SWITAWI
Doesn't Get Out Enough
Lol, I heard that!
DUAL Axle trailer
- Thread starter Dogmann
- Start date
Lol, I heard that!
When I was doing this, I spoke with a lot of guys from down under about their trailers and what type of obstacles they ran into normally. Washboard, water crossings, but really nothing what hard core trails are in our southwest. I pulled mine through carvacre and showed them a video of about 30 seconds of 2.5 hour out and back. Every single one said they would never find a trail like that nor would they tow through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpsy1161R8Q
There were 22 trucks on this run, and not a one thought the trailer would make it a mile, two owners of a major brand,, that stated they would never take their trailers on this trail. It made the whole trail, but did suffer a flat on the truck. This is what I built my trailers to do, I would not drag a tandem axle on it for any reason, and I have built trailer for a whole lot of my 68 years.
As Switawi says, it depends on what you are doing and your area I think. East coast trails that I have seen are narrower, tree lined, muddy, there for a little narrower trailer taller tires seem to be what I would want. Out here we have sharp rocks, drops twits, over hangs and a host of other things included.
Switawi, I got into another hobby, the wife hated the trailer camping. Marriotts are here idea of roughing it. She never wanted to go, and after 47 years you become kind of joined at the hip it seems. I could understand not wanting to go, but found I actually missed being around her. We were headed to the 2013 FJ Summitand she said she making reservations at the hotel. Was done staying in the tear drop, which I actually built for her. So I stopped building them, sold my personal one and bought a sports car. Now we go to rod runs, car cruises and National events for them. Still hit the FJ Summit every year, and absolutely still love the truck, but a happy wife is a happy life. Plus no deadlines to build something no one else builds and make a million changes before it is delivered. lol
I read these builds regularly though. Still for some reason people seem to think the front of the trailer is the place to put everything. I miss mine, but it is being drug all over the east coast and Missouri. Talk to all the owners still, and no structural failures, but man the TV's pop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpsy1161R8Q
There were 22 trucks on this run, and not a one thought the trailer would make it a mile, two owners of a major brand,, that stated they would never take their trailers on this trail. It made the whole trail, but did suffer a flat on the truck. This is what I built my trailers to do, I would not drag a tandem axle on it for any reason, and I have built trailer for a whole lot of my 68 years.
As Switawi says, it depends on what you are doing and your area I think. East coast trails that I have seen are narrower, tree lined, muddy, there for a little narrower trailer taller tires seem to be what I would want. Out here we have sharp rocks, drops twits, over hangs and a host of other things included.
Switawi, I got into another hobby, the wife hated the trailer camping. Marriotts are here idea of roughing it. She never wanted to go, and after 47 years you become kind of joined at the hip it seems. I could understand not wanting to go, but found I actually missed being around her. We were headed to the 2013 FJ Summitand she said she making reservations at the hotel. Was done staying in the tear drop, which I actually built for her. So I stopped building them, sold my personal one and bought a sports car. Now we go to rod runs, car cruises and National events for them. Still hit the FJ Summit every year, and absolutely still love the truck, but a happy wife is a happy life. Plus no deadlines to build something no one else builds and make a million changes before it is delivered. lol
I read these builds regularly though. Still for some reason people seem to think the front of the trailer is the place to put everything. I miss mine, but it is being drug all over the east coast and Missouri. Talk to all the owners still, and no structural failures, but man the TV's pop.
86scotty
Cynic
Thanks for all the input guys. A few considerations for my proposed build, which I certainly haven't decided on. We have a white box trailer I hate (25' POS, loses screws even while sitting). It doesn't go off road of course but I want to sell it and replace it with something I can take offroad that we can still stand and live in. Also, I have a Quigley Sportsmobile and have done the Colorado passes, all over Moab several times, all over the Sierras, the Lost coast of Norcal, Death Valley. Decent wheeling but nothing too hardcore. It is for sale and I also have an 05 Expedition that I hope to use for towing a trailer for awhile. I'm not talking about hardcore wheeling with this setup (Engineer Pass, Moab, Sierras) but basically just running fire roads, occasional mud and lighter water crossings to get to off grid campsites in the Southeast. My biggest obstacles with the SMB are low hanging trees/branches (I carry a chainsaw) and deep water breaks. If I like the way the Expedition tows this size trailer I may try it on a cross country trip. The idea behind this is to save some money for awhile before I build another uber-capable van (4x4 high top on 35"s). If you read my builds on the SMB forum (86scotty/Rusty build) you'll find that I really like building rigs and have always wanted to attempt a trailer. I know I can build a cargo trailer for probably 5k tops, and it will be nicer and better laid out for me than anything that I can find in the camping trailer world and far cheaper. What I'm wondering is if I will tear it to pieces.
