Diesel Wrangler in 2010!

[ox4mag]

I wrote a response note on the subject of a diesel in the Wrangler about a week ago in another post and from what we've heard internally, the diesel option isn't going to be in a U.S. Wrangler. But the source I spoke to did note that there is evidence of significant interest here but could not confirm any change or addition to this plan.

So while we're all hopeful (at least some of us are) that this engine platform will be here in Q4 2010, I would suggest cautious optimism.

 

[JDaPP]

Wait, didn't they introduce a diesel liberty a few years ago that flopped?

Actually I have one of the diesel libertys and I love it. I would say almost all of the problems are DaimlerChrysler and Govt induced and would be first in line to get a Jeep Wrangler diesel

 

[LilKJ]

Poor timing on the diesel KJ's... they came out and the following year EPA laws changed regarding diesels and no longer made it worthwile to proiduce them. Laaaaaaaame.... the VM is an awesome motor...:smiley_drive:

From Motor Trend Article:

"Less than a week after announcing plans to offer the first diesel-powered full-size sport utility vehicle in the United States, DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group said it is halting production of the diesel version of its small Jeep Liberty SUV. The Liberty's diesel engine doesn't meet tougher federal emissions standards taking effect next year, and Chrysler said it wasn't cost-effective to replace it with a newer version."

The only way I see another CRD coming to the US would be if Fiat or some other partner company happens to have a diesel lying around that will pass our emission standards... I doubt they'll be willing to develop something new though.

 

[bugnout]

Originally Posted by ryguy

Wait, didn't they introduce a diesel liberty a few years ago that flopped?

Actually I have one of the diesel libertys and I love it. I would say almost all of the problems are DaimlerChrysler and Govt induced and would be first in line to get a Jeep Wrangler diesel

I too own a Diesel Liberty and absolutely love it. I would definitely buy a Diesel Wrangler. Would love it if it came with the 3.0 liter Cummins that has been rumored, but I'd definitely buy another VM based vehicle.

My liberty is a blast to drive and will go just about anywhere.

 

[78Bronco]

Are they going to put a real transmission behind the 2.8crd or just another piece of junk. A bloke I knew had a liberty and it ate transmissions for breakfast and same can be heard about the fullsize transmissions behind the Cummins. Something about Chrysler and transmission I do not trust.

I would prefer if Chrysler would exploit the 3.0L Bluetec (Daimler Benz) from the grand into the wrangler. Bluetec is clean, meets emmisions and is very economical to run making it even more attractive to the public.:smiley_drive:

 

[ryguy]

I worked next to a chrysler/jeep dealership and knew many of the salesmen. They just didn't sell, the ones they initially got in sat there for months. I wasn't trying to be ignorant, just relaying past experience. I love the idea of a diesel in a compact suv, I just don't think there is much of a market in the US right now IMHO

 

[wcdu]

I would have bought a diesel Liberty. I just wasn't fast enough. I know of at least 5 people on another list (API) that have often said that we would buy a diesel wrangler. I like Chrylser and Mercedes much better than anything Fiat or for that matter Italian automotive. I am old enough to remember.

My PH friend in Africa uses a Perkins diesel in his Land Cruiser and it is magic. My guides in New Zealand and Austrailia both had diesels. The one in NZ was a 4 runner. I had a fleet of vehicles to deal with in Iraq. For all of my questions, the answer is diesel.

Anyone out there have experience with putting a diesel in a wrangler ?

Steve

 

[haven]

Re: "the liberty diesel was an expensive flop"

Jeep handled way too many warranty claims for emissions control
equipment (mostly EGR related) and transmission failures. The
latter was addressed by reflashing the ECU to reduce torque, not
the kind of fix owners were pleased with. Dealers often had difficulty
getting the parts needed to fix problems, so it was not uncommon
for a vehicle to sit at the dealership for weeks before repairs were
complete. Not the results Chrysler wanted from a run of about
20,000 vehicles.

