Dual Battery Shore Power Charging Question
- Thread starter 1Louder
- Start date
1Louder
Explorer
I think my Noco 3500 is fine for the Optima. The Odyssey/PM-1 is the issue.
Ducky's Dad
Explorer
A low-amp charger will charge a 2150 just fine, as long as the 2150/PM1 is in perfect condition. Your 2150 will never be in perfect condition because of the charging characteristics of the Toy's alternator. Once the sulfation starts (inevitable with that vehicle), the low-amp charger will not be able to blow the sulfation off the plates. The issue is one of charging vs conditioning. Low-amp will charge but won't recondition that battery. My Optimate low-amp charger is designed for AGMs but won't recondition the 2150, works fine on FLA and Optima yellows. My Ctek 7002 is an Odyssey-approved low-amp charger, but is approved only for the smaller Odysseys. It is even better and faster than the Optimate and works great on Optima yellows and old FLAs, but won't recondition the 2150. The Ultimizer 40-amp is designed specifically for the larger Odyssey batteries and does seem to work a whole lot faster than the smaller chargers for charging. At this point I'll have to believe that it is better for conditioning the 2150, because I have limited time with that charger on a newish battery. The Ultimizers have been discontinued, but I believe they were made for Odyssey by Schumacher. Last time I looked, the new Odyssey chargers were not yet out.
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Ducky's Dad
Explorer
Can't hurt, but you'll still need a conditioning charger. I just installed a 270 amp alternator in my Dodge (285 amps max, 116 amps at idle) to feed my Odysssey 2150 and two Optima Blue dual purpose G34s. Still hooking up to a conditioning charger. Bruce Essig, one of Odyssey's founders, does the same with his, at two-month intervals. I'm tired of buying expensive batteries.
cactusjk
Explorer
Talk to Larry at Dirty Parts. I just installed his upgraded Alt fuse in mine. I have his dual battery setup running a red starter and yellow secondary Optima.
Ducky's Dad
Explorer
I ran that setup for years in my old GMC with stock 105 amp alternator, no issues. The 2150/PM1 is a different animal and requires different care and feeding.
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
M A Y B E
-- As Ducky's Dad has noted, many times, the Odyssey battery wants to end up at a very high voltage, as high as 14.7v at 20C.
-- The FJ charging system is reported to peak at 13.9v. This should be enough to maintain a starter battery, but it will take much longer to charge and if there are any problems with the wiring may fail to fully charge the starter battery, especially if there are other batteries attached as well. If the battery is consistently under charged, which seems very possible, then it will sulfate and lose capacity.
-- If the battery has lost capacity, then a low amp, low voltage charger will never recover it.
As they say in West Africa, "What to do?" Some combination of these may help:
-- Recondition the suspect battery(s). This will probably require an intelligent, high voltage, high current shore charger. And even then, you will have to be careful to read the specific manufacturer's manual and follow the steps exactly. This is especially true for any form of sealed/valve release battery like an AGM.
-- Add a good solar charger to the system; one that will peak at around 14.5v at 20C. Then make sure that you get lots of sun and that the charge is spread among all of your batteries with a decent intelligent relay or similar system.
-- Get your Toyota to run at a higher voltage with a product like this: http://www.hkbelect.com/products/toyota/ or this: http://www.mechman.com/accessories/...e-voltage-boost-module-for-oval-3-pin-toyota/
-- Run a conventional starter battery and use a B2B, such as those made by CTEK or Sterling Power to boost the voltage to your camper battery.
Ducky's Dad
Explorer
Per my conversations with Odyssey, recovering these batteries will be only a very temporary fix. The sulfation is a vicious cycle, and once you recover the battery the sulfation will start again because of the characteristics of the truck's charging system. With this particular battery, I think we need to view shore power conditioning cycles as part of the truck's regular maintenance, just like changing the engine oil at regular intervals. I wish Odyssey would be up front about this little detail in their pre-sale marketing, rather than forcing us to learn the hard way.
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
This is all part of an evolution in the design of "12" volt batteries. Seems to have started with open FLA batteries (Trojan, for example) with the battery manufacturers calling for ever higher voltages to overcome internal resistance and reduce sulfating. At first it was the open FLA batteries, because you could top up the water, and not the AGM/Gel etc., because they were sealed. Then even the AGM crowd began to call for higher voltages.
There have been some interesting disconnects. I have heard (but cannot prove) that Mercedes Benz got sideways with Bosch. They started speccing batteries that wanted higher voltages but their charging systems were still running at the lower voltages. (Like Toyota?) The result was a lot of customers with weakened batteries. GM Delco went with Lead Calcium batteries, but at least on my 2013 Silverado, they used a very frisky charging system that ramps up to 15.5v at freezing.
I have argued the dates of all of this with user dwh several times, but the whole industry of B2B (battery to battery, or DC to DC) chargers grew up from the need to produce charging voltages over 14v on vehicles that only produced in the 13v range. Once more and more manufacturers got into the 14v range, the need for a secondary controller fell away and a relay system provided much better performance. (Ironically, the next big market for B2B's may be in reducing the voltage back to the 13v range for Lithium batteries.
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Ducky's Dad
Explorer
Can't really disagree with anything you state, except for the 14V range floor. My original alternator in the Dodge (160 amp) was often in the 14.2-14.3V range at cruising speeds, and would occasionally kiss 14.6V, but only briefly. Odyssey told me repeatedly (because I can be stubborn) that my voltage levels were too low to support that battery and that my 160 amp alternator was marginal.
Separate but related comment. Watched an episode of Jay Leno's Garage with a couple of Ctek guys on it. According to their comments in the video, several new cars (including the C7 Corvette) are coming from the factory with Ctek charger/conditioner/maintainer units so that the batteries can be maintained while the cars are garaged.
Separate but related comment. Watched an episode of Jay Leno's Garage with a couple of Ctek guys on it. According to their comments in the video, several new cars (including the C7 Corvette) are coming from the factory with Ctek charger/conditioner/maintainer units so that the batteries can be maintained while the cars are garaged.
1Louder
Explorer
Cee-fish ordered the fuse modification from Dirty Parts for the both of us. So we will see what happens with that. Today I removed my entire dual battery setup. If I re-install it down the road I am going to move the 2nd battery to the front left of the FJ. That requires a small modification but the old mount I had at the left rear failed and I had to remove the battery this weekend. Now back to the thread topic. All of this has been great information. Really a learning process. So many folks say put a monster PM-1, Odyssey 2150, etc in and you will be good. Well if the electrical system isn't up to the task that said battery will not give you the extra reserve power you are looking for.
If I can do a restore on the battery with a proper charger and this fuse mod gives me higher alternator output I will drop the PM-1 back in. For now I am down to my Group 34 Yellow top.
If I can do a restore on the battery with a proper charger and this fuse mod gives me higher alternator output I will drop the PM-1 back in. For now I am down to my Group 34 Yellow top.
1Louder
Explorer
Not that it matters at this point but when I pulled the system out today the wires between everything or either 6 or 4 AWG. They are quite thick. Hopefully I can get the fuse mod installed early next week and see what results it produces. I also found post #3 in this thread very useful. Such a solid explanation on the math of all of this stuff.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...ons-Dual-battery-solar-stand-alone-deep-cycle