Electrical help please - lost and confused - calculating battery needs for uses

Chorky

Observer
I totally agree. Already have invested significant amounts of time and $$, and more to be had. I also agree I need to do more reading and research. There's always something new to learn. But the reason for all the questions is the more reading and research I do the more contradicting information I continue to find. Contradictions all over the place. Source A may say x*y=100, while source B may say x*y=200, while source C may say x*y=5, all for the same scenario. So I am asking questions hoping those who have been there might be willing to provide more solid information. Its quite confusing, and frustrating, when one spends days and months reading from thousands of sources, forums, papers, etc... and they all seem to contradict one another. It makes things difficult. I suppose I can just go for it, make my own mistakes and find out on my own. But was hoping to alleviate the 'making mistakes' portion. Maybe I have not been finding the correct sources to read from though.

I do appreciate the links to your slides though. :) And all the other information on this thread and others.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
More questions:
1) in the mean time, I many times see the word 'golf cart' batteries being thrown out there. For the good of the group (and myself) can anyone expand on this? In other words, what specifically is a golf cart battery. Is it just any standard 6v that can be found from various manufacturers? Or is it a specific part number, etc…
Golf Cart = Deep cycle, aka forklift or traction. Big plates.

2) if one did not want to use a 6v still, what recommendations would you all have for normal 12v AGM batteries? Specific brands?
There is no magic to 6v batteries. You are going to build a 12v bank, so mix and match as required. Because of marketing (e.g. golf carts) there are a lot of high amp 6v batteries. With lead acid the weights are so high that you probably want to keep the weight of each physical battery under 50kg. for ease of installation, etc.

3) let's talk batteries....I've looked up info before about different groups but found information that was not very detailed. Where can I find very specific detailed information that actually explains why different battery groups have different specs. Is it only size that is different which allows for bigger plate surface area or are there other differences?
See my link for long, boring discussions of this. https://cookfb.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/battery-charge-slides.pdf

4) from those who have solar, do they really provide enough of a charge to make it worth it?
Absolutely. I would go so far as to posit that you cannot fully charge a lead acid battery without with solar or shore power. Rule of thumb: 100w of solar for every 100Ah.

5) one question that also relates to this topic, but is different, is wire sizing. Any recommendations on how to go about assuming the correct wire size needed. Let's use a different topic as an example. Let's say, for my specific truck with two factory batteries, hooking up a winch. So a 16.5 warn can pull up to 610 amps, but the winch might be connected to the primary battery. Naturally this could cause a potential 300a draw from the secondary battery which may only have a, say, an upgraded 2/0 battery to battery cable. Now how would one calculate necessary cable size for this particular draw. To put it in another more relevant situation. Let's say I decided on 2, (or maybe 4) 12v AGM batteries in the bed as the 'house' batteries. Lets estimate the wire run needed to be, say, 12'. Now lets say my upgraded MeanGreen alternator puts out a max 200a. How would one go about calculating the wire size needed for this run? I ask because several sources I have looked at online have different values, thus causing confusion compared to my own electrical knowledge...
With wire, bigger is better. Use this to see the impact of changing wire size, voltage, and distance. https://www.calculator.net/voltage-...nce=15&distanceunit=feet&amperes=100&x=38&y=6

As amps drop, so does voltage drop. As a rule of thumb, you might size things so that you get the full target voltage (e.g. 14.4v) at 50A or less. This will probably get you the most cost effective wire size for real world results. (So writes the guy who wired his truck with 2x1/0AWGx8m.)



6) another relevant situation was to utilize a manually switching 200a solenoid to separate the house batteries from the vehicle batteries. Now, in having 2 separate electrical 'systems', what do some of you use to decide what component gets hooked up to what system? So for example, taken to consideration all the components above, that would be mounted in the bed, the 'cleanest' way would be to have all those components wired to the 'house' batteries. But, would this be the better way, in your opinion? Or should some things like the compressor be wired to the engine batteries even though it is mounted to the bed.
This is beaten into the ground here: https://cookfb.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/dual-battery-slides-2016.pdf

