Dexter Axles: Input needed, please

[1x1_Speed_Craig]

Thanks everyone. I'm sold on not getting a Torflex axle. As far as the wheels go, I didn't realize spacers would be the only option (I don't want to hole-saw the centers of mine).

Given this recent development, I may just look for a donor Jeep XJ/TJ/YJ axle, then weld on new spring perches. It'll be a LOT less expensive, and Dana 35s are more or less considered a "disposable axle" by many in the Jeep community, so I should be able to find one for cheap (my buddy used one on his trailer, and got it for a case of beer :sombrero. The width would be great, and there wouldn't be any wheel compatility issues.

I'm also going to research the whole Dodge minivan beam axle idea.

Still thinking it through...

Thanks again, everyone!
Craig

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I just don't get Stumps experience with the springs either. I have 3500 torsion axle on my trailer, which currently weighs 1800lbs IIRC, and it is really flexible, rides really smooth. If anything, it's too soft. It's ok now, but I can't imagine how it would ride with a real 3500lb load.

There must be differences between suppliers... which... really shouldn't be all that surprising.

 

[Martyn]

I just don't get Stumps experience with the springs either. I have 3500 torsion axle on my trailer, which currently weighs 1800lbs IIRC, and it is really flexible, rides really smooth. If anything, it's too soft. It's ok now, but I can't imagine how it would ride with a real 3500lb load.

There must be differences between suppliers... which... really shouldn't be all that surprising.

It's a little bit like riding around in a VW Beatle, and being very happy with life, then getting a ride in a Mercedes and feeling the difference. You could have lived your whole life thinking the ride in the VW was warm and comfortable if you had never set foot in the Mercedes.

It's the same way with trailer suspension.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I'm not saying they're the best, but to say it's like they're welded to the frame. Anything but, in my case. I have two trailers with the rubber axles, and both ride fantastic. I have a utility trailer with leaf springs, and it's horrible. It doesn't stop bouncing off the road until I have about double the weight rating loaded in it.

Well, my Seadoo trailer bounces a lot when it's empty. It weighs only about 450lbs by itself, and a 1500lb axle. I could see that if somebody had a VERY light off-road trailer, maybe there would be a problem. But both my trailer ride like Buicks with little more than half the rated weight in them.

 

[StumpXJ]

I just don't get Stumps experience with the springs either. I have 3500 torsion axle on my trailer, which currently weighs 1800lbs IIRC, and it is really flexible, rides really smooth. If anything, it's too soft. It's ok now, but I can't imagine how it would ride with a real 3500lb load.

There must be differences between suppliers... which... really shouldn't be all that surprising.

Not sure, maybe your rubber springs are worn out or mine were defective. I just know they sucked. I dont know how else to put it. If your trailer weighs 1800 pounds (crap thats heavy...) it probably does ride much better than a trailer with the same axle, but half the weight. Like I mentioned, the more weight I added, the better it got. But I dont always have that much weight, so I got tired of having to 'deal' with it when it was empty.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73484&postcount=18

On typical trailer springs I agree with Martyn. They're a poor idea for this use. I think they're just a poor overall. The softer the spring, the more important the damping becomes so make the shocks an integral part of any long leaf design.

EDIT:
Stump, Interesting and totally contradictory experience. What tire size and psi do you use on the Torflex? Mine came to me with 33-12.50's on it and I've run on as low as 5psi (unknowingly) for a long distance.

I wouldnt dream of running a regular 24" trailer spring. Those things are a joke. I have a set that i have been trying to get the recycling guys to pick for months now if anyone wants a set. There are TONS of different springs you can get right from the junk for 10 bucks. Add and remove leafs as need to get the proper ride height, and weight support, put on shocks, and you are good. Or, a better option would be to get a couple good main leafs (just one leaf with the eyes on each end) and use it as an axle locator. put on airbags and shocks for the load and dampening, and you have a very plush ride, while being totally adjustable.

I run a 31 x 10.50 R15 Cooper STT tire on mine. I usually run 30 - 35 psi. Depending on the load.

It's a little bit like riding around in a VW Beatle, and being very happy with life, then getting a ride in a Mercedes and feeling the difference. You could have lived your whole life thinking the ride in the VW was warm and comfortable if you had never set foot in the Mercedes.

It's the same way with trailer suspension.

I dont think I could say it better myself, so I will just quote Martyn.

I'm not saying they're the best, but to say it's like they're welded to the frame. Anything but, in my case. I have two trailers with the rubber axles, and both ride fantastic. I have a utility trailer with leaf springs, and it's horrible. It doesn't stop bouncing off the road until I have about double the weight rating loaded in it.

Well, my Seadoo trailer bounces a lot when it's empty. It weighs only about 450lbs by itself, and a 1500lb axle. I could see that if somebody had a VERY light off-road trailer, maybe there would be a problem. But both my trailer ride like Buicks with little more than half the rated weight in them.

