cold weather and pop ups

[adam88]

I've had many sub freezing nights in my Hallmark and have had no problems staying warm. I second the comment the condensation is the bigger problem and don't know how a hard side camper would solve that issue.

Any one have experience with cold weather in a hardside that can compare?

I am building a hard sided camper and will be using it in extreme cold weather (down to -40 degrees). The only solution for fighting condensation I have found is two fold:

1) Avoid any metals being used on the interior of the camper (either full composite construction or wood)
2) A heater unit that has a fresh air exchange with outside air

This will basically eliminate condensation, with the exception of the windows, which there's isn't too much that can't be done about except the usual stuff. The FWC is a condensation king because of it's very thin aluminum frame + soft top pop-up. It would be difficult to find a camper that would have more condensation than an FWC in extreme cold. Heaters are also very important, and dry heat is critical with an air exchange. I am planning on using a webasto dual top diesel heater which should solve any issues, as it has a lot of BTU's, fresh air exchange and is nice dry heat.

 

[DanoT]

I am building a hard sided camper and will be using it in extreme cold weather (down to -40 degrees). The only solution for fighting condensation I have found is two fold:

1) Avoid any metals being used on the interior of the camper (either full composite construction or wood)
2) A heater unit that has a fresh air exchange with outside air

This will basically eliminate condensation, with the exception of the windows, which there's isn't too much that can't be done about except the usual stuff. The FWC is a condensation king because of it's very thin aluminum frame + soft top pop-up. It would be difficult to find a camper that would have more condensation than an FWC in extreme cold. Heaters are also very important, and dry heat is critical with an air exchange. I am planning on using a webasto dual top diesel heater which should solve any issues, as it has a lot of BTU's, fresh air exchange and is nice dry heat.

Do you know just how many BTUs the diesel heater puts out? 18 to 20k BTUs is probably what you need. Also I always have 2 roof vents cracked open no matter how cold outside, plus a small opening window in the fabric sidewall near my head is used a further airflow adjustment.

 

[adam88]

Do you know just how many BTUs the diesel heater puts out? 18 to 20k BTUs is probably what you need. Also I always have 2 roof vents cracked open no matter how cold outside, plus a small opening window in the fabric sidewall near my head is used a further airflow adjustment.

The diesel heater I plan to use (Webasto Dual Top) is a 1.5kw to 6.0kw diesel fired heater, so roughly 5000btu to 20,000btu. It should be more than enough power. Best of all, on high power, it only consumes 0.17 gallons of diesel fuel per hour. So even blasting on full overnight it will only consume about 1.5 gallons of diesel max. This is one of the main reasons I am going with a diesel heater. However, I do not think it will require 18-20k btu, since the interior of my camper is only going to be about 6.5'x6.5'x8.5', so around 359 cubic feet with roughly R7 or R8 insulation (taking into account the fiberglass).

 

[zidaro]

hallmark now offers reflectix sandwiched inside the tentsides too. I would LOVE to have that for the added insulation effect.

 

[johnnieev]

It's in the works :sombrero:

View attachment 112843View attachment 112844View attachment 112845

I sent an e-mail to Marc (big dude at XP Camper) and he sent me a nice PDF file of this camper.

Wow!!! This is a nice little hard-side camper!! And the features are just about everything you could need for a nice off-road rig (or a winter pop-up camper). And Marc mentioned to me that they could add a couple additional items that I would be looking at.

Now I am trying to convince the wife to let me go ahead, get a "slightly" used Tacoma, convert it over to diesel, and then let Marc and XP Camper people work their magic. Given what I want to do it will be a little expensive, but man o'live it, it will be just what I am looking for that a family of three (wife, little son, and me) could use for camping out be it a VERY primative site or a campground year-round.......

 

[adam88]

I sent an e-mail to Marc (big dude at XP Camper) and he sent me a nice PDF file of this camper.

Wow!!! This is a nice little hard-side camper!! And the features are just about everything you could need for a nice off-road rig (or a winter pop-up camper). And Marc mentioned to me that they could add a couple additional items that I would be looking at.

Now I am trying to convince the wife to let me go ahead, get a "slightly" used Tacoma, convert it over to diesel, and then let Marc and XP Camper people work their magic. Given what I want to do it will be a little expensive, but man o'live it, it will be just what I am looking for that a family of three (wife, little son, and me) could use for camping out be it a VERY primative site or a campground year-round.......

One thing to keep in mind is that the V2 XP Camper is actually really small. You really would need to step in it to see it before buying it. I would say it is almost too small for a couple, nevermind with a child. It may not look small from the outside, but it is. The above cab portion is only for you feet when sleeping, and if you look, the rear hangover portion is not a lot of useable space. With the bed built in there is actually very little room inside for anything. Also, the width of the camper is only around 67" wide, so the interior is even more cramped. I really like what Marc did, it is an ingenius design, but it is quite small. Just an FYI.