7) to caviat off of #6, lets talk charging. The plan is to also include a shore power charger, for when I'm at camp sites, or in the future when I have a house, if that ever happens (I live out of this truck, but in a travel trailer, which hopefully soon will be replaced with the camper this system is being designed for). So, what are some preferred methods of charging? Would a dedicated in bed mounted 'car charger' be better? I do not know what shore power charging options are available. Of course it would be nice to have something that can utilize a standard 30a RV circuit as those are easier to bring down to a normal wall outlet, but do take advantage of a higher amp circuit if one is available. 50a circuits are still not as readily available for the places I have seen as a 30a is.
Again, lots of ways to do this, I like Magnum Inverter/Chargers as I have had good luck with two of them. You don't need more than about 15A 110 to get a 75A+ charge, so 30A and 50A at campgrounds are really as simple as plug adapters. Many standard RV cables are terminated for 30A. I have a 15A adapter and have never worried about 50A.
 

grizzlyj

Tea pot tester
4) Currently at about 58degrees north in winter solar does not very much other than keep things topped up when the camper is not in use. Around the Med in summer though and even minimal wattage is awesome.
Also, charging from "the alternator" can mean from a standard unit that might only ever bulk charge to about 80% because thats all an average starter battery might need, to a "smart" alternator costing a fair bit more that charges more quickly and to a higher %, or perhaps using a battery to battery charger that fools a standard alternator into keeping on going above where it normally would to fill a second camper bank.
 

J!m

Active member
My plate heat exchanger is a bit larger than a VHS tape. Remember those? Not very large at all.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Also, charging from "the alternator" can mean from a standard unit that might only ever bulk charge to about 80% because thats all an average starter battery might need

Sorry, but no...that's incorrect.

A starter battery needs to get to 100% just like any other lead-acid battery. But it's super fast and easy because starting the engine only draws the battery down by maybe 1/5 of one amp*hour, so in only a few minutes the battery is back to 100%.


to a "smart" alternator costing a fair bit more that charges more quickly and to a higher %

There are no smart alternators - only smart voltage regulators.


or perhaps using a battery to battery charger that fools a standard alternator into keeping on going above where it normally would to fill a second camper bank.

A normal vehicle "charging system" is not much of a charging system. It's primarily designed to supply the loads - radio, lights, heater/ac blower, etc. - and just allow the battery to take care of itself since the battery will quickly reach full charge after engine start.

Because of this, the "charging system" doesn't need to really hold a steady voltage, or a particularly high voltage.

Still, as long as it holds a reasonably high voltage (14v+) it will charge an aux battery to 100%...eventually. But few people drive enough hours per day to get it done.


What the battery to battery (B2B) charger does is...

A) Fool the voltage regulator by keeping a constant load on the charging system, drawing down the voltage and causing the voltage regulator to keep the alternator turned on all the time.

B) Bump up the incoming voltage so as to provide a steady, higher, voltage potential on the output side in order to get the aux battery to absorb power somewhat faster.


Either way is a question of time, and while the B2B might get it done faster, it still might take enough time that driving alone won't ever get the aux battery to 100%.
 

grizzlyj

Tea pot tester
:cool:
I'd always thought/read/assumed that a normal vehicle alternator will only bulk charge so can't get a battery to 100%, and that you'd need a different charging profile to totally fill one up? Which was what partly made solar and/or a shore charger so worth having on a camper, especially if you aim to stay above the 80% charge to maintain battery lifespan?
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
No, they are essentially constant voltage power supplies (though the voltage does vary a bit throughout a range). Almost all of the old dumb benchtop chargers were constant voltage. It'll get the job done...if you have enough time.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
:cool:
I'd always thought/read/assumed that a normal vehicle alternator will only bulk charge so can't get a battery to 100%, and that you'd need a different charging profile to totally fill one up? Which was what partly made solar and/or a shore charger so worth having on a camper, especially if you aim to stay above the 80% charge to maintain battery lifespan?

"Multi-Stage" charging is partly, but not entirely a marketing ploy. Much of the process is controlled by the natural reactions of the lead acid battery to its charge source.

-- To charge a battery, the charging source - alternator, shore charger, solar controller, or simply another battery must be at a higher level than the target battery.

-- The rate at which a battery charges is determined by the difference in voltage and the number of amps available.

-- As a lead acid battery charges, its internal voltage rises. At first this is what is called a "surface charge." It may not be real, but it is enough to slow your charge rate much faster than you would like. This is why you can't get a 200A charge rate, even with a 200A alternator, charger, etc.

-- Unless you have a constant current charger (typically found only in specialty shops) the charger is designed to drop its amperage as the amp flow drops. And as the voltage of the battery approaches the voltage of the charge source, the amp flow drops automatically. Most chargers simply note this and throttle back.