Just as an aside, Jeep spent a lot of money training dealership
staff to take care of the Liberty CRD, and then canceled the vehicle
after two years. The reason given was the cost to meet new emissions
regulations. But didn't Chrysler know the CRD wouldn't meet the new
regs years before the CRD was approved for production?

My guess is that the Liberty CRD caused so many headaches for Jeep
that they just used the emissions issue as an excuse to bail out.

New direct injection and valvetrain technology makes a gasoline
engine almost as fuel efficient and powerful as a diesel. The technology
to make a gas engine meet emissions standards is well understood,
while diesel emissions controls are in their infancy. And a diesel fuel
price spike could kill sales overnight. For these reasons, I think USA
manufacturers are unlikely to use a diesel engine in a Jeep-like vehicle
anytime soon. Diesels will be limited to trucks designed to tow a trailer.

Chip Haven

 

[cocco78]

There should have been a diesel in the Wrangler years ago! But I don't think I'd want a new diesel anymore, they are so overly complicated and burried with emissions equipment that they are just not worth it any more. All the 2007.5 and newer diesels that i've dealt with have just been nightmares with constant emissions related problems. I drive an 08 Dodge 2500 with the 6.7L Cummins as a work truck and its a beast of a truck, but it gets poor mileage, and constantly in for repairs for emissions equipment.... Plus if they dropped a diesel in a wrangler who is going to pay $40k for a damn Jeep?

 

[haven]

I agree, with the new emissions controls, today's diesels are quite
complicated. It's like having a miniature chemical factory under the
floorboards. Add in the electronics used to monitor the emissions
control gear, and you've got a complex system that requires
sophisticated test equipment to diagnose and fix.

Diesel used to be the choice for overland vehicles because the engines
were dead simple and reliable. I think it will be a while before we can
give the new diesels the same level of trust.

 

[charlieaarons]

I agree, with the new emissions controls, today's diesels are quite
complicated. It's like having a miniature chemical factory under the
floorboards. Add in the electronics used to monitor the emissions
control gear, and you've got a complex system that require sophisticated test equipment to diagnose and fix.

Diesel used to be the choice for overland vehicles because the engines
were dead simple and reliable. I think it will be a while before we can
give the new diesels the same level of trust.

IMHO the problem with modern diesels is a 3 letter word: EGR. It isn't coincidence that in the last year Cummins and Mack/Volvo have followed Daimler/Detroit Diesel to the SCR/urea/light EGR fold. Only Navistar/MAN remain in the nonurea heavy EGR camp for 2010. On Detroit Diesel's official site, they claim "power and economy will be back for 2010 with urea/SCR". That's a tacit admission that EGR has been a flop.
In Europe, truck diesels with electronic controls and urea/SCR downstream of the engine report good reliability and excellent economy and are capable of high power densities. OTOH 2007 diesels in the US have problems with broken EGR coolers, turbo soot-up, and worsening mileage - all due to "heavy" EGR which is not seen in Europe. Partially due to tighter NOx regs in the US, and partly due to perceived consumer resistance to urea.
But the mfgs have given in to urea and I believe things will improve as a result.
I predict: Navistar 2010 engines will be big trouble.
The electronics seem reliable, that has been sorted out years ago.
The EGR system on my U500 seems to have "fallen off"; the only actual engine problem I have had was: a leaky EGR cooler!
One might object to urea for overseas travel. Note that DPF delete kits with electronic patches are already available for 2007 Big 3 pickup applications, as well as EGR delete kits. I have no doubt that delete kits will appear for SCR as well for common applications.
The most scary form of EGR is "in-cylinder EGR". The camshaft shuts the exhaust valve a bit early. Hard to delete that!
2013 Euro VI truck emissions are 33% tighter on particulates and 33% looser on NOx. We might see the same technology as the Europeans but it will be interesting to see if the Europeans will be forced to introduce a bit of EGR in Euro VI engines.
Many Euro IV European engines have only urea/SCR. They tune the engine for high NOx and low particulates and good power and economy with advanced timing and injection tuning (a benefit of electronics). Then they use the NOx to burn the paticulates in the front part of the converter called an "oxi-kat". NOx makes particulates burn at 250 C. instead of 600 C. Then, they use the urea to get rid of the remaining NOx.
EPA regs are consistently tighter on NOx and looser on particulates than European.
People in Europe complain about rules coming out of Brussels. For diesels, I'll take European regs any time over EPA.

