Cause of battery drain

[68camaro]

Now as to the Redarc...

Do you need it? Depends. How does the house battery charge now while driving?

The Redarc is a multi-stage charger that will take whatever the alternator voltage is and bump it up high enough to do a proper multi-stage charge. So yes, it will get the house battery 100% full...

IF you drive enough hours (8-12 or more) for the battery to fully absorb and saturate. Most people never do drive enough hours do get the job well and truly done.

Altenator does charge house batteries but I think my issue were bad house batteries plus using Deep Cycle they were not filling up 100% or even close.

So in a nutshell, my inverter and converter seeem fine, I just need to get converter off battery to avoid drain loop,and biggest thing now isto decide on battery type and size, then upgrade solar panels.

Since I store RV in storage place with no electricity and I use a RV cover, would it be wise to put electrical system in storage mode and hook up movable solar panel to RV when stored to keep topped off and keep batteries charged?

Again, I really appreciate all the time you have taken to help on this.

Chuck

 

[dwh]

The Magnatek Converter is required to turn 110V AC to 12V DC - correct?

Well, not exactly. Normally with the Magnatek, 12v loads run either from the converter if there is incoming AC -or- from the battery if there is no incoming AC.

If you disconnect the Magnatek's battery connection, then yes, any 12v loads connected to the Magnatek would require the converter to be powered up since that would be their only 12v power source.

Any 12v loads connected directly to the battery would work either way.

* 110V AC comes frm shore power or generator.

Or, in the absence of incoming external AC, 110v is supplied to the Magnatek by the Xantrex inverter drawing from the batteries.

* 12V DC comes from Magnatek inverter when running the generator or when plugged into shore power, or simply the two coach batteries when no shore power or generator running.

Again, not exactly. 12vdc to feed the 12v loads *connected to the Magnatek* are powered either by the CONverter section of the Magnatek or the battery.

AC power to make that happen comes from shore/gen OR the Xantrex INverter.

Loads connected to the battery are powered either by the battery, or if there is shore/gen power, by the battery charger of the Xantrex which is also charging the battery.

So it seems I need to check to see if my Magnateks battery connection is hooked up and if so better to rig DC circuits direct to battery instead of converter?

Yes. If the battery is connected to the Magnetek, then when there is no incoming AC, you have that looping issue which causes a contant battery drain whenever the inverter is turned on.

But if you do disconnect the Magnatek from the battery, then you either have to have the inverter running to power the converter, or you have to switch the 12v loads over to the battery.

Running the 12v loads direct from battery is best. Now that I think about it, there is a simple and clean way to accomplish that without rewiring or disconnecting the Magnatek from the battery...disconnect the converter inside the Magnatek.

Then the 12v loads would run from battery all the time, but still run through the Magnatek's fuse block.

If you look at the installation photos of the converter section upgrade from Best Converters, it's pretty obvious which wires supply AC to the converter section. Just find them, cut them and cap them off.


http://www.bestconverter.com/Magnetek-Upgrade_ep_26-1.html

 

[dwh]

Excellent description...



So if I want to squeeze as much power back into battery as possible, the GC would be best followed by AGM?

The GC battery is a 6v deep cycle battery. They make them in flooded style or AGM style. There is essentially no difference other than the flooded will have a slightly longer lifespan while the AGM will be maintainance free.

The AGM style will also be much more expensive. Until you know you have ironed out the problems and can get the batteries to last, it probably wouldn't be the best idea to spend the extra money.


As to squeezing the most power in - that requires *time*. No matter if flooded or AGM, it takes hours and hours for lead-acid to fully absorb.

 

[dwh]

Altenator does charge house batteries but I think my issue were bad house batteries plus using Deep Cycle they were not filling up 100% or even close.

Yup. Chronic undercharging is the biggest killer of deep cycle batteries.

So in a nutshell, my inverter and converter seeem fine, I just need to get converter off battery to avoid drain loop,and biggest thing now isto decide on battery type and size, then upgrade solar panels.

Sounds about right.

Since I store RV in storage place with no electricity and I use a RV cover, would it be wise to put electrical system in storage mode and hook up movable solar panel to RV when stored to keep topped off and keep batteries charged?

Well storage mode is pretty simple - just turn everything off...especially the inverter.

Sure having a solar panel to keep the batteries topped off while in storage would be a good idea...if it doesn't get stolen. Just lay it up on the roof on top of the cover and forget about it.

Again, I really appreciate all the time you have taken to help on this.

No worries. It's challenging to try to figure out a system remotely using only the hints and clues provided by some guy who is pulling his hair out in frustration.

 

[68camaro]

Well, not exactly. Normally with the Magnatek, 12v loads run either from the converter if there is incoming AC -or- from the battery if there is no incoming AC.

If you disconnect the Magnatek's battery connection, then yes, any 12v loads connected to the Magnatek would require the converter to be powered up since that would be their only 12v power source.

Any 12v loads connected directly to the battery would work either way.




Or, in the absence of incoming external AC, 110v is supplied to the Magnatek by the Xantrex inverter drawing from the batteries.




Again, not exactly. 12vdc to feed the 12v loads *connected to the Magnatek* are powered either by the CONverter section of the Magnatek or the battery.

AC power to make that happen comes from shore/gen OR the Xantrex INverter.

Loads connected to the battery are powered either by the battery, or if there is shore/gen power, by the battery charger of the Xantrex which is also charging the battery.




