D- vs. E-rated BFGoodrich A/T KO

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
I suggest and would buy myself Load-Range-D for many of the reason mentioned here:

Softer/better ride
softer/different compound for snow/ice
deeper tread depth on some tires
Sometimes a bit less money

Even on my heavy pickup I prefer D-load-range. I will only buy E if I can’t get the tires I want in D.
 

mauricio_28

Adventurer
hoser said:
madizell, my E load Toyo MT's at 45psi are not comfortable but at 35-38psi, it is fine. So, actually, I am hoping you are correct. But did you look at the Nitto link:

http://www.nittotire.com/assets/saf...ht Trucks.pdf#search="p-metric lt load range"

From their tire temperature pictures, they make it seem like a 10 degree difference would be a big deal. They went from ~104 degrees (green) at 50 psi to ~112 degrees (red) at 30 psi but they do not say at what load. The temperature they were most concerned with were the main plies under the rubber tread. Would your IR gun be able to measure that?

I can't think of any reason why they would try to mislead as it is a tech/safety article and nothing to do with tire sales.


Look at a similar discussion under my PIRELLI SCORPION ATR LT265/75R16 ON NAVARA thread. I, too, came across several references, including that Nitto one, stating that LT tires need more pressure. From solely a contact patch perspective, my E-rated Scorpions are best at 40psi front, 35psi rear with an unloaded (crew cab,tdi engine) Navara with a 1160kg/800gk (59%/41%) weight distribution. At those psi, the rig even feels more plush than with the P tires (255/70 H/T) it had before. There's really nothing objectionable about the E-rated tire, except perhaps the increased (rotational) weight.
 

madizell

Explorer
Guinness44 said:
Dont forget to watch the rims max. pressure rating also.

Rims in this case are Outback TX-1's rated at 1,400 kg each (3,080 pounds), so they too are well over-rated for the job on a light duty truck. If they have a "pressure maximum rating" I don't know what it is, and have never seen a pressure rating stated for a wheel versus a tire. Usually this is not an issue, as most rims will be rated for more than the weight of the truck to which they will mount, and I have never known a wheel to fail from too much air pressure. Excessive air pressure will generally dismount the tire before the wheel itself fails. If this is not what was meant, please clarify.
 

Guinness44

Adventurer
madizell:

A lot of rims have a max. XX psi stamped. Usually on the back next to the max.load. Sometimes inside (so the tire covers it). Some tire shop employees seem to just air up tires to the max. it sais on the sidewall (happened with my horsetrailer 80 psi, and it calls for 50, and the rims say max. 60.....).

Also puncture problems, sharp rocks, sticks, etc. will puncture a tire more likely fully aired up. (Heard of an interesting test in a Aussie magazine, driving over a stake.....). Oooops, didnt I already write that. sorry.
 

MoGas

Central Scrutinizer
I don't think the E load has the Severe Snow rating. That is why I went with the D rated BFG AT/KO. Mine is a DD and we get alot of snow here.
101_1796.jpg


Dave
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
Exactly. More air is not always better, even on the street. People are so concerned about under-inflation on-highway (good thinking) that they overcompensate with improper or over-inflation.

Guinness44 said:
SNIP...
Also puncture problems, sharp rocks, sticks, etc. will puncture a tire more likely fully aired up. (Heard of an interesting test in a Aussie magazine, driving over a stake.....). Oooops, didnt I already write that. sorry.
 

madizell

Explorer
hoser said:
The temperature they were most concerned with were the main plies under the rubber tread. Would your IR gun be able to measure that?

I can't think of any reason why they would try to mislead as it is a tech/safety article and nothing to do with tire sales.


I don't see why the IR would not be able to detect differences in temperature across the tread, but of course my instrument displays degrees literally, and does not graph temperatures with color, so one would need to grid the tread and record temperatures across the grid -- time consuming.

I don't think any tire manufacturer would deliberately mislead, even to boost sales. I would have to read the article and have not done so yet, but having spent my career reading technical papers and court cases, I can observe that without knowing the exact context in which something is written, the meaning can get lost or be misconstrued.

Also remember that "tire safety" is not solely the province of the manufacturer, at least not in the US. Here, manufacturers also have to deal with the fed, so there are times when even technical papers will reflect the current regulatory thinking, not necessarily reflect the results of an unbiased (or at least unfettered) testing of a product.
 

Mudpro

New member
A ton of people cautioned me not to get the Toyo MTs because they were E rated and "too stiff" and "too heavy" for off-roading. 100% of those offering that advice had not owned the tire themselves, they were simply making an assumption, and had completely forgotten that the Goodyear MTR that came standard on the TJ Rubicon was also E rated.

My experience with the E rated Toyos has been terrific overall. They are not as flexy in the rocks, but not bad. And have held up remarkably well in the sharp stuff where some others have cut a sidewall. And as long as I have them at about 35 - 40 psi, they are very comfortable on the road.
 

madizell

Explorer
I read the Nitto bulletin referenced earlier and I don't find anything in it that is misleading. I do, however, find that unless you start with the context offerd, the message is misleading.

For example, the concern raised here was that under-inflated tires generate excessive heat, and if this were not an issue, why would Nitto say it was? What Nitto says is that the IR photos they use show two tires 'at equivalent load' with pressures of 30psi and 50psi. The tire with the lower pressure ran hotter. The question is "why?"

The answer is in the next paragraph, bottom of page one of the bulletin. Nitto states therein that the 30psi tire was "under-inflated" while the 50spi tire was not. If not, then the 50spi tire must have been carrying pressure sufficient for whatever the "equivalent load" was, i.e., 2,601 pounds, since that is the example they are running in the bulletin.