 

[1stDeuce]

I used my 1993 Hallmark for snowmobiling last winter, and two of my overnights had temps at or slightly below 0F. Two people and a dog in the camper both nights. I didn't crack any vents, but my (full height) back door does leak a bit, so that may have had the same effect. I didn't have any condensation issues anyway.

At temps that cold, the actual numbers on the thermostat are meaningless, as the wall of the camper that it's mounted to are so cold as to throw off the reading. I think I set it to about 55F, and that kept it at 60-62F in the camper while we ate dinner and played cards. There was a waterfall of cold air coming off the bunk... I turned the stat down into the 40's (about 50F in the camper) to sleep. If you think you're going to set the heater at 70F and sleep under a sheet, you're mistaken, but in even a summer sleeping bag, 50F is plenty warm for sleeping, and kept propane and battery usage to a minimum.

Honestly, if I did it more often, I'd spend some time developing an "arctic package" to better insulate the soft walls. Something to stick on with velcro and add an extra thermal barrier would help a lot! I think with just an added insulation layer, similar to what FWC or Phoenix do, it'd be fine even for extended time at low temps. Alternately, you could just not pop the roof for the night and sleep down low if it was REALLY cold. That would make it about 10x easier to heat, as I think 80% of heat loss is due to the soft walls.
Chris

 

[BillTex]

I've had many sub freezing nights in my Hallmark and have had no problems staying warm. I second the comment the condensation is the bigger problem and don't know how a hard side camper would solve that issue.

Any one have experience with cold weather in a hardside that can compare?

We use our hard side skiing...only down to teens/twentys deg F so far.
I can say at those temps we are comfy...toilet, shower, coffee...even hot pizza out of the oven!

B

 

[Ozarker]

Moderator, you can certainly delete my question as "Winter Camping in a pop-up" sorry I didn't find this before I posted.

I thought about a panel that would go on inside, my idea was to have blue board cover in a material that folds up accordian style maybe and would tightly fit against the sides, the roof could come down a bit to tighten the seal. ?


The biggest problem is not so much with insulation and thick walls but keeping air flow to a minimum while keeping ventilation to combat condensation, a heater, diesel or multi-fuel can blast you out of a small area if you don't have the wind or alot of air flow exchanged. I stayed in snow caves with a can of sterno and took my clothes off in the bag, that was 50 below at Ft. Drum, so a camper should be a walk in the park.....well, not really, but more comfortable.

A GP small get toasty with those old diesel drip heaters, but you still don't want to put your feet on the ground....

I guess, that any insulation would be much better than none, finding the right type and amount would be the trick and how you fabricate the hard(er) sides. Any ideas?

 

[Ozarker]

Maybe the cold weather outings is not for the wossies, but winter is on the way and I'm not sitting at home! So for those that can, how do you go?

 

[sanyi83]

As far as cold weather camping goes ive been reading through this and have come to a couple of my own conclusions. Soft sided campers are not the best but can get the job done. I would rather go with an Alaskan for cold weather camping if I did plan to do that.

 

[craig333]

Really they are three season rigs. My backpacking gear is three season gear. Have I gone backpacking in winter with it? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Just depends on what you're willing to live with. To me the big factor is length of the trip. I don't mind burning up propane for a weekend. An expedition to a cold climate for a month? I'd probably want a different rig.

 

[sassthathoopie]

Full timing in ski resorts - fun in an XP

Here's a discussion about how the XP Camper copes in cold conditions.

http://forum.xpcamper.org/index.php/topic/23-cold-weather/#entry101

We've been chasing the snow in ours since early December. Have seen -4f overnight while maintaining 65f inside with the thermostat on 45% of max. Currently parked in Jackson Hole, snow falling, 22f outside, 76f inside

 

[camper101]

One way to manage condensation (without all the cold of being outside) is an air to air heat exchanger. An example is here: http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25743058/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1


I've been working on my own exchanger, with mixed results, but I really like the idea of bringing in fresh dry air and having it heated.

 

[Prybry]

I've been using my Bethany Pickupper for a support vehical for the John Beargrease sled dog race along the north shore of MN... picture camping in January (-10 at night) in what amounts to a pop-up camper in the back of a pickup.

Condensation has not been my biggest issue, I'm guessing it due to the leaky nature of the pop-up design. My biggest issues have been power and fuel...

Power from the stand point of battery capacity... I'm setup on location for up to 5 days and we try to avoid running a generator for that long. With the LP furnace using 12 vdc power to run the fan and the cold (-10F) impacting battery capacity I finally switched to using a radiant 10K btu Kerosene heater... as I can get nearly a day of heat from a single gallon of kerosene. It also does not add to the moisture level like the LP heater did.

I did add some cheap thermal insulation to the side walls in the form of heavy moving blankets which I fastened to the outside and drapped over the side wings of the camper to add some level of heat retention.
This year I'm planning to add a second layer of themal blankets to the inside walls over the bunks.

I also bring the temp up inside the camper running both heaters to maximize the flex of the camper side wall material just prior to folding it away. The older vinyl coated canvas material on my camper is to stiff to fold at anything below 20F.

Bottom line... time and experience will show you the weak points of any camper and you make adjustments from there...