Yes. If the battery is connected to the Magnetek, then when there is no incoming AC, you have that looping issue which causes a contant battery drain whenever the inverter is turned on.

But if you do disconnect the Magnatek from the battery, then you either have to have the inverter running to power the converter, or you have to switch the 12v loads over to the battery.

Running the 12v loads direct from battery is best. Now that I think about it, there is a simple and clean way to accomplish that without rewiring or disconnecting the Magnatek from the battery...disconnect the converter inside the Magnatek.

Then the 12v loads would run from battery all the time, but still run through the Magnatek's fuse block.

If you look at the installation photos of the converter section upgrade from Best Converters, it's pretty obvious which wires supply AC to the converter section. Just find them, cut them and cap them off.


http://www.bestconverter.com/Magnetek-Upgrade_ep_26-1.html

My head hurts...LOL.... seriously, I need to really re-read this stuff....thanks for patience.

 

[68camaro]

Sounds about right.

No worries. It's challenging to try to figure out a system remotely using only the hints and clues provided by some guy who is pulling his hair out in frustration.

About time I got something "right"

On top of my frustration is lack of vocabulary and electrical ignorance......but I am slowly starting to know enough to know what I don't know.....before I didn't even know what I didn't know....

I am in no rush but hope to get figured out by first of year, so I can upgrade in January. I will be coming back to this thread to piece things together and see best direction for me.

 

[john61ct]

Altenator does charge house batteries but I think my issue were bad house batteries plus using Deep Cycle they were not filling up 100% or even close.

No.

2 solutions, either make sure you use less than you can put back each day, or

increase the energy inputs.

As long as you can measure those two factors, eliminate the guesswork.

At least learn how to confirm when the bank gets to 100% Full, and get there at least a few days per week.

You need true deep cycling batts in any case.

Your "converter" (I'd call it a charger for clarity) should not cause any drain.

An inverter might but that's a load device, completely different.

Yes if stored for more than a few weeks, you must keep the bank topped up at 100% Full.

Unattended always on charging is riskier, but certainly better than nothing.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[luthj]

The first steps in a build like this is figuring out how much energy (AH or watt-hours) you use in an average day. From there you can do a bit of math to determine what size battery bank you need, and how much charging (solar, alt, shore/gen). Iterate until you find a usable solution. Then select quality components that will actually charge the bank properly.

 

[dwh]

Your "converter" (I'd call it a charger for clarity) should not cause any drain.

An inverter might but that's a load device, completely different.

Normally, that would be the case. In this situation however, if the converter is *being powered by* the inverter, then it certainly would cause a drain - and the loop which I previously described.

And it is a converter, not a charger. The Magnatek 7300 series is designed to supply loads, not to charge batteries.

"Input: 105-130 volts 660 watts. Output: 45 amps. 14 volts at no load, 13.2 volts at full load. UL and CUL listed"

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/parallax-7300-series-power-center?a=266891

 

[dwh]

The first steps in a build like this [snip]

It's already built. It's a pre-existing system which was already in place when the RV was purchased.

A system which seems to have a habit of prematurely killing batteries.

This is not an exercise in system design, it's an exercise in system troubleshooting.

 

[john61ct]

Normally, that would be the case. In this situation however, if the converter is *being powered by* the inverter, then it certainly would cause a drain - and the loop which I previously described.

Wow.

Sorry I missed that. What were they thinking?

I can't imagine a scenario where that would be a good idea.

> And it is a converter, not a charger.

Yes, it certainly is appropriate to make the distinction in such a case.

Old-school dumb-as-rocks converter to be more specific.

I have seen garage chargers just as dumb, just in the other direction.

 

[luthj]

I understand that the OP is troubleshooting. He may have an excessive idle power drain somewhere (seems very possible with the converter and charger setup).

However, most of these setups aren't sized very well from the factory. He also mentions wanting to add solar, and change his battery size. At that point he is better (in my opinion) working out his needs before dropping a fair bit of money on new components. This is a great opportunity to review what he has (including wire sizing, battery type and location, etc), and make any changes/upgrades he needs.

I also understand (and suggested earlier) that throwing a few cheap batteries in for troubleshooting/learning is a good idea before he breaks out serious coin.

 

[68camaro]

Thanks all, I have pulled back and am trying to figure out average usage for an outing, 3-4 day off-grid while fishing, mostly under forested canopy, and away from rig from early morning to late afternoon/early evening or dark. Sometimes back for quick lunch. Rarely spend two days same spot, at night drive 2 - 4 hours to new location to set up for night.

As I am figuring out load usage, one question is since I store RV in storage lot w/o electricity and keep it covered, would it make sense to buy a solar like this one (120 or 180 watt) to keep batteries topped off while not being used? It can go weeks to a month with no usage: https://overlandsolar.com/collections/rv-solar-systems, or am I putting cart before the horse.

I have no ideas if wires are big or small, would a picture of battery/cables help determine that?

 

[john61ct]

Adding a small portable panel to keep the bank full via a trickle/float is very easy and cheap.

Better to do after your main system overhaul is complete, a minor detail and getting into the weeds would distract from the fundamentals of your overall design.

 

[dwh]

Is there any solar on the rig now?

Adding a portable setup for storage, like the ones you linked is fine - again, as long as you can keep it from being stolen.

It would also work if you leave the truck parked all day while off fishing. Especially if the truck is parked in the shade, being able to deploy a portable away from the truck sitting in the sun is handy. Again, as long as you can keep it from being stolen.

Lot of people around here use Renogy portables.