My Expedition is a 5.4 sitting on 20 King Ranch wheels with Duratracs and it's pretty capable, though anyone who thinks of wheeling only in a Jeep wouldn't think so. I have plenty of towing power and can drag my 8'wide and 10' tall white box POS along at 80 mph all day. The Expeditions and other domestic full size SUVs are cheap and plentiful, so I'm thinking of trying a trailer and might be towing with something different sooner than later.
The tandem I was thinking of is 6x12 but built as a tandem not a single. Two 3500lb leaf sprung straight axles, not drops, which puts it 4" higher than the usual cargo trailer before wheels/tires. Total height will be about 8', only about 6" higher than my Expedition with roof rack. Inside will be 4 bunks, shower, full galley including Truckfridge, stove and residential sink. 50 gal or so of fresh water and a gray tank, 2 AGMs plus 200 watts of solar on the roof and window unit AC (somewhere) run by a Honda 2000 generator when needed. The only things on the roof will be solar and a roof vent. The trailer is 1800 pounds dry and I'm guessing 2500-3000 loaded. I know this a lot of weight but the Expedition is about 6k as it sits. Still a lot less than my 10k Sportsmobile which I've had in some tricky spots.
Anyway, sorry for the long post but I appreciate the input. I'll start my own thread here soon if I pursue this. I definitely haven't seen it done (except by the Gall boys) and I won't be wheeling like they do. I'll be parking somewhere and exploring in the truck alone, but I don't like organized campgrounds when I can avoid them.
My Expedition is a 5.4 sitting on 20 King Ranch wheels with Duratracs and it's pretty capable, though anyone who thinks of wheeling only in a Jeep wouldn't think so. I have plenty of towing power and can drag my 8'wide and 10' tall white box POS along at 80 mph all day. The Expeditions and other domestic full size SUVs are cheap and plentiful, so I'm thinking of trying a trailer and might be towing with something different sooner than later.
The tandem I was thinking of is 6x12 but built as a tandem not a single. Two 3500lb leaf sprung straight axles, not drops, which puts it 4" higher than the usual cargo trailer before wheels/tires. Total height will be about 8', only about 6" higher than my Expedition with roof rack. Inside will be 4 bunks, shower, full galley including Truckfridge, stove and residential sink. 50 gal or so of fresh water and a gray tank, 2 AGMs plus 200 watts of solar on the roof and window unit AC (somewhere) run by a Honda 2000 generator when needed. The only things on the roof will be solar and a roof vent. The trailer is 1800 pounds dry and I'm guessing 2500-3000 loaded. I know this a lot of weight but the Expedition is about 6k as it sits. Still a lot less than my 10k Sportsmobile which I've had in some tricky spots.
Anyway, sorry for the long post but I appreciate the input. I'll start my own thread here soon if I pursue this. I definitely haven't seen it done (except by the Gall boys) and I won't be wheeling like they do. I'll be parking somewhere and exploring in the truck alone, but I don't like organized campgrounds when I can avoid them.
OCD Overland
Explorer
Kimberley makes a tandem, which they'll export (but you're mostly on your own for support) - seems rugged, but surely not for trails like the one in the video. VMI's largest design is a tandem also, and I believe they will make their Alpine model a tandem if you want, but you'd have to check on that. Oliver has been talked about a lot here recently, but that's definitely soft road only though they seem far more durable than typical travel trailers. My wife and I will likely end up with one of those three, but then the traveling we'll be doing is in line with what they're built for. Plus a ton of highway miles.
Gall Boys videos are great, but they're advertising for Kedron which makes you wonder if any of their trailers has to last more than a single trip. Stout trailers though, to be sure - it would be nice to have someone like them or Kimberley here in the US.
