DIY Portable Power Pack (aka solar generator) vs. Commercial off-the-shelf options

Rando

Explorer
If you note the the plots of charge voltage vs capacity on the powerstream page:
https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm
There is essentially no additional benefit to beyond 3.4V per cell (3.4V gives 99% of the capacity relative to > 3.65V). Going much above 13.6V (4x3.4V) may shorten battery life, and certainly drives series cells out of balance more rapidly than stopping at ~13.6V. The other benefit to this is that most alternators will get to 13.6, so you don't need a boosting charge controller. I would also consider the Victron MPPT 75/15 over the genasun as it is both cheaper and adjustable for what ever charge voltage you decide on.
 

JJBiggs

Supporting Sponsor | SEES
If you note the the plots of charge voltage vs capacity on the powerstream page:
https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm
There is essentially no additional benefit to beyond 3.4V per cell (3.4V gives 99% of the capacity relative to > 3.65V). Going much above 13.6V (4x3.4V) may shorten battery life, and certainly drives series cells out of balance more rapidly than stopping at ~13.6V. The other benefit to this is that most alternators will get to 13.6, so you don't need a boosting charge controller. I would also consider the Victron MPPT 75/15 over the genasun as it is both cheaper and adjustable for what ever charge voltage you decide on.

Interesting. Ironically, some of the info I came across mentioned the opposite...that a lower voltage is fine, but it will shorten the life of the LiFePo4 cells. Can you post up any reading to your point? I'd be very interested in reading it. If I don't need the booster, it would simplify the system even more.

FWIW - When I first got started, this thread peaked my interest in these batteries:

https://expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/arb-fridge-with-lifepo4-in-a-dual-battery-setup.110727/

This is the battery I chose to go with:

https://www.fuelzero.com/FuelZero-12v-50AH-Deep-Cycle-LIFEPO4-Battery-p/fz-12-50-lifepo4.htm

C
 
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Rando

Explorer
I don't really have any solid evidence that higher charge voltages will shorten the cycle life, but it will effect cell balance for sure. The issue with cell balance is obvious from the charge curve - as the cells reach > 95% SOC then voltage becomes a strong function of SOC, so small differences in SOC can lead to large cell imbalances. If you stay away from the 'knees' at both ends of the charge curve (keep your cells between 10 - 90% SOC) then the SOC to V curve is very flat and you don't induce imbalances. Your BMS can correct cell imbalance, but this wastes time and energy and the battery is not operating at peak performance between balances. This has been my experience with my LiFePO4 house battery, initially I tried charging up to 3.6V / cell and noticed they drifted out of balance fairly quickly, so I dropped the voltage down to 3.4V per cell and they have stayed in balance for months.

The other key point here is that if possible you shouldn't store your cells fully charged - it shortens calendar lifetime: http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/163/9/A1872.full

Also are you sure your Genasun is actually a boosting charge controller? A boost/buck architecture would be a pretty unusual and special feature, and I am surprised they don't explicitly state that it boosts - they do for some of their other controllers.
 

john61ct

Adventurer
Here's my "boilerplate" LFP summary, mostly from marine electrics discussion forums involving long-term users and professionals, with special thanks to Maine Sail (see below).

Any and all feedback is welcome, especially if more "canonical" information from the links cited conflict with my summary.

______
Systems: OceanPlanet (Lithionics), Victron, MasterVolt, Redarc (Oz specific?)

Bare cells: Winston/Voltronix, CALB, GBS, A123 & Sinopoly

Best to size your cells for two parallel strings for redundancy, unless you have a separate reserve/backup bank. Don't go past three, or you may see balancing issues that affect long-term longevity, maybe four in a pinch.

Note nearly **every** vendor, also those of ancillary hardware touted as "LFP ready", gives charging voltages **way too high** for longevity.

My (conspiracy) theory is that manufacturers would prefer their cells get burned out in under 10 years.

