Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
Simple explanation. Bear spray works...on bears...because they have an olfactory system that is hundreds of times more sensitive than that of the pit bull you sprayed. Simple as that.
Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping
- Thread starter Expedition Key
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EdwardBernal
Adventurer
I'm a "gun guy" and usually have a pistol with me when legal to possess. I often see these gun vs. bear spray discussions
occasion but one very issue that I've thought of but never brought up until now is this: How do you know if the spray can
will actually work when smoky is charging you? Has the can's propellant somehow leaked out or has the nozzle been damaged
somehow? Has it "expired" in some fashion? Admittedly I know little about these canisters so I can't speak from experience
but that's A question I've not seen discussed on any of the bear spray threads I've read.
I do know this: I can certainly use the firearm that I pack extensively to test it's function. It can carry multiple rounds so if
the first cartridge fails, I can pull the trigger again on a fresh one if its a revolver or quickly cycle the action on a semi to eject
the dud and fire the next one. Thankfully I have never had a situation where I've needed a gun for defense of any sort but
lord knows they have provided many hours of fun while camping out in the wilderness. A few 22s usually make the trip to shoot
cans, spinning targets, etc... On more than one occasion when my son's friends and Dads come along with us, blasting away
at various targets are one of the favorite parts of the trip
occasion but one very issue that I've thought of but never brought up until now is this: How do you know if the spray can
will actually work when smoky is charging you? Has the can's propellant somehow leaked out or has the nozzle been damaged
somehow? Has it "expired" in some fashion? Admittedly I know little about these canisters so I can't speak from experience
but that's A question I've not seen discussed on any of the bear spray threads I've read.
I do know this: I can certainly use the firearm that I pack extensively to test it's function. It can carry multiple rounds so if
the first cartridge fails, I can pull the trigger again on a fresh one if its a revolver or quickly cycle the action on a semi to eject
the dud and fire the next one. Thankfully I have never had a situation where I've needed a gun for defense of any sort but
lord knows they have provided many hours of fun while camping out in the wilderness. A few 22s usually make the trip to shoot
cans, spinning targets, etc... On more than one occasion when my son's friends and Dads come along with us, blasting away
at various targets are one of the favorite parts of the trip
J
JWP58
Guest
My question is "why wouldn't you carry a firearm while camping?".
Seriously, why not? If you can legally do so, why would you not want to be prepared to protect yourself, your loved ones, and your property?
Don't fear firearms, they are merely an object. Firearms are no different than a knife, a frying pan, chain, or baseball bat. All can induce pain, severe injury, or death.
Seriously, why not? If you can legally do so, why would you not want to be prepared to protect yourself, your loved ones, and your property?
Don't fear firearms, they are merely an object. Firearms are no different than a knife, a frying pan, chain, or baseball bat. All can induce pain, severe injury, or death.
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
I'll give you my honest answer. First, because I don't want to blow a hole in anyone, ever. First step in avoiding that scenario is to not carry a gun. Second step is to do my very best to always place myself in areas and situations where I'm less likely, even highly unlikely to have anything other than neutral or good interactions with those I encounter. Thus far, experience has shown that most of my interactions with others have been overwhelmingly positive. The rare chance of me having a negative encounter, one so bad it demands a lethal reaction...seems so minuscule I'm willing to chance it. I'll also not likely get chased by Bigfoot or abducted by aliens.
I don't fear the blender but don't feel a need to take one of those with me either.
Most importantly - I don't mid if you or anyone else pack heat. Everyone gets to choose, right?
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
I think Christophe nailed it! Carry if you want to, don't if you don't.
J
JWP58
Guest
Ya sure, whatever floats your boat I guess. I don't ever anticipate being in a roll over accident, however I wear my seatbelt.
I'd rather have and not need, than need and not have.
Just curious, but in regards to your opening statement.......
Would you rather die or watch a loved one die than use lethal force? (not trying to be rude, just trying to get some insight on the liberal mindset)
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
I don't want to answer for Christophe, but really? I like my guns, but have no problem with those that don't, as long as they leave me alone. Remember your right to carry is the same as his right to NOT carry.
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
I would caution you against assuming I have a liberal mindset just because of my one position on carrying a firearm. That's the sticky wicket that makes these discussions head banging exercises that bear no fruit.
