CTIS... crazy nonsense or awesome possibility?

[mgmetalworks]

Sometimes a seemingly random thought that pops into my head leads to a moment where I ask myself: "Is this crazy nonsense or an awesome possibility?"
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Admittedly most of the ideas that pop into my head (while daydreaming about my van) don't get much farther than my internal reality check of: "How much would THAT cost?" but this idea keeps coming back to fight for more brain processing time. I'm not saying I have it all figured out but I have a pretty clever idea for how to make it work and I want to know if it is something I should pursue.
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As far as I can tell, a "through-hub" CTIS (central tire inflation system) hasn't been done for something like a Dana 60 unless you're using portal axles...which, let's face it, our vans don't really need that kind of rock crawling bling. But what if a simple design could be made for a common axle(s) and you could have a system to air up or air down at will or maintain tire pressure? Is this crazy talk? Not possible now, never will be?
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I'm looking for a reality check here. What are the challenges to this as you guys see it? I want to either stop thinking about it because it is not worth the effort or start putting some real engineering time into building a proof of concept (after I get other projects done that is).
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Discuss...

 

[njtacoma]

My question would be is there enough room in the knuckle and at the hub end for the manifolds necessary to deliver the air out to the outside of the rim?
A follow up, will the volume of air (how long does air up or down take) be "worth it" for the cost and complexity?

I'm more familiar with larger hydraulic manifolds in excavators and the like, but if I scale those down to something that fits on a knuckle for a dana 60 it seems like the seals get really small.

I'm not an engineer, and only have a smidgen of real world exposure to these manifolds, but it seems like the ROI (whatever it is, cool factor, safety, money) would say no to this possibility.

My $.02

 

[mgmetalworks]

Exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for! Thank you! All valid points you're making.

The method I'm thinking of wouldn't have a small (size) seal problem but space is definitely an issue for the assembly.

 

[1leglance]

If you can keep the final cost to the customer under $1000 for compressor and all parts for a full 4 tire CTIS that allows easy tire/wheel change in the field.....well you would sell plenty of those.
If you can get it under $700 then you will sell as many as you can make.

Here is my biggest concern for you....
Intellectual product protection, as in how long will you have until a Chinese version of your product undercuts you? Especially if you have any manufacturing in China where the factory itself could sell the 3rd shift production.

I have always wanted a CTIS setup and there are plenty of other people running fairly common axles that would also jump on the idea.

 

[12husky]

CTIS that doesn't go through the hub, but instead over the tire, is common in other applications and I think could fit EXPO applications. If the system is properly shielded and built robust enough, I think it could be a winner. Going through the shaft in a non-portal application is cost prohibitive to me unless you come up with a new breakthrough.

I think inflation / deflation speed is less critical with CTIS since you can be activating it while still driving.

 

[mgmetalworks]

If you can keep the final cost to the customer under $1000 for compressor and all parts for a full 4 tire CTIS that allows easy tire/wheel change in the field.....well you would sell plenty of those.
If you can get it under $700 then you will sell as many as you can make.

Here is my biggest concern for you....
Intellectual product protection, as in how long will you have until a Chinese version of your product undercuts you? Especially if you have any manufacturing in China where the factory itself could sell the 3rd shift production.

I have always wanted a CTIS setup and there are plenty of other people running fairly common axles that would also jump on the idea.

I really have no idea how much it would cost to do this but I think under a grand is a tough target based on some of the parts I've been eyeing. I don't disagree with you though. Those price points would be ideal but in order to get some steep discounts on parts for the kit, the volume would have to be pretty high. Something to shoot for!
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I've had the "good fortune" of spending a considerable amount of time in high volume manufacturing facilities in China and parts of SE Asia. I won't deny that intellectual property protection is tough to keep a handle on when you're dealing with those overseas factories but I've had just as many experiences with unscrupulous businessmen right here in the greedy ol' US of A. To add insult to injury, I think our patent system is completely lopsided towards big business and companies that buy up ideas just to sue for licensing fees. I started down the path of patenting an idea of mine a couple years ago and I came to the conclusion that unless you have a design for a time machine or something that would change humankind forever, you're likely going to spend years and thousands of dollars getting nowhere (but making a lawyer a pretty good chunk of change). In my opinion, being first to market, selling as many as you possibly can in the shortest amount of time and walking away when competition floods the market with imitations to work on the next idea is the best chance us "little guys" have of making it work.
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To get around having your ideas stolen (or at least delaying the inevitable) you can split up part production among several factories. That way at least it takes people a little longer to figure out what they're making parts for.

 

[mgmetalworks]

CTIS that doesn't go through the hub, but instead over the tire, is common in other applications and I think could fit EXPO applications. If the system is properly shielded and built robust enough, I think it could be a winner. Going through the shaft in a non-portal application is cost prohibitive to me unless you come up with a new breakthrough.

I think inflation / deflation speed is less critical with CTIS since you can be activating it while still driving.

I'm thinking of an idea that isn't through the center of the hub but is still inside the fender well so it can be protected.

 

[12husky]

I'm thinking of an idea that isn't through the center of the hub but is still inside the fender well so it can be protected.

Staying inside the fender would be great. Around here, I am not doing anything that would really bash on a line, but there are plenty of trees and shrubs trying to snatch at it.

 

[mgmetalworks]

I couldn't resist putting in a couple hours of research on the feasibility of this...
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I identified a few different candidates for seals that are designed for high pressure applications in less than perfect environmental conditions. Readily available, lots of options for sizes and service life would be on par with what you'd want. They'd work perfectly for the idea I am thinking of.
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Sealing isn't necessarily the hard part unfortunately.... Physical space is the real limiting factor, and there is not much of it to work with. I'm thinking that this idea isn't crazy nonsense but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is an awesome possibility yet because it would have to be really easy to install and relatively cheap to be truly awesome.
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Feasible? probably.... Cheap? probably not.... Easy? it depends on what your definition of easy is.

 

[12husky]

I couldn't resist putting in a couple hours of research on the feasibility of this...
.
I identified a few different candidates for seals that are designed for high pressure applications in less than perfect environmental conditions. Readily available, lots of options for sizes and service life would be on par with what you'd want. They'd work perfectly for the idea I am thinking of.
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Sealing isn't necessarily the hard part unfortunately.... Physical space is the real limiting factor, and there is not much of it to work with. I'm thinking that this idea isn't crazy nonsense but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is an awesome possibility yet because it would have to be really easy to install and relatively cheap to be truly awesome.
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Feasible? probably.... Cheap? probably not.... Easy? it depends on what your definition of easy is.

Great news, it would be cool to see you move forward with this

 

[r_w]

crazy nonsense or awesome possibility?

C. Crazy awesome!

 

[mgmetalworks]

C. Crazy awesome!

I know, right?! I should work on this shouldn't I? :Mechanic:
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I'll be doing some work on the axles soon after the Cummins project is done so maybe a prototype is in order. Its worth a closer look in my opinion. Even if it doesn't work I still get to learn a lot in the process.

 

[sett]

This should have been done 20 years ago.

 

[mgmetalworks]

This should have been done 20 years ago.

I'm pretty sure it has been done by the big 3 since I've read about some defense projects that listed CTIS as a feature on specially equipped 1-ton trucks...but of course there are no pictures or details about how they did it or how well it worked.

 

[Toolman]

I have thought of using Humvee system however, it seems like I would want to spend my money and time elsewhere. Everyone else has to pull over and air up or down so you'll be waiting on them any way. I'm learning the KISS method is the most effective