For practical purposes, any trailer that's heavy enough to benefit from tandem axles is unlikely to be taken down those sorts of trails to begin with. Too heavy and too big, and both those will stop you long before the extra axle comes into play. And if the trailer isn't big and heavy enough to need tandems, then why do it, because the extra axle is only going to get in your way. Tandems are for stability and durability, at the cost of access - great for overlanding, not for serious off roading.
Gall Boys videos are great, but they're advertising for Kedron which makes you wonder if any of their trailers has to last more than a single trip. Stout trailers though, to be sure - it would be nice to have someone like them or Kimberley here in the US.
For practical purposes, any trailer that's heavy enough to benefit from tandem axles is unlikely to be taken down those sorts of trails to begin with. Too heavy and too big, and both those will stop you long before the extra axle comes into play. And if the trailer isn't big and heavy enough to need tandems, then why do it, because the extra axle is only going to get in your way. Tandems are for stability and durability, at the cost of access - great for overlanding, not for serious off roading.
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86scotty
Cynic
Thanks OCD. Your last sentence sums it up for me. This is not going to be a serious offroad trailer. I can easily purchase a 6x12 that is single axle, but I like the stability of a tandem, both for highway travel and for use as a stand up camper. Also, I'm thinking less tongue weight and less rear overhang. As noted earlier in this post I also like the idea of being able to limp out if I have a problem with one tire or axle. I'm not trying to sway anyone's vote here, I'm really still looking for objective advice. Some folks have said the tandems typically only have 1800lb axles but this builder uses two 3500's and the trailer has a 7k weight limit at just 1800 lbs. The builder says the frame is built much heavier than the single axle trailers, and they even offer thicker metal walls for a few hundred extra.
So for that trailer to work properly you are going to need a 5K payload. Dragging 7k off road is not an easy task.
As OCD states, overlanding is different than off road trails, normally first started by motor cycles, then grown to quad and jeep trails out here. Engineer Pass is a flat road with a couple of bumps, to me it does not qualify as off road. Top of the world, rose garden hill, those are off road trails, even Kokopelli with its overhangs.
Taking a tandem on a park road, for a base camp is fine I think. But with that you are limited to where and what you can do. You never realize limits until you are on the trail. For an off road trailer, my goal was, it must me able to go where the truck/jeep can go, if it can't it is a liability. Of course I am whole lot crazier about this stuff than most.
As OCD states, overlanding is different than off road trails, normally first started by motor cycles, then grown to quad and jeep trails out here. Engineer Pass is a flat road with a couple of bumps, to me it does not qualify as off road. Top of the world, rose garden hill, those are off road trails, even Kokopelli with its overhangs.
Taking a tandem on a park road, for a base camp is fine I think. But with that you are limited to where and what you can do. You never realize limits until you are on the trail. For an off road trailer, my goal was, it must me able to go where the truck/jeep can go, if it can't it is a liability. Of course I am whole lot crazier about this stuff than most.
SWITAWI
Doesn't Get Out Enough
Another thought worth mentioning is that the tandem axle trailers mentioned by OCD are at least 16ft in length and bigger. The VMI Compass is 16ft and I'm pretty sure the Kedron that the Gall Boys drag around is an 18-20ft model. Both the Oliver Legacy Elite II and the Kimberly Kruiser are over 20ft. To me that says that 16-20ft is potentially a big step up in size/weight/payload from 12ft and that is why those manufacturers chose to use two axles for those particular models, but not for their smaller offerings. Just another factor why two axles might be excessive for a 12ft trailer.
But once again, I'd love to see it if you decide to build it. :coffeedrink:
But once again, I'd love to see it if you decide to build it. :coffeedrink:
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86scotty
Cynic
Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming. This build is a few months out and I'm really torn.
Here's what I know:
I want rid of the 25" white box and I want to make do with a more versatile trailer. Obviously regular camping trailers don't go off pavement well at all.
I know we want stand up height, so that we can build in a few things we've always wanted, particularly a shower, kitchen and indoor seating for bad weather. The Sportsmobile has spoiled us on indoor living space.
