Castor problem?

[marc olivares]

Using a locking diff would be masking the problem, not curing it, and could lead to all sorts of odd effects on different surfaces. It may have no help at all in keeping the vehicle straight after a front tyre blow out, which correct castor angle does help with.

Don't elongate the swivel housing bolt holes to do this - it's a terrible botch. Firstly, it's inaccurate, and you'll probably end up with uneven castors from side to side. Secondly, it removes a lot of material from under the bolt head (up to 40% loss) so creates a serious weakness in the joint and will likely end up at some point in the bolts shearing or the swivel flange cracking.

Do the job properly and use either castor corrected radius arms and standard bushes, or standard arms and corrected bushes.

A double cardan jointed front prop will probably be of benefit - the front UJ will have been set to a near straight position by the lift while the rear will be more steeply cranked, which will render the factory UJ phasing out of required spec. The rear is unlikely to be a problem unless you have a worn UJ/rotoflex.

wow, there is a lot of misinformation and conjecture in this post. :Wow1:

 

[Mike_rupp]

Even though it might work for 99% of the folks using it, that doesn't make it the correct way to do it. This is analogous to disproving a theory. All it takes is one event that does not behave according to the theory to blow the theory out of the water.

I wouldn't desire to be that 1% for whom it did not work, so I would not put myself in that position nor will I advise others to do so. The potential for a catastrophe is large.

If the change needed was large enough that new holes had to be drilled, and they were far enough away from the existing holes that the bearing area under the bolt heads would not eclipse the existing holes, then I'd say go for it.

Virtually every change that we make to these vehicles increases the potential for catastrophe. Lifting the vehicle raises the center of gravity which increases the risk of a rollover. Removing swaybars increases the risk of a rollover. Adding a roofrack and storing things on the rack increases the risk of a rollover. Adding larger tires increases braking distances which increases the risk of a collision.

The risk of these potential catastrophes is much higher than the risk of an issue with enlarging the swivel holes. Also, consider that there is an upside of restoring the caster: reducing wander and improving steering stability.

 

[Toy-Roverlander]

The weight of the truck is carried by a ring machined into the swivel ball that recess' into the end flange on the housing. the bolts just create the clamping force that keeps it there

Uhm, not entirely so.

At least the bottom row of bolts will be under strain as result of the leverage from the wheel to the swivel flange.

I would personally not enlarge those holes simply because I don't like the idea, but I drive a leafer anyway :victory:

just my 2cents
Koos

 

[ntsqd]

I am not talking in theory here at all...most of the hardest used rovers I know of all have this mod done to them and none have had issues.

the amount of material that is removed is very little and the weight of the truck is not carried in sheer at these flanges. The weight of the truck is carried by a ring machined into the swivel ball that recess' into the end flange on the housing. the bolts just create the clamping force that keeps it there and the total size of the area left after the machine work is done is still about 20x the size of the welded area on a toyota weld on swivel ball.

So you discount that area lost under the bolt heads and call it good?

Tell me, with that lost area and the bending load incurred on the bolt by that loss, what insures that the setting won't change at the most inopportune time?
That it never has is not good enough, that's a matter of fortune and not design. Mr. Murphy adores sloppy construction methods.

Virtually every change that we make to these vehicles increases the potential for catastrophe. Lifting the vehicle raises the center of gravity which increases the risk of a rollover. Removing swaybars increases the risk of a rollover. Adding a roofrack and storing things on the rack increases the risk of a rollover. Adding larger tires increases braking distances which increases the risk of a collision.

The risk of these potential catastrophes is much higher than the risk of an issue with enlarging the swivel holes. Also, consider that there is an upside of restoring the caster: reducing wander and improving steering stability.

Since most of the mods we make change the vehicle dynamics, in usually a negative direction, does it not behoove us to address those that can be controlled or reduced and do so to our utmost?

 

[blakesrover]

Well, either way you look at it. I remember a post of a catastrophic failing control arm on an LR3, i think pretty recently. And that was a stock component.

What i do focus on at this point in time is what i have on hand. A truck with not enough castor for my comfort. So that is my first fix. What direction to take, well, that is still in the air. it's not a matter of where i take my business, but more so the best solution. Money should not be an issue either when considering something of this seriousness.

If re-drilled and castor corrected control arms both skin the cat, which one is the safer way of skinning?

Since there is potential question of re-drilled swivel, although nothing has ever been documented, are there any "potential" or documented issues with castor-corrected control arms?

 

[Mike_rupp]

Since most of the mods we make change the vehicle dynamics, in usually a negative direction, does it not behoove us to address those that can be controlled or reduced and do so to our utmost?

Sure, but with redrilled swivels, the actual benefits of regaining lost caster outweigh the theoretical risks.

 

[UK4X4]

"What i do focus on at this point in time is what i have on hand. A truck with not enough castor for my comfort. So that is my first fix. What direction to take, well, that is still in the air. it's not a matter of where i take my business, but more so the best solution. Money should not be an issue either when considering something of this seriousness."

DWEB type answer...........please excuse the bluntness

If you had of taken your time to fully research lifting your truck, you may have noticed this issue mentioned 100's of times before you even purchased your lift "kit"

Others and myself have supplied solutions to your issue both here and on dweb...........