EV usage is very different from much gentler House bank cycling. Most EV people talking "lithium-ion" mean other chemistries not as safe as LFP, much shorter lifetimes, and with completely different setpoints and behaviors.

My charge settings for LFP: 3.45Vpc, which = 13.8V max for 4S "12V".

The point is to look at the SoC vs Voltage chart, and avoid the "shoulders" at both ends, stay in the smooth parts of the curve.

Either "just stop" charging when voltage is hit, or if you want another couple % SoC capacity, stop when trailing amps **at your spec'd voltage** hits endAmps of .02C, or 2A per 100AH.*

Note even at the "low" max charge voltage, letting the charge source continue to "push" even low currents long past the endAmps point is **over-charging, and will** greatly reduce lifecycles.

So if you can't then "just stop", set Float well below resting Full voltage, at say 13.1V, but that is a compromise, and *may* shorten life cycles.

With LFP, you don't need to fill up all the way at all, as far as the cells are concerned. In fact, it is bad for them to sit there more than a few minutes. Therefore only "fill up" if consumer loads are present, ready to start discharging, ideally right away.

Many sources claim there is a "memory effect" from keeping charge voltage and ending point exactly the same every time lower than manufacturer specs, that can apparently over time lead to apparent lower capacity. The recommended fix is to "go higher, into the shoulder" every so often, similar to "conditioning" a FLA bank monthly. To prevent the issue, vary your setpoints a bit, sometimes go a point or two higher or lower, vary Absorb time a bit etc. There is no consensus just how serious the problem is.

Store the bank as cool as possible and at 10-20% SoC, or maybe higher to compensate for self-discharge, if not getting topped up regularly (I would at least monthly).*

Letting the batts go "dead flat" = instant **permanent unrecoverable** damage.

Same with charging in below 32°F / 0°C freezing temps.

Persistent high temps also drastically shortens life.

Charging at 1C or even higher is no problem, as long as your wiring is that robust, vendors may spec lower out of legal caution.

Again, going above 14V won't add much AH capacity, but will shorten life cycles dramatically.

And of course, we're talking about gentle "partial C" House bank discharge rates, size appropriately and be careful feeding heavy loads like a winch or windlass.

Following these tips, letting the BMS do active balancing is unnecessary and potentially harmful, just look for LVD / OVD and temp protection. Multiple layers of protection are advised if it is a very expensive bank, so you don't rely on any one device to keep working.

Check cell-level voltage balance say monthly to start, then quarterly, finally every six months if there are no imbalance issues, but only if that seems safe to you.

This thread is long but informative
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/...65069.html

, make sure to give both Maine Sail and Ocean Planet your close attention.

Also MS' summary notes here
https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

**Everything** at that site is worth reading, very valuable. He also has great articles in Practical Sailor. His new site under development transitioning the pbase content is here

https://marinehowto.com/support, feel free to make a donation to help with those expenses.

Best of luck, and do please report back here!
 

john61ct

Adventurer
I highly recommend a LiFePo4 battery that has an onboard BMS. The BMS will monitor and equalize the cells. In addition, it will cutoff the charge and discharge to maintain the cells integrity.
Maybe you mean 12V so-called "drop-in" style?

I prefer working with the big prismatic 3.2V cells.

These are the basis for the super-expensive packaged systems that include a BMS, but those are very expensive and often overly complex.

With any BMS make sure you have some place for charging current to go if/when it isolates the cells, easy to fry alt diodes or sensitive electronics otherwise.
 

JJBiggs

Supporting Sponsor | SEES
Also are you sure your Genasun is actually a boosting charge controller? A boost/buck architecture would be a pretty unusual and special feature, and I am surprised they don't explicitly state that it boosts - they do for some of their other controllers.