With regard to insulating myself from violent encounters, I understand there is a genuine threat of violence in the world, but for where I travel, and what I do, my honest evaluation of the risks puts those scenarios so far out of my comprehension, I don't see the need to carry. With regard to your seatbelt example, that's a great statement. The chances of me being in a car accident? High. In 1996 my fiancé died in the car seat next to me when we were hit by a truck only five miles from our house in France. I didn't drive for two years after that. I believe in the likelihood of car accidents, and have been in two more since, none of my doing. 1.3 million people die of car accidents worldwide in just one year. The number of people violently attacked in the places I visit? That's probably not even a measurable statistic. Maybe one or two per hundreds of millions.
A good example of how I, like many, assess risk can be applied to places like the Arizona/Mexico border. It can be an unsafe place with a real possibility of a negative and dangerous encounter. I could go there, maybe with my wife, but even with a weapon, we'd both be placing ourselves in a potentially dangerous scenario...for what? A camping trip? Why not avoid the potentially bad scenario outright and visit the hundreds of other cool destinations that don't carry that portent of conflict? It's all about risk assessment.
I only participate in these discussions because the non-carrying populous is just as varied as the carrying populous in our reasonings why we do or don't carry. It's good for both sides to be heard and respected. I don't know where you live or travel and how likely violence plays into that setting. So, I can't judge you for your reasons to protect yourself. Now, if you live on the beach and wear an avalanche beacon just in case....
Everybody gets to decide for themselves. Because I don't carry, that should not imply that I have poor risk assessment, or that I think you shouldn't carry.
J
JWP58
Guest
Did I ever stated I had an issue with that fact that he does not carry a firearm? Or are you assuming I have some sort of problem??? I would venture to guess that you're assuming since (i'll answer my first question for you), I never once stated I had "a problem" with those that don't carry a firearm.
Apparently asking simple questions is frowned upon here, duly noted.
To Mr. Noel, I don't know how likely violence plays into any setting(including the settings I find myself). I don't have a crystal ball, nor can I read minds. But I do encounter people all the time that have things happen to them that "they never thought could/would happen". That's the strange thing about reality, when you least expect something....it happens.
Last edited:
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
I understand exactly what you mean. Everyone prepares for all types of threats in different ways. I recently saw a guy at a stoplight here in Prescott on a Harley with a gigantic hand canon on his hip. No helmet. Maybe he had the gun because he liked the weight of it and didn't have it for protection. Who knows. I didn't ask, or feel the need to apply an assumption. Not wearing a helmet...is a poor choice for obvious and statistical reasons.
I don't think you need a crystal ball to foresee all inherent dangers, nor do I think people chose to protect themselves from all dangers.
At the root of it, there's another talking point that often gets overlooked. Some people simply like having a gun. At the same time, others simply do not. It doesn't always have to imply some profound position on rights, threats, or intrinsic assertions about one's personality or disposition.
Beamer pilot
Explorer
They just went camping in one of the safest places in the world...[/
Ryan Cormier And Alexandra Zabjek, Postmedia News | March 19, 2014 | Last Updated: Jan 25 3:12 AM ET
More from Postmedia News
.
Marie Ann McCann, aged 77 and her husband Lyle Thomas McCann, aged 78,who were last seen on July 3, 2010 in St. Albert, AB. The RCMP released a photo of their burned out motor home which was found outside of Edson, Alberta on July 5, 2010.
RCMPMarie Ann McCann, aged 77 and her husband Lyle Thomas McCann, aged 78,who were last seen on July 3, 2010 in St. Albert, AB. The RCMP released a photo of their burned out motor home which was found outside of Edson, Alberta on July 5, 2010..
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Typo?
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The case against Travis Vader for the killings of missing St. Albert couple Lyle and Marie McCann crumbled Wednesday as Crown prosecutors stayed the murder charges because of new evidence brought forward by the RCMP.A stay of proceedings means the Crown has a year to bring the charges back to court, if they choose. However, this rarely happens.
“I’m not going to comment on exactly what evidence came and when it came to the prosecution service, but it was evidence we reasonably recently received from the RCMP and that’s what gave rise to the action that was taken today in court,” said Greg Lepp, assistant deputy minister of the Alberta Crown Prosecution Service.
Lepp would not comment on whether Vader is still a suspect in the case or if the new evidence pertains to another suspect.
I]
Ryan Cormier And Alexandra Zabjek, Postmedia News | March 19, 2014 | Last Updated: Jan 25 3:12 AM ET
More from Postmedia News
.