Just make a decision and we'll get back to more interesting posts

Wether you play with your balls, the bushings or your control arms is entirely up to you

There are many ways to skin a cat, some better than others according to the people who use that said method,

its like asking wether a Bosh or a Gems engined disco is better, the person who has X says its better

Light steering never bothered me enough to invest another large pile of money in the lift

 

[blakesrover]

This is where i enjoy the benefits of being a noob:wings:

And if there is a way i can always remain one, then i'll try my best. I should post less; i already see it becoming a problem

As far as "dweb" answer; i'm too much of a "noob" as they say here to really understand the full content of that statement..and now i ask please that no one explains it to me. the "noob" may wear off:Wow1:

In response to "fully research" before doing the lift. That would require even more research than i already have committed to which would not allow me to perform my "life", which includes paying attention to opening season Dodgers baseball, root my Lakers on, work my job at a competent level, and enjoy planning my wedding with my fiance. Sorry guys, this whole internet thing and posting has a limit for me. I dont plan to build an "internet" reputation. Maybe i am already:/ I apologize. I only intend to ask questions.

I'll put it this way...it is much easier for me to come on here and ask SPECIFIC questions to my application than it is.. lets say for instance.. read 20 some odd pages of Scott Brady and mike rupp going back and forth between double double cardan and double cardan drive shafts. Cause i've obviously done both and here I am asking questions.

If you had of taken your time to fully research lifting your truck, you may have noticed this issue mentioned 100's of times before you even purchased your lift "kit"

Others and myself have supplied solutions to your issue both here and on dweb...........

Just make a decision and we'll get back to more interesting posts

Wether you play with your balls, the bushings or your control arms is entirely up to you

There are many ways to skin a cat, some better than others according to the people who use that said method,

its like asking wether a Bosh or a Gems engined disco is better, the person who has X says its better

Light steering never bothered me enough to invest another large pile of money in the lift

You could probably post that same line to various threads, at least a few times every day If it bothers you, you can always click your back button rather than the reply button

As far as picking a solution. I hear yah on that. I've got more than enough info to make a decision which I thank everyone whom put their 2 cents in..as well as, hopefully help the next noob that comes along asking similar questions.

 

[ntsqd]

This site seems to be filled with arm chair web wheelers that act like they know what they are doing and cloak their comments in legal and catostrophic scare mongering.

Just an Engineer who has the education and the on and off road experience (racing, medium distance trips, & crawling) to know when a suggestion is shaky and has seen things just as shaky fail with dire and not so dire consequences. And like I stated before, multiple successes are negated by one single failure. I've no desire to see anyone experience the dire consequences based on a self proclaimed expert's internet opinion.
________

If re-drilling the balls is the decided direction, at least plug the original holes first. Better would be to find some that have not yet been drilled.

 

[marc olivares]

Just an Engineer who has the education and the on and off road experience (racing, medium distance trips, & crawling) to know when a suggestion is shaky and has seen things just as shaky fail with dire and not so dire consequences. And like I stated before, multiple successes are negated by one single failure. I've no desire to see anyone experience the dire consequences based on a self proclaimed expert's internet opinion.
________

If re-drilling the balls is the decided direction, at least plug the original holes first. Better would be to find some that have not yet been drilled.

well, you've whipped out your "i'm an engineer" card, and then followed that up with your "look at my off road experience" card, yet you still seem to be holding the "i have experience with this mod" card in your hand.

please say you have experience with this mod, or your comments will remain conjecture.

 

[ntsqd]

well, you've whipped out your "i'm an engineer" card, and then followed that up with your "look at my off road experience" card, yet you still seem to be holding the "i have experience with this mod" card in your hand.

please say you have experience with this mod, or your comments will remain conjecture.

This particular, exact mod, no. I have, however, BT,DT with similar mods (i.e. slotted holes in highly stressed locations) and any time they've been asked to remain in a given position the failure rate was unacceptably high. Look at it this way, would you slot the holes in a flywheel to correct a balance problem? I sure as heck would not.

During my drive home this evening I realized that I've not been clear. I do not have a problem with re-drilled ball flanges. I have a problem with leaving them with slotted holes. Welding plugs into the existing holes, and then drilling a new set of holes, clocked as needed, isn't much different than how LR made the bits originally. The actual process is tricky than it sounds because you really do not want to have to drill through a weld, but it can be done & I'd venture that it is how anyone doing it for sale would do it.

 

[Michael Slade]

During my drive home this evening I realized that I've not been clear. I do not have a problem with re-drilled ball flanges. I have a problem with leaving them with slotted holes.

I was beginning to think that you and Marc were actually agreeing with each other but still having a fight.

I can see now that I was right.

Now...kiss and make-up. :victory:

 

[ntsqd]

I was beginning to think that you and Marc were actually agreeing with each other but still having a fight.

I can see now that I was right.

Now...kiss and make-up. :victory:

That's not a fight. That's a violent agreement!

 

[Snagger]

Given the response that the swivel bolts are not under significant shear stress because the locating ring takes all the load, and that I clearly don't know what I'm talking about because I wouldn't do the mod my self, I will never take advice from the two individuals who advocate this hole slotting method. Those bolts are under eneormous stress, especially the bottom ones, which carry large tensile loads as the weight of the vehicle tries to bend the axle and separate the challace laterallyfrom the axle flange. Removing material from under one side of the bolt head means the bolt is unevenly stressed, with a similar effect to having a wedge section washer under the head. This vastly increases the chances of bolt failure. It's not the swivel housing that runs the risk of failure, it's the bolts.

The internet is chock-a-block with self-assured amateur mechanics advocating all sorts of dangerous botches. Given the results of what would happen if these bolts failed on a motorway/highway, it's not a shortcut that I think is worht the risk.

Corrected radius arms are the way to go, in my opinion, and many of the after-market models are both lighter and stronger than the originals, such as those by Equipe and QT.

 

[marc olivares]

"The internet is chock-a-block with self-assured amateur mechanics"

Hmmm, pot, kettle....BLACK? maybe...

Corrected radius arms are the way to go, in my opinion, and many of the after-market models are both lighter and stronger than the originals, such as those by Equipe and QT.

castor corrected arms do not address pinion angle corrections.

This particular, exact mod, no....

thank you, that is all.