No, no...I have a boost converter that is pushing into the Genasun charge controller and then into the battery. I got the idea via this thread:

https://expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/arb-fridge-with-lifepo4-in-a-dual-battery-setup.110727/
 

JJBiggs

Supporting Sponsor | SEES
Here's my "boilerplate" LFP summary, mostly from marine electrics discussion forums involving long-term users and professionals, with special thanks to Maine Sail (see below).

Any and all feedback is welcome, especially if more "canonical" information from the links cited conflict with my summary.

______
Systems: OceanPlanet (Lithionics), Victron, MasterVolt, Redarc (Oz specific?)

Bare cells: Winston/Voltronix, CALB, GBS, A123 & Sinopoly

Best to size your cells for two parallel strings for redundancy, unless you have a separate reserve/backup bank. Don't go past three, or you may see balancing issues that affect long-term longevity, maybe four in a pinch.

Note nearly **every** vendor, also those of ancillary hardware touted as "LFP ready", gives charging voltages **way too high** for longevity.

My (conspiracy) theory is that manufacturers would prefer their cells get burned out in under 10 years.

EV usage is very different from much gentler House bank cycling. Most EV people talking "lithium-ion" mean other chemistries not as safe as LFP, much shorter lifetimes, and with completely different setpoints and behaviors.

My charge settings for LFP: 3.45Vpc, which = 13.8V max for 4S "12V".

The point is to look at the SoC vs Voltage chart, and avoid the "shoulders" at both ends, stay in the smooth parts of the curve.

Either "just stop" charging when voltage is hit, or if you want another couple % SoC capacity, stop when trailing amps **at your spec'd voltage** hits endAmps of .02C, or 2A per 100AH.*

Note even at the "low" max charge voltage, letting the charge source continue to "push" even low currents long past the endAmps point is **over-charging, and will** greatly reduce lifecycles.

So if you can't then "just stop", set Float well below resting Full voltage, at say 13.1V, but that is a compromise, and *may* shorten life cycles.

With LFP, you don't need to fill up all the way at all, as far as the cells are concerned. In fact, it is bad for them to sit there more than a few minutes. Therefore only "fill up" if consumer loads are present, ready to start discharging, ideally right away.

Many sources claim there is a "memory effect" from keeping charge voltage and ending point exactly the same every time lower than manufacturer specs, that can apparently over time lead to apparent lower capacity. The recommended fix is to "go higher, into the shoulder" every so often, similar to "conditioning" a FLA bank monthly. To prevent the issue, vary your setpoints a bit, sometimes go a point or two higher or lower, vary Absorb time a bit etc. There is no consensus just how serious the problem is.

Store the bank as cool as possible and at 10-20% SoC, or maybe higher to compensate for self-discharge, if not getting topped up regularly (I would at least monthly).*

Letting the batts go "dead flat" = instant **permanent unrecoverable** damage.

Same with charging in below 32°F / 0°C freezing temps.

Persistent high temps also drastically shortens life.

Charging at 1C or even higher is no problem, as long as your wiring is that robust, vendors may spec lower out of legal caution.

Again, going above 14V won't add much AH capacity, but will shorten life cycles dramatically.

And of course, we're talking about gentle "partial C" House bank discharge rates, size appropriately and be careful feeding heavy loads like a winch or windlass.

Following these tips, letting the BMS do active balancing is unnecessary and potentially harmful, just look for LVD / OVD and temp protection. Multiple layers of protection are advised if it is a very expensive bank, so you don't rely on any one device to keep working.

Check cell-level voltage balance say monthly to start, then quarterly, finally every six months if there are no imbalance issues, but only if that seems safe to you.

This thread is long but informative
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/...65069.html

, make sure to give both Maine Sail and Ocean Planet your close attention.

Also MS' summary notes here
https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

**Everything** at that site is worth reading, very valuable. He also has great articles in Practical Sailor. His new site under development transitioning the pbase content is here

https://marinehowto.com/support, feel free to make a donation to help with those expenses.

Best of luck, and do please report back here!