Again, regular short trailer leaf springs are a joke, I would never run a set of them on any trailer. My trailer, when empty and before I finished it, when it had the old torsion axle under it bounced more than it rolled. I have pulled farm trailers around whose axles are welded to the frame, and they seemd to have pulled better. Putting shocks on the torsion axles probably help tremendously, I never tried since they were way to stiff when empty anyway. What works for me, doesnt always work for the next guy. And the opposite holds true.

Just giving my first hand experience. The trailing arm and airbag/shock supsension I have now handles better on and offroad FAR better than anything I have ever owned or seen work personally. I have not actually weighed my finished trailer yet, but its not light. I dont think it weighs quite as much as yours Rob, but its probably closer than I think. Especially fully loaded with 20 gallon of water and 20 gallons of fuel.

>>>>>To the OP, I would recommend searching craigslist for a regular 3500# solid axle. They can be narrowed quite esily if you find one too wide. I found mine, brand new Dexter with 10 inch electric brakes for 100 bucks. Then, I would at the very least, run a sami of jeep spring with a shacke set-up. I personaly would forget the torsion axle. You are obviously good with fabrication, you could easily build the same thing I did (or similar), and have a awesome riding, fully adjustable suspension for a lot cheaper than you may realize. Firestone Airbags are inexpensive. I *might* have 200 bucks in my entire suspension, although I already owned two airbags.

Confused yet? :victory:

Just go with your gut. The beauty of metal fab is it can always be changed...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Not sure, maybe your rubber springs are worn out or mine were defective. I just know they sucked. I dont know how else to put it. If your trailer weighs 1800 pounds (crap thats heavy...) it probably does ride much better than a trailer with the same axle, but half the weight. Like I mentioned, the more weight I added, the better it got. But I dont always have that much weight, so I got tired of having to 'deal' with it when it was empty.

I'm talking about new springs in both cases. If you had a 900lbs trailer on 3500lb axles... I could see that being rough. As I said, my PWC trailer empty is 450lbs, with a 1500 axle, and when the Seadoo isn't on it, yeah, it jumps around. I'd expect a leaf spring to do the same. I think the only advantage to a leaf spring in that specific regard, is that it's so easy to buy a 3500lbs axle, but put lighter springs on it.

1800lbs isn't actually that much. I think many of the larger trailers (Horizon, Campa, etc.) trailers get up there once you option them out and put on all the standard items (battery, RTT, etc.)

>>>>>To the OP, I would recommend searching craigslist for a regular 3500# solid axle. They can be narrowed quite esily if you find one too wide. I found mine, brand new Dexter with 10 inch electric brakes for 100 bucks. Then, I would at the very least, run a sami of jeep spring with a shacke set-up. I personaly would forget the torsion axle. You are obviously good with fabrication, you could easily build the same thing I did (or similar), and have a awesome riding, fully adjustable suspension for a lot cheaper than you may realize. Firestone Airbags are inexpensive. I *might* have 200 bucks in my entire suspension, although I already owned two airbags.

All this being said... while I love the rubber axles on road vehicles, the seeds of doubt have been sown. If I were to start again, I'd just go solid axle on some Jeep springs. My biggest problem, was my mind was stuck in Spring-Over-Axle mode, which resulted in much too high of a floor for my design. That's why I went with the rubber axles. My brain was just stuck in that gear because it's what everybody talks about. It was only afterwards that it hit me...

 

[StumpXJ]

I'm talking about new springs in both cases. If you had a 900lbs trailer on 3500lb axles... I could see that being rough. As I said, my PWC trailer empty is 450lbs, with a 1500 axle, and when the Seadoo isn't on it, yeah, it jumps around. I'd expect a leaf spring to do the same. I think the only advantage to a leaf spring in that specific regard, is that it's so easy to buy a 3500lbs axle, but put lighter springs on it.

1800lbs isn't actually that much. I think many of the larger trailers (Horizon, Campa, etc.) trailers get up there once you option them out and put on all the standard items (battery, RTT, etc.)

All good points. In reality, I have no idea what mine weighs. I know for a fact the sheet metal alone was exactly 500 pounds. But the frame is not as 'beefily' (my word for the day) boxed as some of the trailers I see. It was already built, and worked just fine as an enclosed utility trailer, so I didnt see the need to add any to it, especially once the sheet metal floor was welded in. I have 2x3 main structure, but most of the cross pieces are thinner c-channel. The axle,brakes, suspension (shocks, bags, trailing arms etc) weighs probably 130 pounds tops. Tires and wheels maybe another 150 pounds total. It adds up quickly... then throw in 40 gallons of various liquids, RTT, battery, and fridge. It will be a cow before you know it for sure.

I am now REALLY curious to get it weighed....

Sorry to get off topic... back on track now!


