Communication options

[Karma]

HI xtatic,
For rescue, I trust SAR. They are the experts. All of the SAR folks I have talked to, and I've talked to a few, STRONGLY favor PLB's. Jeez, I'm not making this stuff up. I still maintain that ham radio is basically entertainment that may (or may not) have some use for emergency rescue. If ham works in a given case, you are lucky. The PLB systems removes luck from the equation. There is no place for luck in an emergency situation.

In all cases, even with PLB's, we are playing the odds. So, I see the best system is one that maximizes the odds for a successful and timely rescue. All data I have seen points to PLB's as the best odds breaker. If you wish to argue with the historical data, it is your choice.

Somehow, a complete mystery to me, some folks seem to think this is narrow minded. I suspect these same folks would say the same thing about people who with great fervor tout seat belts as a lifesaver and not back down from this position. But, I know some folks would argue all day long that they would not use seat belts. Again, this argument is a complete mystery to me. I will not resort to name calling because this has been a relatively civil thread. But you can imagine what I am thinking.

Sparky

 

[Tennmogger]

I'm one of those ham radio zealots, too. But I'm also an offroad zealot, camping zealot, and old truck zealot, and none of those "zealotries" have ever been thrown at me like a curse word. My Karma might be damaged. I shall therefore refrain from expounding on the benefits of HF Ham Radio for emergency communications.

Consider this: 98 % of PLB activations are false (that's on the internet so must be true!). A good number of malicious PLB activations and chases happen each year. A real SAR activation is expensive! SAR and other authorities have had to slow their responses to PLB activations for those reasons. Predictions are that future responses are going to get even slower as PLB usage increases.

PLB's popularity is it's worst enemy.

SAR's: have any of you ever had the joy of working alongside a Sheriff's department volunteer search team when all they have is a LAT-LON on a piece of paper? If you think your PLB activation will bring out the National Guard or any other specific rescue team, think again. It gets handed down to the lowest rung, local authorities, for the area involved, and is then escalated back up if they can't handle it. Ponder the time it takes for that to happen as you press your PLB button.

Bob

 

[Jeff Dodgen]

Thanks for chiming in Bob. This thread has confused me more than anything. I think the next outing I may just hang out and ask you questions. And I was wondering about all this SAR stuff. Maybe that happens out west since all the remarks about SAR were from people on that side, but it doesn't happen here. In Lumpkin County we had a backpack on the ambulance and would have to walk the AT if there was a call there. Hopefully you didn't get the 300lb guy on the truck that day. The wilderness calls out here always went to the local authorites. *Maybe*, just maybe, someone might contact the Ranger Camp to see if they could assist but that would be it.

 

[cnynrat]

Consider this: 98 % of PLB activations are false (that's on the internet so must be true!). A good number of malicious PLB activations and chases happen each year. A real SAR activation is expensive! SAR and other authorities have had to slow their responses to PLB activations for those reasons. Predictions are that future responses are going to get even slower as PLB usage increases.

PLB's popularity is it's worst enemy.

It seems like those reports of malicious PLB activations are from a couple years ago. Looks to me like it was a few isolated instances, not something that is ongoing or widespread. Certainly could become an issue though.

Registering your 406 MHz PLB will help and apparently does reduce response time. It is legally required, but apparently a large majority of devices are never registered. When you register you provide an emergency contact, which can also be used to reduce response time. Apparently they first thing they will do is call your contact, and if they can confirm that you are on a trip to an area that will reduce delays. There is also an ability to file a brief trip plan with an on-line registration, but you need to remember to do that and take it down when you are done.

 

[KA5IVR]

Being a "Ham Zealot" and having a sailing/cruising background....I would tell you both are great at their respective purposes, and both are mandatory for a major ocean crossing.
But, let's get real for a minute here....that's not what most are doing here, and I can tell you that a PLB is stronger medicine than would be needed in 99% of the situations motorists (on or offroad) might find themselves in 99% of the time. The main reason PLB's haven't been discussed more here is simply because more suitable (useful) options exist. And, don't take this the wrong way cuz PLB's do have a purpose when things go to complete diarrhea.
A HF radio can summon help 100% of the time from anywhere on this continent. I would accept a challenge on this point from anyone at anytime. What's more...I can summon precisely the type and amount of help I need at anytime I might need it.
These discussions pop up here periodically and I have always advocated the upgrade in license class and the use of HF. I have also advocated the use and redundancy afforded with a satphone. Between these two tools, you will have all the capabilities necessary for on-trail communications and the ability to hail help when needed.
IMO, for our purposes (ahem....offroad car glamping)...the purchase of a PLB represents money spent that would serve me in no other way and at no other time but a dire, grave and hopefully singular event. Sorry, but I just feel I get more bang for my buck with an HF/Multiband radio when all the functions it provides me are considered. It far exceeds in usefullness when compared to a PLB.

