the winter:





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3. Arctic-Capable 6x6 Tatra Conversion


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Here is another Arctic-capable 6x6 expedition vehicle, a Tatra converted by Russians to serve as the base for photography and film, much of their work taking place during the winter. After the "build" segment, the first video has lots of footage of the Tatra plowing through snow.


[video=vimeo;76349851]http://vimeo.com/76349851[/video]
[video=vimeo;75318928]http://vimeo.com/75318928[/video] [video=vimeo;96560674]http://vimeo.com/96560674[/video]
[video=vimeo;86395394]http://vimeo.com/86395394[/video] [video=vimeo;81259161]http://vimeo.com/81259161[/video]


And here are some still shots of the same vehicle:






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See http://dikiy.me , http://dikiy.me/about-us/ , http://dikiy.me/portfolio-category/evenkia-2/ , http://dikiy.me/dikiy-tatra-birth/ , http://dikiy.me/zimnik-behind-the-scenes/ , http://dikiy.me/zimnik/ , http://dikiy.me/portfolio-category/photo-stories/ , http://dikiy.me/evenkia-oleg-the-hunter/ , http://dikiy.me/evenkias-dikiy/ , http://dikiy.me/evenkias-dikiy/ , http://dikiy.me/the-carnival-of-the-animals-2/ , http://dikiy.me/winter-with-icelandic-horse/ , http://dikiy.me/portfolio/tolting-horse/ , http://dikiy.me/category/blog/ , http://dikiy.me/behind-the-polar-circle-behind-the-civilization-diupkun-and-harpich/ , http://dikiy.me/tura-cherenda-beautiful-taiga/ , http://dikiy.me/krasnojarsk-tura-winter-road/ , http://dikiy.me/vilnius-krasnoyarsk-5500km/ , http://dikiy.me/on-the-border/ , and https://www.facebook.com/Dikiy.me.

The photography on the dikiy.me website is astonishingly beautiful, and the website is well worth a visit for that reason alone.

On the other hand, maybe you have to be Canadian or Russian to really love snow-swept arctic emptiness?





Note that the dikiy.me website does not have specific technical information about the build, only a video with music soundtrack -- see http://dikiy.me/dikiy-tatra-birth/ . But these vehicles still seemed interesting and relevant, so thought I'd post them just the same, on the off-chance that a future thread participant would know the technical info, and might post it. Perhaps the information is available on a Russian website?


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In short, if a back-up fuel-fired heater were necessary to supplement the electric panel/film radiators, what would you recommend?

Again, taking into account:

(a) the possible requirements of extreme altitude, namely, 15,000 feet on the Tibetan plateau,

as well as

(b) the requirements of arctic winter temperatures, which can get as cold as −60 °F (−51.1 °C)


All best wishes,



Biotect