Charlie

 

[Alexlebrit]

Out of interest in the OP are those figures for Chrysler-Fiat USA or the whole worldwide Chrysler-Fiat group? Given that diesels are already popular in Europe and being seen in ever more variations over here, if those figures are for worldwide production then it's not a huge shift.

Oh and an aside for everyone on the Jeep Panda thread (I almost resurrected it but it's sooo old), a new Panda is due out in 2011 which is likely to be larger than the current model. The plan is to use a shortened version of a new Fiat platform, so a new Jeep could easily be based on the same platform (maybe the full length) and it'll look nothing like the existing Panda (sadly).

 

[Redline]

You guys are spot on. I am (was?) a huge light-duty diesel fan, owning 3 diesel pickups, a Mercedes 300SD, and a VW Golf TDI over the past 17-years. As Charlie said, EGR is a big part of the problem, and our VW TDI has it. But I beleive the particulate traps and the required 'burn off' is a huge negative as currently implemented. Particulate burn off uses/wastes fuel and maybe worse than a cat converter, it is a fire-starter under a 4x4.

New tech Diesels are not simple, but some gas engines are in comparison. Where turbo power, simplicity, reliability, and economy & range used to be huge advantages for diesel 4x4s, I think we are wise to think critically about how many of these percieved advantages still exist compared to our very well evolved gas engine technology.

We went years with only one gas-powered vehicle in our garage, a motorcycle. That has changed.

I agree, with the new emissions controls, today's diesels are quite
complicated. It's like having a miniature chemical factory under the
floorboards. Add in the electronics used to monitor the emissions
control gear, and you've got a complex system that requires
sophisticated test equipment to diagnose and fix.

Diesel used to be the choice for overland vehicles because the engines
were dead simple and reliable. I think it will be a while before we can
give the new diesels the same level of trust.

 

[Brad Kilby]

This is official Chrysler-Fiat press release. It isn't a "maybe", this is their plan! Pretty darn cool.

This comment is not to single out Life_in_4Lo at all and I do apologize if it comes out this way.

There has been a lot of rumor running around, but Chrysler IS NOT coming out with a USA model diesel in the JK's. Period. It's all false information. The only diesel coming out will be for EXPORT ONLY and not within the USA. This comes from first hand information within Chrysler itself. Sorry, I wish it were true but it's not. Please don't get your hopes up!

Brad

 

[jingram]

Interesting talk about how complex modern diesels have become, but let's not forget how complex gasoline motors have become as well with variable valve timing, direct injection, multiple 02 sensors and cats not to mention that EGR is just as heavily used on the gasoline side of things. No matter which way you look at it, in the name of efficiency engines are getting more complex with a very strong dependence on electronics, be the sensors, or the CPU/BUS driving things.

I am still excited about seeing diesels stateside and would evaluate that option heavily upon my next purchase of a vehicle. As far as those stating the the Liberty CRD did poorly, I seem to recall that it had more than doubled sales expectations and Chrysler had one hell of a time keeping up on production of them. Perhaps select markets had some sitting on lots, but I wouldn't consider that indicative of the market as a whole.

Finally, I guess we all have to take a wait and see approach about the JK getting a Diesel, as reports really are all over the place with Allpar, Autoblog, etc. reporting that one will hit both markets. I know I would be one of the first in line...

Jack