Marie Ann McCann, aged 77 and her husband Lyle Thomas McCann, aged 78,who were last seen on July 3, 2010 in St. Albert, AB. The RCMP released a photo of their burned out motor home which was found outside of Edson, Alberta on July 5, 2010.
RCMPMarie Ann McCann, aged 77 and her husband Lyle Thomas McCann, aged 78,who were last seen on July 3, 2010 in St. Albert, AB. The RCMP released a photo of their burned out motor home which was found outside of Edson, Alberta on July 5, 2010..
Google+
Typo?
More
.
The case against Travis Vader for the killings of missing St. Albert couple Lyle and Marie McCann crumbled Wednesday as Crown prosecutors stayed the murder charges because of new evidence brought forward by the RCMP.A stay of proceedings means the Crown has a year to bring the charges back to court, if they choose. However, this rarely happens.
“I’m not going to comment on exactly what evidence came and when it came to the prosecution service, but it was evidence we reasonably recently received from the RCMP and that’s what gave rise to the action that was taken today in court,” said Greg Lepp, assistant deputy minister of the Alberta Crown Prosecution Service.
Lepp would not comment on whether Vader is still a suspect in the case or if the new evidence pertains to another suspect.
I]
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
I understand what you're suggesting, Beemerpilot. Another example might be the horrible murder of the Japanese woman at the waterfalls at Havasupai in the Grand Canyon in 2006. Putting that in perspective, that one murder stands in contrast to more than 233 million visitations to the Grand Canyon. There was another murder at the GC, but at the hands of known assailant.
Beamer pilot
Explorer
Typical reaction, it only matters if it happens to you. The odds of winning any lottery are astronomical, someone collects every week...
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
Must of misunderstood you. Its easy to do on the internet. I made an assumption when you asked about liberal mindset. My apologies.
chet6.7
Explorer
People should have the right to choose whether to carry or not.I know there are some that would deny me the right to carry,through their vote, if they could,however,I do not want to deny them the right to choose not to carry.
I know some people are not capable of defending themselves,they will go fetal when they need to go feral,they will be unarmed even when they are armed.
It is not about the odds,it is about the stakes...a safe place is safe,until someone dangerous arrives.
Jeff Cooper said,
"Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."
"Remember the first rule of gunfighting ... have a gun."
I suspect we let our past experiences come into play in our decision making.
For me, an experience in my early 20's firmed up some of my beliefs.
I was dating a girl that did not want me to take a gun on our drive to a fairly remote part of the county,I made the choice of her over the gun.
We were sitting next to a small seasonal water hole when three guys showed up, they surrounded us,the vibe was hostile.
To this day, I believe to only thing that stopped an attack was ,partly, my intensity.I displayed the intensity I had learned in the martial arts,and working in a maximum security criminal warehouse.
After a tense couple of moments,one guy backed off and said let's go,the two other guy heisted for a few moments more,the apparent leader said let's go and they left.
We immediately started back to my truck,I asked her what do you think almost happened? She replied, I thought they were going to rape me,I replied,that is why I take a gun.
Sometime later is was dating another girl,we had just loaded up my shell for a camping trip and I started to put my revolver in the truck.She said what's that,I said a gun.She said if it goes I don't go.I explained the prior situation and she replied in an indignant manner,you would have shot them? She gave me the if it goes I don't go again,she ended up leaving in a huff...
I suspect this couple that they were in a safe place,it had been safe before,it was safe until these people showed up.I also suspect the reason the camper was burned was to cover up some elements of the crime.What was done to the couple was so bad the criminals wanted to cover it up.
Arizona fugitives charged with murder of Oklahoma couple
CNN) -- Two Arizona prison escapees and their alleged accomplice were charged Monday with murder in the deaths of an Oklahoma couple, authorities said. Federal prosecutors issued warrants for Arizona fugitives John Charles McCluskey, 45, and Tracy Allen Province, 42, and their suspected accomplice, Casslyn Mae Welch, 44.
All three are currently in custody in Arizona. McCluskey and Province broke out of prison there on July 30, allegedly with Welch's help,
The three are accused of killing Gary and Linda Haas, after carjacking the couple traveling in New Mexico on August 2. The complaint says McCluskey shot and killed the Haases in their travel trailer, after which he, Province and Welsh drove the couple's truck and trailer to a remote area in Guadalupe, New Mexico.
The three then unhitched the camper and burned it with the Hasses' remains still inside, said prosecutors. New Mexico police found the burned trailer on August 4.