I agree & call me a Ham Zealot if anyone wants, but several posts by Hams on here are telling you straight. Folks, in a previous thread http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/70659-Emaergency-Survival-Kit-Hoping-For-Your-Comments/page14 I had a similar discussion with Sparky. That thread turned out some good information, hopefully this one will too.

HI xtatik,
Ah, spoken like zealot! You make my point. Thanks. And you wonder why I would not trust your advice?

Sparky

Sparky, I understand from our conversation where you are coming from, but the rest of these guys don't. You need to explain about the Costs and Space issues you are impacted by before getting all side tracked.

 

[xtatik]

HI xtatic,
For rescue, I trust SAR. They are the experts. All of the SAR folks I have talked to, and I've talked to a few, STRONGLY favor PLB's. Jeez, I'm not making this stuff up.
Sparky

For rescue, I trust SAR also, SAR experts are the experts at SAR..........once their called. Problem is, most of them (not all) haven't a care or clue how these devices work. They only know what most consumers know......if you push thissy here button, stuff happens and it usually goes well. They prefer PLB's because they, like yourself, haven't got a clue how to use any other means of skywave radio communication. Like I mentioned above, they're "operator-proof" and this is why they recommend them. If I was a "SAR expert" and was being asked for advice by average blokes, I too would immediately default to and suggest a PLB. Why?....because I couldn't assume that individual had any knowledge of radio communication or backcountry skills. I couldn't risk assuming that they may be capable of self-help by having acquired "skills". If I were a "SAR expert" it would best serve my interests to assume everyone was a complete "know-nothing". As a "SAR expert" with no knowledge of skywave radio communication, it would be an irresponsible act to suggest any other means to someone who isn't inclined to learn and become skilled and licensed.
Having said that....I will still concede that a PLB has its place and is a very viable means of emergency communication when warranted. In our case, it would purely be a glove box SHTF device. Short of that, you could use it as a dash top map weight or something......maybe.

 

[xtatik]

Randy, I would challenge your 100% commitment. Very high probability, sure I buy that, but not 100% (is the MTBF of your HF rig infinite?). There is no way to prove it out either way though. Sending you out and having you successfully make 1, 10 or even 100 contacts proves nothing. My concern wouldn't be so much with the ability to make contact with someone, it's the uncertainty about who that person will be and how well equipped they will be to quickly get the right agency involved for your location and emergency. There is a pretty high probability that you may end up contacting someone who is not local to the emergency. It's perhaps a small risk, but I think a PLB would have an advantage in terms of ensuring a rapid response in a real emergency situation. If there is no other difference I would wager the MTBF of a PLB is measurably higher than an HF mobile rig, and in the typical usage scenario the HF rig will accumulate usage hours much faster than a PLB that is rarely used.

Well, my 100% would be a match to anyone elses similarly reasoned claim. And, my MTBF is just about as incalculable as it would be for most similar devices......I have personally never had a failure.
In fact, I've never had a failure of either a radio or the ability to make a contact. Nevertheless, I'm willing to concede on your point concerning the possible reliability differences twixt my trusty 857d and a perpetually glove boxed PLB. But, trying to calculate its possible failure to the precise moment I would need it most.............Naahhhh! Seriously....really? If that were to happen, I'd have to assume much greater forces were working against me.

Dave, no doubt my method requires me to keep my station in order for it to function efficiently. It's no different for a ships captain. He should know his position, who's water he's in, and who best to summon for help.
All, I would require is someone as efficient at using a telephone as they are with their radio, and this is no tall order amongst hams.
Lets assume I got you on the other end and you answered my call. Let's assume I'm traveling in another state. If I were to give you my personal particulars, precise location, vehicle description, and the phone number for the local (to me) sheriffs office........could you handle making the telephone call? I'll expand the question and ask if you think most licensed hams that frequent this section couldn't handle the task.....it's really not that tough, and I think they could.
Again, it's my responsibility to provide information for the other operator as to who should be called. He may be a sharp dude and know more than I about the area, or I may have to walk him thru a bit. Bottom line is....it's my job to do that homework before I set out. I should know whose jurisdictions I would be traveling through at any given point in my travel and I should know where I am. Beyond that, it's just a matter of conveying my needs....a fan belt or a helicopter ride.

