Carb at high elevation

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
Talking about going out west next year... and a second kid on the way kinda dashed my hopes for a Holley Sniper before then.

Any tips/pointers on keeping a carb happy at high elevation? Like up to 12k feet.

500cfm Edelbrock 1403 4bbl on a Ford 302 with an in-tank electric fuel pump.

I have the tuning kit and it runs excellent... I just never really venture away from 1000' +/- ASL.
 

Todd780

OverCamper
Not sure if it'll help you, but I seem to recall @Dr Moreau having issues with his carb at elevation. Link to his Wagoneer thread below.

 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
Lol, he didn't want to spend $400 on a truck avenger... they have about doubled since then.

He has a lot going on, still working my way thru though his thread.

I have a one piece fuel filter and already have the fuel line in the bowl vent. Currently have a red Holley pump but will be swapping back to a in tank pump because my gauge sender is all over the place now and it doesn't suck out of the tank as well as I would like it to. I have heard it both ways if the offroad needles really do much, I do know long washboards will screw with mine.

It would be a bugger to deal with this while dialing in and learning the truck too. Multiple things coming at you at once playing off each other will drive a guy nuts.
 

Todd780

OverCamper
Lol, he didn't want to spend $400 on a truck avenger... they have about doubled since then.

He has a lot going on, still working my way thru though his thread.

I have a one piece fuel filter and already have the fuel line in the bowl vent. Currently have a red Holley pump but will be swapping back to a in tank pump because my gauge sender is all over the place now and it doesn't suck out of the tank as well as I would like it to. I have heard it both ways if the offroad needles really do much, I do know long washboards will screw with mine.

It would be a bugger to deal with this while dialing in and learning the truck too. Multiple things coming at you at once playing off each other will drive a guy nuts.
It was a great thread. Too bad he didn't start a new thread for the vehicle he last posted about.

Really one of my favorite threads that was posted here. Too bad he's one of the many we don't see here anymore.
 

ExpoMike

Well-known member
Yeah, a carb and big changes in altitude will never play well together. A buddy of mine has a '67 Chevelle that he built when in San Diego. Car ran great when tuned for that area. He moved to Flagstaff, AZ and had nothing but problems with it running well. He finally got a local guy to tune it for that altitude and it ran great again... until he went down to a car show in Phoenix and it ran like crap again, until he got home. This is definitely where EFI rules but the aftermarket ones seem to be hit and miss about reliability. I have a FiTech I bought almost 7 years ago, still sitting in the box because of all the issues people were having. I want high reliability and couldn't pull myself to remove the carb on any of my classics I have had over that time.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
Yeah, a carb and big changes in altitude will never play well together. A buddy of mine has a '67 Chevelle that he built when in San Diego. Car ran great when tuned for that area. He moved to Flagstaff, AZ and had nothing but problems with it running well. He finally got a local guy to tune it for that altitude and it ran great again... until he went down to a car show in Phoenix and it ran like crap again, until he got home. This is definitely where EFI rules but the aftermarket ones seem to be hit and miss about reliability. I have a FiTech I bought almost 7 years ago, still sitting in the box because of all the issues people were having. I want high reliability and couldn't pull myself to remove the carb on any of my classics I have had over that time.

Really day to day I don't mind my carb. Sustained rough roads mess with it but when it starts acting up I am slowing down anyway so it isn't really a bother, off camber stuff it has never faltered but it is always there in the back of my mind... and of course elevation.

But pretty much every O'Reilly's I have been in has a wall of 4bbl parts. Not so much for the aftermarket TBI setups, that eats at me too when everywhere neat is like 3 states away...

And with aftermarket ones that have problems I can't help but wonder what they are going on to, how healthy it is, how bad the wiring is etc to skew the results. "Dumb EFI never ran right" But #6 hasn't had compression since the 90's and there are wiring nuts everywhere...

I have a Explorer manifold set... which would need a lot to work (injectors, fuel rail, harnesses, PCM, fuel system, ignition, custom tune etc) and I would lose my cool air cleaner setup I built while having nowhere to put something else.
 

Todd780

OverCamper
Really day to day I don't mind my carb. Sustained rough roads mess with it but when it starts acting up I am slowing down anyway so it isn't really a bother, off camber stuff it has never faltered but it is always there in the back of my mind... and of course elevation.

But pretty much every O'Reilly's I have been in has a wall of 4bbl parts. Not so much for the aftermarket TBI setups, that eats at me too when everywhere neat is like 3 states away...

And with aftermarket ones that have problems I can't help but wonder what they are going on to, how healthy it is, how bad the wiring is etc to skew the results. "Dumb EFI never ran right" But #6 hasn't had compression since the 90's and there are wiring nuts everywhere...

I have a Explorer manifold set... which would need a lot to work (injectors, fuel rail, harnesses, PCM, fuel system, ignition, custom tune etc) and I would lose my cool air cleaner setup I built while having nowhere to put something else.
A Godzilla swap would cure what ails ya.....

200w.gif
 

spot

Member
I don’t have a pdf of the chart but edelbrock has a chart based jet and rod sizes. I’d change jets and rods at home until it is lean and almost not running. Put the stock jets and rods back in and carry the “lean set” with you and change them when you get there. Those carbs are dead easy to modify on the truck. I just keep a kit with spring, jets and rods in my tool box and change them as needed.
 
Last edited:

JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
Put a manual choke on it. It will enrich the f/a mix almost like bigger jets. You loose some gas milage either way.
The highest I ever used it was Minida pass (~6800ft).
 

burleyman

Active member
I have old memories of driving across the USA on fairly new and under construction interstates while burning leaded gas. Slight and not so slight "rolling coal" seen from tailpipes when hitting the Rockies. I saw drivers removing air filters and other methods to try to lean.