If convicted, McCluskey, Province and Welch could receive life sentences or the death penalty, according to U.S. Attorney Kenneth Gonzales, who spoke at a news conference announcing the charges.
V
Welch, who was on the visitation list for one of the inmates, threw cutting tools over a prison fence to help the men escape, corrections officials have said.
Province was arrested in Wyoming in early August. McCluskey and Welch were arrested in Arizona last week, after a nationwide, multiple-agency manhunt. The search for McCluskey and Welch ranged from the Southwest to western Montana, and along the U.S. border with Canada.
McCluskey also faces charges of carjacking, kidnapping, escape in the second degree, armed robbery, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and misconduct involving weapons. Welch faces similar, but fewer charges.
According to Gonzales, the Haases, both 61, had recently retired.
They were traveling from their home in Tecumseh, Oklahoma, to Pagosa Springs, Colorado, where they had vacationed with family and friends for the past 11 summers, when they were killed, he said.
I know some people are not capable of defending themselves,they will go fetal when they need to go feral,they will be unarmed even when they are armed.
It is not about the odds,it is about the stakes...a safe place is safe,until someone dangerous arrives.
Jeff Cooper said,
"Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."
"Remember the first rule of gunfighting ... have a gun."
I suspect we let our past experiences come into play in our decision making.
For me, an experience in my early 20's firmed up some of my beliefs.
I was dating a girl that did not want me to take a gun on our drive to a fairly remote part of the county,I made the choice of her over the gun.
We were sitting next to a small seasonal water hole when three guys showed up, they surrounded us,the vibe was hostile.
To this day, I believe to only thing that stopped an attack was ,partly, my intensity.I displayed the intensity I had learned in the martial arts,and working in a maximum security criminal warehouse.
After a tense couple of moments,one guy backed off and said let's go,the two other guy heisted for a few moments more,the apparent leader said let's go and they left.
We immediately started back to my truck,I asked her what do you think almost happened? She replied, I thought they were going to rape me,I replied,that is why I take a gun.
Sometime later is was dating another girl,we had just loaded up my shell for a camping trip and I started to put my revolver in the truck.She said what's that,I said a gun.She said if it goes I don't go.I explained the prior situation and she replied in an indignant manner,you would have shot them? She gave me the if it goes I don't go again,she ended up leaving in a huff...
I suspect this couple that they were in a safe place,it had been safe before,it was safe until these people showed up.I also suspect the reason the camper was burned was to cover up some elements of the crime.What was done to the couple was so bad the criminals wanted to cover it up.
Arizona fugitives charged with murder of Oklahoma couple
CNN) -- Two Arizona prison escapees and their alleged accomplice were charged Monday with murder in the deaths of an Oklahoma couple, authorities said. Federal prosecutors issued warrants for Arizona fugitives John Charles McCluskey, 45, and Tracy Allen Province, 42, and their suspected accomplice, Casslyn Mae Welch, 44.
All three are currently in custody in Arizona. McCluskey and Province broke out of prison there on July 30, allegedly with Welch's help,
The three are accused of killing Gary and Linda Haas, after carjacking the couple traveling in New Mexico on August 2. The complaint says McCluskey shot and killed the Haases in their travel trailer, after which he, Province and Welsh drove the couple's truck and trailer to a remote area in Guadalupe, New Mexico.
The three then unhitched the camper and burned it with the Hasses' remains still inside, said prosecutors. New Mexico police found the burned trailer on August 4.
If convicted, McCluskey, Province and Welch could receive life sentences or the death penalty, according to U.S. Attorney Kenneth Gonzales, who spoke at a news conference announcing the charges.
Welch, who was on the visitation list for one of the inmates, threw cutting tools over a prison fence to help the men escape, corrections officials have said.
Province was arrested in Wyoming in early August. McCluskey and Welch were arrested in Arizona last week, after a nationwide, multiple-agency manhunt. The search for McCluskey and Welch ranged from the Southwest to western Montana, and along the U.S. border with Canada.
McCluskey also faces charges of carjacking, kidnapping, escape in the second degree, armed robbery, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and misconduct involving weapons. Welch faces similar, but fewer charges.
According to Gonzales, the Haases, both 61, had recently retired.
They were traveling from their home in Tecumseh, Oklahoma, to Pagosa Springs, Colorado, where they had vacationed with family and friends for the past 11 summers, when they were killed, he said.
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