Obviously, if you have a load on board that results in a per tire load of 2,601 pounds (10,404 pounds if evenly distributed over 4 tires), you would need to run 50psi and certainly would not want to run 30psi. Thus, the example is skewed in my opinion by the starting premise, that you are running a load requiring 50psi. Or is not skewed, the premise of the example is not as clearly stated as it could have been.

Of course, we generally don't run max loads with expedition type trucks. Nor would it be feasible (or all that illuminating from the perspective of Nitto) to draft a bulletin that discusses intermediate positions, such as running D or E range tires at half or less of their rated load capacity. Such discussion would lead to more confusion than it would resolve because everybody would then offer their own personal "what if" and the answers would vary for each circumstance.

Here Nitto is simply making a point, that if you have a load that requires, say, 50psi for the tire you have, running at 30 will cause elevated temperatures and might compromise the tire. No doubt.

What we are looking for is the correct pressure for our tires, not the maximum, and we can do that by reference to the Tire and Rim Association (TRA) load capacity chart published for reference purposes by that association. I found a copy of that chart on the Toyo website, and there are doubtless several other sources for that chart. We can use the same example that Nitto used because as it happens, it is the same tire size that we have been discussing here in regard to Nissan Frontier/Navarra: P265/75/16 versus LT265/75/16. Nitto states that the P265 tire needs 35psi to carry 2,601 pounds. Fine. But does our truck actually carry anything even close to 2,601 pounds per tire? No. So, what would be the correct pressure to run in such a tire given the load that we do carry?

Determine the actual weight that you carry at GVWR (always assuming you will never overload your truck), determine the weight bias for your vehicle (50/50, 60/40, or whatever), and determine the gross weight each corner of the vehicle will need to carry. Pick a tire size, then refer to the chart.

For the Frontier at 5,600 pounds gross with a 60/40 front weight bias, each front tire will carry no more than 1,680 pounds, and each rear tire will carry no more than 1,120 pounds per tire. None of these weights comes near 2,601, so we can assume going in that none of the tires really "needs" to be inflated to 35psi for the P-metric or 50psi for the LT style tire. The needed pressure is going to be less roughly proportionate to the lesser weights actually to be carried.

The TRA chart for P-metric 265/75/16 tires shows a minimum value of 2,249 pounds at 26psi. Even if we downgrade the P-metric load capacity by the 1.1 factor discussed in the Nitto technical bulletin, at 26psi, the P265 will carry 2,049 pounds. This value is still well over the per tire load carried by the Frontier at GVWR.

The TRA chart for LT tires shows a minimum value of 1,910 pounds at 35psi for the LT265. Obviously this "heavy duty" tire is able to carry less weight pound for pound than the P-metric when used at the low end of the application scale. But still, at 1,901 pounds, the load capacity of the LT at 35psi is still above the maximum load any one of the tires on the Frontier will need to carry, and only 139 pounds less than the P-metric equivalent tire. Thus it is safe to use the LT265 in any station on the Frontier running no more than 35psi, which is the manufacturer's placard pressure for that vehicle.

If a difference of some 300 pounds of load capacity (1,910 v. 1,680) is not sufficient safety margin for you, or if you feel that you might take a fully loaded vehicle into dangerous terrain which will place more than a fair share of load on any one tire, you might want to adjust your pressures accordingly, but to simply say that just because you are using an LT instead of a P-metric, you HAVE to increase your tires pressures by 10 or 15 psi disregards the facts published by TRA and the various manufacturers and oversimplifies the problem. In this case, the needed pressure is about 9 pounds over the P-metric pressure for the roughly equivalent LT tire, but only when the pressure of the P-metric is adjusted downward to start with to compensate for actual load. In fact, both tires can be run at the placard pressure of 35psi without causing havoc.

So, to answer the original question about the Nitto bulletin, I find nothing in it that is misleading, deliberately or otherwise, but I do find that the information can be confusing or misleading if the bulletin is not read carefully. I am sure that was not the intention of Nitto.
 
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madizell

Explorer
Mudpro said:
A ton of people cautioned me not to get the Toyo MTs because they were E rated and "too stiff" and "too heavy" for off-roading. 100% of those offering that advice had not owned the tire themselves, they were simply making an assumption, and had completely forgotten that the Goodyear MTR that came standard on the TJ Rubicon was also E rated.

My experience with the E rated Toyos has been terrific overall. They are not as flexy in the rocks, but not bad. And have held up remarkably well in the sharp stuff where some others have cut a sidewall. And as long as I have them at about 35 - 40 psi, they are very comfortable on the road.

My experiences so far are similar. My D range BFG's on the F-150 are fine on the road at under 40psi unless I carry a full load, at which point I raise pressure to 42 or 44. The E range BFG's on the CJ5 run nicely on the road at 30psi or less, but are stiff on the trail at those pressures. Of course, off road driving routinely demands lowered pressures, and at that point we almost never attempt to determine whether load/pressure combinations are correct. Instead, we air for comfort and traction and never think about load capacities. I have run tires as low a 2psi off road, and I am pretty sure they would not technically "carry" the 5,300 pound Jeep I was driving, but they did it anyway (and I had my foot flat to the floor). It seems that only on the road do we become so confused or concerned about pressures in tires. Off road, we only try to keep them on the rims, yet off road we tend to abuse our tires more than on the road. I think this is just mindset.
 
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hoser

Explorer
madizell, Thanks for taking the time to write all that. It is definitely something for me to think about. I will have to weigh my rig and check its weight balance. I can only guess it's about 7500 lbs loaded with a little more bias to the rear.

mauricio_28, I just read your Pirelli Scorpion thread too. I almost missed all this good tech as it is hiding in the Nissan section!:smiley_drive:
 

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