What spot and JaSAn said. You can tune way too lean and enrich by using a manual choke, like I’ve seen done with a lot of too lean small engines. Decades ago, Edelbrock’s were avoided for mainly Holleys because of a lack of understanding how to tune. Again, what spot said.

Before gasohol, I drove to the Rockies with no modifications, but the spark plugs and tailpipe showed slightly rich and probably not good for piston ring/cylinder wear. Now, with gasohol, the boiling point is so low it can actually boil the fuel out of the bowl with long pulls, parked or long idling. Also vapor lock. Electric pump helps, along with fuel line heat sleeves.

One crude method I’ve seen is to allow air to enter under vacuum, not through the venturis, to lean the mixture. Leaving a carb's ported vacuum fitting open can allow idling, yet also allow extra air into the manifold above idle. I’m so old, I remember removing the vacuum line from a windshield wiper motor to lean the mixture.

If not enough to correct the over richness, a manifold port can sometimes move more air. Under a really hard pull, vacuum can decrease to the point not much air can bypass the venturis for leaning.

I don't want to curse like others about the somewhat like fuel injection Variable Venturi carbs on USA vehicles around 1980, and I had good luck with the mainly British styles with the oil-filled reservoir. Fords variable venturi carbs worked great on V8 engines if looked after. They can still be had. So can a 4 to 2 barrel adapter plate.


Ford V8 flathead carbs had two drain plugs facing forward in the fuel bowl. Remove them, loosen the jets through the holes, then use a holding screwdriver to remove and replace the jets. Handy. Picture below. I installed one on a 2300 Ranger years ago using an adapter, to replace a gummed up emissions model that looked like a porcupine. Worked great.

Holley has a quick change jet kit for center hung floats, but at some expense.

Excuse the rambling. I’ll never forget my first coast-to-coast trip. Good luck.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6571 2.jpeg
    IMG_6571 2.jpeg
    1.5 MB · Views: 0

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
I have old memories of driving across the USA on fairly new and under construction interstates while burning leaded gas. Slight and not so slight "rolling coal" seen from tailpipes when hitting the Rockies. I saw drivers removing air filters and other methods to try to lean.

What spot and JaSAn said. You can tune way too lean and enrich by using a manual choke, like I’ve seen done with a lot of too lean small engines. Decades ago, Edelbrock’s were avoided for mainly Holleys because of a lack of understanding how to tune. Again, what spot said.

Before gasohol, I drove to the Rockies with no modifications, but the spark plugs and tailpipe showed slightly rich and probably not good for piston ring/cylinder wear. Now, with gasohol, the boiling point is so low it can actually boil the fuel out of the bowl with long pulls, parked or long idling. Also vapor lock. Electric pump helps, along with fuel line heat sleeves.

One crude method I’ve seen is to allow air to enter under vacuum, not through the venturis, to lean the mixture. Leaving a carb's ported vacuum fitting open can allow idling, yet also allow extra air into the manifold above idle. I’m so old, I remember removing the vacuum line from a windshield wiper motor to lean the mixture.

If not enough to correct the over richness, a manifold port can sometimes move more air. Under a really hard pull, vacuum can decrease to the point not much air can bypass the venturis for leaning.

I don't want to curse like others about the somewhat like fuel injection Variable Venturi carbs on USA vehicles around 1980, and I had good luck with the mainly British styles with the oil-filled reservoir. Fords variable venturi carbs worked great on V8 engines if looked after. They can still be had. So can a 4 to 2 barrel adapter plate.


Ford V8 flathead carbs had two drain plugs facing forward in the fuel bowl. Remove them, loosen the jets through the holes, then use a holding screwdriver to remove and replace the jets. Handy. Picture below. I installed one on a 2300 Ranger years ago using an adapter, to replace a gummed up emissions model that looked like a porcupine. Worked great.

Holley has a quick change jet kit for center hung floats, but at some expense.

Excuse the rambling. I’ll never forget my first coast-to-coast trip. Good luck.

On that note I did find this which is interesting.


Kind of reminds me of the metering system my original feedback carb had to adjust the mixture.

But with modern parts rather than a bunch of 40yo obsolete stuff that barely worked when new.

And if anything goes sideways with it... a vacuum cap and it is business as normal with my carb, a ECM laying down won't strand me.

Not as good as EFI especially for off camber stuff (which I really haven't had an issue with)... but worthy of investigation.

Took our new Mercury Zephyr on vacation in 1983 out west to see the sights, coming back thru Colorado near Vail it wasn't running well. I tightened down the idle screw on the one barrel, when I got past Denver richened it up again.

Higher altitude, less air - maintain the 14:1 ratio by leaning it out slightly. Going back to sea level, richen it. That's all we did in those days - matched the ratio to the amount of available air. Less air, less fuel.

EFI is considered the fix for the issue yet I have heard the Denver area and other higher altitude metros get a different tune program which handles things with more finesse. What none of this does is fix it when you have mountain sickness - and you can't fly with your own bottle of O2 to help, nope, not allowed. But you can buy your own tank and mask to help if driving. It addresses the other side of the ratio - it supplies more O2.

If someone is just passing thru quickly then a very low metered shot of NO2 could be a solution. But, I wouldn't strap that tank on the roof either. This is where a supercharger/turbo could help - pump more air in - which is exactly why they were installed on fighter planes in WWII. A properly controlled fuel delivery system for compressed intake air meters that amount to directly meet ratio needs.

None of this is cheap.

And I am about the only one in the group with a NA engine... and the only one with a carb at all.

Boost is not on the table for this old engine lol, not sure it would really address my A/F carb issue either.

12k is like the max, it isn't going to be sustained there.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
188,201
Messages
2,903,720
Members
229,665
Latest member
SANelson
Top