 

[1911]

... Jeez, I'm not making this stuff up. I still maintain that ham radio is basically entertainment that may (or may not) have some use for emergency rescue. If ham works in a given case, you are lucky.

OK, now you ARE making stuff up. You have no experience whatsoever with ham radio, yet you know that it is "entertainment that may (or may not) have some use for emergency rescue"? If you don't like ham radio and don't want to be a ham operator that's OK, lots of people don't, but it is pretty ignorant to make statements like that about something with which you have no experience.

Somehow, a complete mystery to me, some folks seem to think this is narrow minded.

Narrow-minded, maybe not - but closed-minded to any advice or opinion that you don't want to hear, yes; in this and other threads and topics here on ExPo.

Use whatever you want for emergency communication, it doesn't matter to me what you choose.

 

[cnynrat]

Well, my 100% would be a match to anyone elses similarly reasoned claim. And, my MTBF is just about as incalculable as it would be for most similar devices......I have personally never had a failure.

Well, it's quite easy to calculate MTBF if you know the particulars of the design and the operating environment. As a first order approximation it's temperature and parts count that kills MTBF, and with a PLB being a simpler and lower power device compared to an HF rig it should have a higher MTBF. Your experience may lead you to conclude the difference isn't meaningful, but I'm sure it's there.

Dave, no doubt my method requires me to keep my station in order for it to function efficiently. It's no different for a ships captain. He should know his position, who's water he's in, and who best to summon for help. ...

I completely agree that if you take the initiative to research the appropriate contacts for your region of travel in advance this largely mitigates my concerns about who you contact and accurately transferring the needed information. Certainly, this is a good practice even for folks thinking they may have cell coverage and might have a need to call for help that way. And again, there is a real benefit to being able to describe the nature of the emergency to the folks coming for help, which is a shortcoming of the 406 MHz PLBs.

It's all about tradeoffs ....

 

[xtatik]

Well, it's quite easy to calculate MTBF if you know the particulars of the design and the operating environment. As a first order approximation it's temperature and parts count that kills MTBF, and with a PLB being a simpler and lower power device compared to an HF rig it should have a higher MTBF. Your experience may lead you to conclude the difference isn't meaningful, but I'm sure it's there.

I'm sure it's there as well. But, can you calculate for me exactly when my 857d will fail? Next, can you calculate when I'll be experiencing my next emergency? And finally, can you calculate and reconcile these two calculations? It would be good to know the precise moment in time when this nexus of events might occur.:coffeedrink:
If you can do this.....let's talk lottery mmkay?

 

[cnynrat]

I'm sure it's there as well. But, can you calculate for me exactly when my 857d will fail? Next, can you calculate when I'll be experiencing my next emergency? And finally, can you calculate and reconcile these two calculations? It would be good to know the precise moment in time when this nexus of events might occur.:coffeedrink:
If you can do this.....let's talk lottery mmkay?

This is really a rather silly line of argument, as I suspect you are well aware being a super-duper HF ham zea ... err enthusiast.

MTBF, that's MEAN Time Between Failures. It's about probabilities, not events that happen at some time certain in the future. Let's assume you were to buy a brand spanking new HF rig tomorrow, and a brand spanking new PLB as well. You go about your travels, using the radio to contact folks in Argentina from time to time or whatever it is that you HF guys do, and tuck the PLB away in your emergency bag for, well, emergencies. At any time in the future, whether that be next month, or five years from now, the probability that your HF rig fails will be higher than the probability that the PLB fails. Why? The HF rig has more components that are operating at a higher average temperatures since it's pumping out, I'm guessing, 100W, and it's also accumulating operating hours at a faster rate than the PLB.

That doesn't mean don't rely on an HF rig - as with most modern electronics the reliability is quite remarkable. I think your proposed suite of comms gear (HF + Iridium satphone) provides very robust emergency capabilities, albeit at a higher than average price. I just don't think you can claim 100% probability of successfully calling in a SAR team while implying that the probability with a PLB would be less. Just on the question of the failure rate of the electronics I think the PLB has an advantage.

