Effective - But Not Efficient - Knot for Slippery Synthetic Line

[Howard70]

Recovery Colleagues:

If you have to join two pieces of slippery synthetic line (like Amsteel Blue) the strongest joint comes from an end-to-end deep bury, lock stitched splice. Almost as strong and preferred by some is an end to end Brummel splice (no lock stitching required). Most knots won’t work in slippery synthetic lines as the tails will slowly creep through when the line is heavily loaded.

I recently ran across two knots that appear to work for some folks with Amsteel Blue. One is really easy to tie, but slightly weaker and perhaps impossible to untie after load. The other is complex but slightly stronger and reputedly unties well if you have a Marlin spike. I’ve not tested these much yet, but thought I’d share them here for those occasions where, for whatever reason, a hand tied but weaker knot might be preferable to a splice. Both of these knots reputedly reduce line strength to about 40% whereas a deep bury, lock stitched end to end splice retains close to 100% of line strength.

Easy to tie: Triple Fisherman’s knot. Video example is not tied with synthetic line but knot is the same (you might leave longer tails).

Complex to tie: First Bend. The link contains an explanation of the knot as well as an anecdotal comparison to the Triple Fisherman’s. Note that the website linked is cumbersome & heavily loaded with ads & thus hard to see on a mobile device so going there on a computer might be more pleasant.

Again, your strongest joins will come from end to end splices! No need to discuss why splices are better. I’d only use these knots in rare cases where the 60% loss in strength was offset by something (speed, lost my fid, not enough line for splicing, etc).

Howard

 

[Climber Rob]

Have used a double or triple fishermans' for so many years climbing, I use it most of the time I join two ropes together. Easy to tie and have never had a rope fail at the knot. The only downside is that they can be tough to untie after being heavily loaded.

 

[billiebob]

I swear by the double figure 8 or traced 8 knot, maybe the most common mountaineering knot. I've never had an issue untying it. Never used it with a winch but often use it as a recovery rope. For me the loop over the trailer hitch is always a traced 8. I can do it blind folded. Incredibly fast. Same knot joins two ropes by tracing the 8 with the second rope.

traced 8 knot - Google Search

www.google.ca

The only other knot I use where life and limb are at risk is a bowline..... and I always recite the rabbit runs round the tree theme.

Other than those I use variations if the half hitch to tie things on the roof.

3 knots, for 40 years, climbing, trucking, towing. 3 knots do everything for me.
I often tie off working on a roof and the bowline is my go to fall restraint.

 

[displacedtexan]

The only other knot I use where life and limb are at risk is a bowline..... and I always recite the rabbit runs round the tree theme.

I can tie a bowline hammered drunk.

But the rabbit/tree thing confuses me when I'm stone sober.

 

[Howard70]

@Climber Rob - I’m with you on the 2x & 3x Fisherman’s. First learned it when tying slings for Chouinard stoppers back in the early ‘70’s when The Great Pacific Iron Works was still around and Patagonia and Black Diamond Equipment weren’t!

@billiebob - I’m glad those three knots have served you well! They are classics! I’ve been using them and Prusiks for about 55 years. Personally, the traced Figure 8 fails to hold well for me when joining two lengths of Amsteel Blue so I preferred the Triple Fisherman’s for that type of line and I’ll probably move to the First Bend if I can get to the point where I tie it easily. Being able to untie knotted lengths of Amsteel Blue would be helpful for some of my rigging.

@displacedtexan - I used to run the foredeck on three different racing sailboats (23’, 33’ and 40’). Had to be able to tie bowlines behind my back while taking waves over the bow - the damn rabbit drowned……..

Howard

 

[displacedtexan]

@displacedtexan - I used to run the foredeck on three different racing sailboats (23’, 33’ and 40’). Had to be able to tie bowlines behind my back while taking waves over the bow - the damn rabbit drowned……..

Howard

I'm a bird dog guy, and a knot guy. So for me it's less vital, just a fascination.

 

[Alloy]

Recovery Colleagues:

If you have to join two pieces of slippery synthetic line (like Amsteel Blue) the strongest joint comes from an end-to-end deep bury, lock stitched splice. Almost as strong and preferred by some is an end to end Brummel splice (no lock stitching required). Most knots won’t work in slippery synthetic lines as the tails will slowly creep through when the line is heavily loaded.

I recently ran across two knots that appear to work for some folks with Amsteel Blue. One is really easy to tie, but slightly weaker and perhaps impossible to untie after load. The other is complex but slightly stronger and reputedly unties well if you have a Marlin spike. I’ve not tested these much yet, but thought I’d share them here for those occasions where, for whatever reason, a hand tied but weaker knot might be preferable to a splice. Both of these knots reputedly reduce line strength to about 40% whereas a deep bury, lock stitched end to end splice retains close to 100% of line strength.

Easy to tie: Triple Fisherman’s knot. Video example is not tied with synthetic line but knot is the same (you might leave longer tails).

Complex to tie: First Bend. The link contains an explanation of the knot as well as an anecdotal comparison to the Triple Fisherman’s. Note that the website linked is cumbersome & heavily loaded with ads & thus hard to see on a mobile device so going there on a computer might be more pleasant.

Again, your strongest joins will come from end to end splices! No need to discuss why splices are better. I’d only use these knots in rare cases where the 60% loss in strength was offset by something (speed, lost my fid, not enough line for splicing, etc).

Howard

As far as knots go I understood a "bend" to be weaker and the triple fisherman knot/loop was the strongest.

Once loaded you'll be lucky if a Dyneema knot comes apart without using a knife .

 

[Howard70]

As far as knots go I understood a "bend" to be weaker and the triple fisherman knot/loop was the strongest.

Once loaded you'll be lucky if a Dyneema knot comes apart without using a knife .

Hello Alloy:

I suspect there's a lot of confusing terminology out there. By some definitions any knot that joins two lines is a "bend." Thus some call the Triple Fishermans a "bend" as well. Someone who has tested both the Triple Fisherman's and the First Bend reports that the First Bend is a bit stronger and claims that he's tested untying the Fist Bend after loading and found it possible by inserting a spike into the center of the knot. Because I haven't done my own testing yet, I can't verify nor deny those reports. However, I've used the L-36.com site for a lot of other splicing & testing information and found his analytical, data driven approach accurate, much like Robert Pepper's site for recovery techniques. Once I've loaded a First Bend and attempted untying I'll report back. I agree that a loaded Triple Fishermans will take a sharp knife to untie and that it is a very simple knot to tie.

Howard

 

[billiebob]

I'm old school and steel cable is my preference but do they make wedge sockets for synthetic line?
They work well with steel and some are designed to come apart with a hammer blow.

 

[Alloy]

Hello Alloy:

I suspect there's a lot of confusing terminology out there. By some definitions any knot that joins two lines is a "bend." Thus some call the Triple Fishermans a "bend" as well. Someone who has tested both the Triple Fisherman's and the First Bend reports that the First Bend is a bit stronger and claims that he's tested untying the Fist Bend after loading and found it possible by inserting a spike into the center of the knot. Because I haven't done my own testing yet, I can't verify nor deny those reports. However, I've used the L-36.com site for a lot of other splicing & testing information and found his analytical, data driven approach accurate, much like Robert Pepper's site for recovery techniques. Once I've loaded a First Bend and attempted untying I'll report back. I agree that a loaded Triple Fishermans will take a sharp knife to untie and that it is a very simple knot to tie.

Howard

This is a chart from an article I read a while back that Marlow Ropes put it together. The article was really good becasue it compared several types of ropes. I can't find it maybe someone elese can.