~ James

 

[ntsqd]

I'm not convinced that the Torflex's are bad choice for off road. We have data for how they perform w/o shocks, but all that we have is the known trips and trails that my trailer has been on prior to my ownership and during my ownership for how they perform with shocks. That scanty data rebukes any attempt to predict the with shocks expectation based on the w/o data. We just don't know, but given the multiple Baja trips (routes unknown but the owner was known for exploring the coast looking for the unknown surfing/wave-skiing breaks) and it's trip to Copper Canyon plus various other U.S. trips, all without any trouble, at the very minimum hints that adding shocks is the necessary mod.
I've long looked at that trailer and wished for a trip log. I think that it would tell us a lot. With Rod's passing and his widow's move to places unknown (assuming that she will even still talk to me) there isn't much chance of ever finding out.

 

[Rbertalotto]

I've built dozens of trailers with Torflex axles. Never had one fail. Not one. And some of those trailers have been to hell and back. I'm sure if you were pulling them THROUGH the Baja 1000 race, they might fail. But your kidneys and most of the tow vehicle will be gone long before the axles.

The main advantage to torflex axles is independent suspension and built in shock absorbsion. 99.9% of all hores trailers are using Torflex type axles as they lessen the stress on the horses legs, especially the "side to side" movement the article refers to with a solid axle.

And for off road use you gain huge ground clearance. Without the chance of snagging the axle and bending it, causing huge toe in problems.

I use the individual units as this allows the most ground clearance for an off road trailer.

 

[ert01]

I am currently running Dexter 3500 solid axle and Jeep 5 spoke rims. I had to hog out the inside hole larger. I used a hole saw for the rough cut and then a rotary highspeed with an aluminum bit n it for the finishing. It actually worked incredibly well and looks very clean. I had the tires rechecked for balance after that and they barely changed at all.

 

[Martyn]

I'm not convinced that the Torflex's are bad choice for off road. We have data for how they perform w/o shocks, but all that we have is the known trips and trails that my trailer has been on prior to my ownership and during my ownership for how they perform with shocks. That scanty data rebukes any attempt to predict the with shocks expectation based on the w/o data. We just don't know, but given the multiple Baja trips (routes unknown but the owner was known for exploring the coast looking for the unknown surfing/wave-skiing breaks) and it's trip to Copper Canyon plus various other U.S. trips, all without any trouble, at the very minimum hints that adding shocks is the necessary mod.
I've long looked at that trailer and wished for a trip log. I think that it would tell us a lot. With Rod's passing and his widow's move to places unknown (assuming that she will even still talk to me) there isn't much chance of ever finding out.

Two complete failures, one of them on both sides of the axle.

Spoke with an Australian military mechanic who worked on the armored cars
fitted with torsion axles, numerous failures.

Read blogs of Germans traveling in the Sahara, axle failures.

They were briefly introduced on trailers in South Africa, failures on trailers in Kalahari almost destroyed the reputation of a couple of the bigger trailer companies.

After working with Dexter on our failures we were told by their engineers that Torsion Flex axles were no longer recommended for off road use by the company. That was four or five years ago, may be something has changed, but I don't think anything has changed with the design.

 

[Rbertalotto]

I wonder if all these failures are heat related. Maybe when those little rubber balls get real hot, they lose their elasticity? I could see that happening.
Up here in New England, it never gets that hot like it would in desert travel or the outback of Australia.
And I always use axles quite a bit over rated for the load. Unlike a conventional spring suspension, I don't find the trailers bouncing around much when lightly loaded.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Absolutely it could be heat related. There are no rubber balls, those are cords, but yeah.... The rubber will generate it's own heat as it gets worked. The higher the ambient temps, the higher the resultant temp in the rubber will be. Hot rubber will definitely start breaking down. Shocks should help to lower the heat as well.

 

[ntsqd]

Two complete failures, one of them on both sides of the axle.

Spoke with an Australian military mechanic who worked on the armored cars
fitted with torsion axles, numerous failures.

Read blogs of Germans traveling in the Sahara, axle failures.

They were briefly introduced on trailers in South Africa, failures on trailers in Kalahari almost destroyed the reputation of a couple of the bigger trailer companies.

After working with Dexter on our failures we were told by their engineers that Torsion Flex axles were no longer recommended for off road use by the company. That was four or five years ago, may be something has changed, but I don't think anything has changed with the design.

As I said, lots of data about how they perform without shocks, but very little data about how they perform with shocks.

As best as I can figure, what holds the arm in place is that it is vulcanized to the rubber, which is also vulcanized to the housing. Put enough heat into the rubber and the vulcanizing will fail. Then the trailing arm can work it's way out of the housing. Remove or reduce the heat below the failure temperature and the problem goes away. Maybe that's not possible, but my observation is that so far it is possible and the shocks do the promised job of removing heat.

 

[Martyn]

They take rods of rubber, dip them in nitrogen to solidify and contract them, and then insert them into the axle beam.

Heat is a big issue, and the slowness of the drop arm to react to changes in terrain starts a bouncing that produces some of the heat. The other major fact for off-road usage is the drop arm and main beam does not have a seal. Sand and other foreign matter can enter the beam and increase the amount of friction and wear.