 

[Karma]

HI All,
You should not assume that I have no experience with ham radio or expertise. First, I have worked in communication electronics for over 50 years, longer than most of you have been alive. I worked for many years for NASA on the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs designing high performance PCM telemetry data communication systems to be used by orbiting space craft. Then I left NASA and worked for Los Alamos National Laboratory for nearly 30 years developing high performance digital data acquisition systems that operated in highly radioactive environments.

I have been around ham radio a great deal. Many of my co-workers and friends are hams and we have spent hours discussing the technical aspects of ham radio such as the advantages of single side band, modulation techniques, antenna theory, wave propagation through the atmosphere, and most interesting to me, filter theory. All very interesting stuff. I have also studied the history of amateur radio as well as radio theory in general. Oh yes, many hours in stuffy ham shacks, most of them very enjoyable.

I have studied for a ham license when code was still a part of the process. I never went so far as to get a license because of life intruding and the fact that I found that most ham contacts were deadly boring. It just didn't capture my interest on a practical level though theoretically, radio is very interesting to me. Of course, now you guy's are mere operators because everything can be bought off the shelf. When I was most involved, much of the hardware had to be designed by the ham. Therefore, most were electronic engineers as am I. You all have really just turned into sophisticated button pushers with a large wallet to buy what you want. How many of you could actually design a ham radio? I can.

I have owned ham transceivers and have monitored the ham bands quite a bit. That's how I discovered that ham radio was not going to be one of my avocations.

I have tremendous respect for ham operators and the development of ham radio as well as the advances ham radio has made to radio in general. The best of the ham operators are good indeed. But not all hams are created equal.

I know it is comfortable for you to think I disagree with you because I don't know what I am talking about. It's just not true. My attitudes about emergency rescue is strictly based upon my evaluation of available technology and which of these has the best chance of succeeding, without fail. This is not unlike doing the system reliability analysis of a space telemetry system. All factors, including electronic, mechanical, environmental, and human must be taken into consideration in the space environment where a failure is not an option.

Some of you have revealed your prejudices about PLB. You seem to feel that it a dumb technology, that it doesn't challenge your technical expertise. I'm sure this is true. But this doesn't make the PLB system less effective. It just removes your personal skill set from the discussion and replaces it with a system that is nearly 100% effective. You consider this to be a drawback of the PLB system. I consider it to be its primary strength. Keep your ham fingers out of the pie. The system will be better statistically.

Sparky

 

[tikidollracer]

personally, i'm waiting for the rectal PLB unit. then i'll never be away from one, and anytime something bad happens to me i can just squeeze my cheeks and call mommy.

-SM-

 

[Daryl]

HI All,
You all have really just turned into sophisticated button pushers with a large wallet to buy what you want. How many of you could actually design a ham radio? I can.

Even if you are trying to make a point, you just can't stop yourself from insulting people, can you? I'd think that you're old enough to have figured out a better way to communicate by now, but apparently not.

A lot of people with amateur radio licenses got into it because they like building things, myself included. I have built and designed radios (no, not just kits) and am very much not unique in this. Many amateurs do.

If you want your points to be taken seriously as a part of a discussion you really ought to dial back the attacks. Also, listing your personal history to try to give yourself some sort of credibility (because your other posts aren't cutting is) is a move the reeks of desperation.

If you crave attention so badly, I suppose this is one way to get it. But you very likely know enough to actually get attention by constructively contributing to conversations as well. But I'm going to guess we'll never know.

 

[Karma]

HI Daryl,
It's not me. You just insult easily.

I concede that many hams do take up the soldering iron. Most of them are older that are still hanging on the basic roots of the hobby. The truth is that most of today's ham equipment is so sophisticated that the average person has no chance of duplicating them on the home bench. Do you disagree?

As for my qualifications, I was accused of not knowing anything about ham radio. I felt that those folks needed another excuse because that one won't work.

But in truth, this conversation has devolved into hams defending their love. This is too bad. Ham radio has no need for defending. But as a search and rescue tool, it is deficient in same way a car is not an airplane but both are transportation. Each has a different use.

I'm not going to back down from this point. If it insults you, that is your choice.

Sparky