Awesome info. Thank you. I will read and continue reading. The battery I purchased is the following:

http://www.fuelzero.com/FuelZero-12v-50AH-Deep-Cycle-LIFEPO4-Battery-p/fz-12-50-lifepo4.htm

http://www.ewtbattery.com/en/products-show-1026.html

I guess you could consider this a "drop-in" LFP battery. I am happy to report that so far, the one in my trailer has performed very, very well. Thankfully.
Reading a bit into the MarineHowto site has peaked my curiosity even more. I will be reading tonight for sure.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

JJBiggs

Supporting Sponsor | SEES
To all who have responded - thank you. The information that has been relayed is fantastic. Since I did my last research, much of the information has been (ironically) removed and/or replaced. I am very curious to learn more about the batteries I have been using. What I have learned - these were designed to work with solar systems. (this would be some of the information that was not available last year).

The Gent on Marinehowto.com makes a lot of sense and I will cautiously continue working with the batteries I have. I would like to see what can be done with these.

Thanks Gents. Have a great evening.

C
 

JJBiggs

Supporting Sponsor | SEES
The good news - my Genasun charge controller's charge setting is at 14.2v. Which is a lot better than 14.6v.

C
 

john61ct

Adventurer
The ideal - and very common for solar MPPT these days - is full user adjustability, not just choosing from a list of canned profiles.

The ability to "just stop", no Float charge is still quite rare, but staying under 13.2V is a decent compromise.
 

JJBiggs

Supporting Sponsor | SEES
The ideal - and very common for solar MPPT these days - is full user adjustability, not just choosing from a list of canned profiles.

The ability to "just stop", no Float charge is still quite rare, but staying under 13.2V is a decent compromise.

Supposedly, you can call up Genasun and they will custom configure the controller and then ship. Even with all the literature I read on this particular controller, nowhere did it mention that I could call them to configure it.

This whole LiFePo4 scenario out there is bizarre. Seems like some are treating it as the end-all-be-all battery solution while others are somewhat addressing it.

C
 

Ps23Rick

New member
I know that I'm coming in a bit late on this thread.. Id like to make one of these but have a few questions and am far from a LiFePo4 expert.. Here's what I'm thinking and this will be used to primarily run an ARB 63qt fridge for at least 2-3 days and be able to charge the occasional USB device (phone, etc) and optionally I might be interested in having an inverter in the mix -- pure sinewave but not too big -- perhaps 1000-1500 watt tops.

  • Battle Born 100ah (model #BB10012)
  • Sterling 30A DC to DC charger (model #BB1230) to charge from the vehicle battery when driving down the road
  • Victron BMV-712 (battery monitor w/ Bluetooth) OR Sterling Remote control/Display (model #BBURC)
  • Battery isolation manager (LiBIM225) -- not sure if this is really needed -- seems like I probably do not

At some point it might be nice to add a solar charge capability -- which seems to me would negate the need for the Sterling as they're both tackling the same thing -- to charge the battery but from different sources. For now I'll focus on only 12V charging. I know that there are a bunch of small items I'll need that are not included here -- I just wanted to tackle the big fish in the room. Is this list more or less ok?

I would like to follow suit and install all of this in a Seahorse case as shown in the above pics if all this stuff will fit and assuming no heat related issues with the Sterling...

The only thing I do not like about the Sterling is the size.. My alternative would be the Genasun GV10 if I could figure out the way to isolate the vehicle battery from the LiFePo4.. Did anyone come up with a suitable way to do this?

Any other issues anyone sees would be greatly appreciated!!

Thx!
 

john61ct

Adventurer
The Sterling acts as a "front end" to filter **any** approximate 12V DC charge source, make it optimal for the target bank.

Vehicle alternators famously do not deliver precise control.

But even some solar controllers setpoints, and many mains chargers, are also not user adjustable.

So I would put the Sterling and batts in one enclosure, allowing the bank to be charged from whatever source.
 

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