I know I want this trailer to have an open floor plan in the back so it can be used for utility purposes at home. My Expedition is currently set up with one bunk and a rear door kitchen like many SUVs and has become worthless as a Home Depo/lumber hauler.
I know I don't plan to wheel with it anywhere close to where I would take my van or any of the Jeeps I've had. Part of the idea with an enclosed trailer is that it will be fairly secure parked places where I might want to drop the trailer and explore. An Ebola research sticker on the side or something should help with this. I want to be able to WalMart camp or take it off the beaten path.
I know I want to be able to move around in it AND haul 4 bikes and a dual sport (dirt bike), and I should be able to do that with my floorplan.
What I'm undecided on:
Single or double axle?
Is 2500-3k too heavy for a trailer I plan to take off pavement, even if it has brakes?
That's about it at this point. More issues will definitely come to light.
Here's what I know:
I want rid of the 25" white box and I want to make do with a more versatile trailer. Obviously regular camping trailers don't go off pavement well at all.
I know we want stand up height, so that we can build in a few things we've always wanted, particularly a shower, kitchen and indoor seating for bad weather. The Sportsmobile has spoiled us on indoor living space.
I know I want this trailer to have an open floor plan in the back so it can be used for utility purposes at home. My Expedition is currently set up with one bunk and a rear door kitchen like many SUVs and has become worthless as a Home Depo/lumber hauler.
I know I don't plan to wheel with it anywhere close to where I would take my van or any of the Jeeps I've had. Part of the idea with an enclosed trailer is that it will be fairly secure parked places where I might want to drop the trailer and explore. An Ebola research sticker on the side or something should help with this. I want to be able to WalMart camp or take it off the beaten path.
I know I want to be able to move around in it AND haul 4 bikes and a dual sport (dirt bike), and I should be able to do that with my floorplan.
What I'm undecided on:
Single or double axle?
Is 2500-3k too heavy for a trailer I plan to take off pavement, even if it has brakes?
That's about it at this point. More issues will definitely come to light.
I have drug mine on some pretty tough trails, it weighed in at 2400 pounds with 40 gallons of water, 10 gallons of fuel, propane, fridge, generator and the like. But all of the weight was counter weighted, you could lift the front end without problems, yet tow it at 90 mile and hour. All of my real weight was just above the axle, so the center of gravity was very low. I did feel that it was at the limit for my FJ. I was pulling 35's all around, and did regear to 456. I was able to drag it over Imogene, up to the top of Black Bear and over Engineer, down Rose Garden Hill. I also had independent suspension and independent brakes, that were used for off camber and very sharp turns, and guidance on extremely steep downhills and clearing rocks. What you mention as trails seems doable at 3k no problem, depending on what your towing it with.
Again depending on towing vehicle, even a 1000 pound trailer needs brakes off road. It is not whether it will stop or not, it is will it stop when you need it to stop.
Again depending on towing vehicle, even a 1000 pound trailer needs brakes off road. It is not whether it will stop or not, it is will it stop when you need it to stop.
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Yea I tend to get a little carried away with my builds. LOL
I think with the Expedition you should be good to go, another small problem I did not think about prior with a tandem is, and it does happen, if you have to disconnect to turn the trailer around, it will be almost impossible to do it. Heavy nosed single axle ones are a real pain in the butt to. I have had to do it, off on a side shoot in the mountains, narrow overgrown trail, in Colorado. Rockslide closed the trail and knocked a number of large trees down. Took a long time and made for a long day, at least I slept well afterwards. Department of Forestry was closing the trail as me and my friend came out.
I think with the Expedition you should be good to go, another small problem I did not think about prior with a tandem is, and it does happen, if you have to disconnect to turn the trailer around, it will be almost impossible to do it. Heavy nosed single axle ones are a real pain in the butt to. I have had to do it, off on a side shoot in the mountains, narrow overgrown trail, in Colorado. Rockslide closed the trail and knocked a number of large trees down. Took a long time and made for a long day, at least I slept well afterwards. Department of Forestry was closing the trail as me and my friend came out.
I've been pondering this for a while. Looking for a better family base camp for the 5 of us.
Shutt seems to have a nice design.
Or look at the Bruder trailer but so pricey!!!
Shutt seems to have a nice design.
Or look at the Bruder trailer but so pricey!!!