The voltage regulator in your car is smart enough to deal with this. Basically, it looks at your starter battery and as that battery's voltage approaches the target, it will cut back on the amp flow. Finally, when the amp flow drops to a set point, it will usually drop the voltage to the float level.

Getting a vehicle's alternator/regulator system to charge a camper battery requires that you lower the voltage of the starter battery so that the alternator will keep charging. You can do this two ways. (At least.)

-- A low resistance path (i.e. BIG wires) between the starter battery and the camper battery. This lets the voltage regulator "see" the lower voltage of the camper battery, or,

-- A DC-DC (aka B2B) charger which, as dwh noted, artificially drops the voltage of the starter battery so that the alternator reacts and produces current. The B2B then boosts (typically) this voltage and applies it to the camper battery.

But in all of this volts is volts and amps is amps, there are no magic absorb or bulk electrons.

Sooo, got a South African Toyota which runs at 13.9v, a big camper battery, and tiny wires? A B2B, even one limited to 25A, will be MUCH better. Got a Chevrolet which runs at well over 14v and you are much, much better off with a relay system and big wires.

As noted, the problem with the vehicle's charging system is less the profile and more that you won't leave it on long enough to get through the hours ob absorb time needed to dissipate the surface charge and really charge the batteries. This is where solar and shore chargers can be invaluable.
 

Chorky

Observer
Thank you for the great replies.

Quotes edited and condensed for easier reading.

Rule of thumb: 100w of solar for every 100Ah.
With wire, bigger is better. Use this to see the impact of changing wire size, voltage, and distance. https://www.calculator.net/voltage-...nce=15&distanceunit=feet&amperes=100&x=38&y=6
As amps drop, so does voltage drop. As a rule of thumb, you might size things so that you get the full target voltage (e.g. 14.4v) at 50A or less. This will probably get you the most cost effective wire size for real world results. (So writes the guy who wired his truck with 2x1/0AWGx8m.)
This is beaten into the ground here: https://cookfb.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/dual-battery-slides-2016.pdf

Awesome info thank you. I currently am wiring the charging circuit with a single 2/0 cable...maybe I should change this and add a second cable. I'll have to do some math again and see what size to run under the body the needed 10' or so to the bed batteries and see what figures I come up with. Shooting from the hip I had planned on 2 2/0 wires. We'lll see if that changes now though. My alternator usually charges a constant 14.4. But then again the glow plugs pull a lot of power especially in cold temps when I cycle them twice. Thank you for all the links, this was a great read.

My plate heat exchanger is a bit larger than a VHS tape. Remember those? Not very large at all.
Haha yes I do! I think a few are in the garage still too. That's interesting they are that small. I'll have to look into this, might do some testing just to see how it works.


What the battery to battery (B2B) charger does is...
A) Fool the voltage regulator by keeping a constant load on the charging system, drawing down the voltage and causing the voltage regulator to keep the alternator turned on all the time.
B) Bump up the incoming voltage so as to provide a steady, higher, voltage potential on the output side in order to get the aux battery to absorb power somewhat faster.
Either way is a question of time, and while the B2B might get it done faster, it still might take enough time that driving alone won't ever get the aux battery to 100%.
-- A low resistance path (i.e. BIG wires) between the starter battery and the camper battery. This lets the voltage regulator "see" the lower voltage of the camper battery, or,
-- A DC-DC (aka B2B) charger which, as dwh noted, artificially drops the voltage of the starter battery so that the alternator reacts and produces current. The B2B then boosts (typically) this voltage and applies it to the camper battery.


As noted, the problem with the vehicle's charging system is less the profile and more that you won't leave it on long enough to get through the hours ob absorb time needed to dissipate the surface charge and really charge the batteries. This is where solar and shore chargers can be invaluable.

So it sounds like solar will certainly be in the plan, although that won't help much in the winter time. I think in the winter I would end up using more electrical power than summer just due to longer run times of heaters alone. But, if I understand what you two are saying here correctly then, in the case that the alternator is connected to the main starting battery, and a cable from that same connection also runs directly to the 'camper' batteries - so you more or less have a series of parallell battery circuits - then why would the alternator be unable to 'see' the lower state of the camper batteries? I suppose maybe it depends on where the ground circuit is located for the charging regulator? I may need to poke around with the good old multimeter to actually see what I'm thinking in the noggin though.

This also makes me consider, again if I understand correctly, that it is absolutely imperative to make sure that the wire run from the alternator to the camper batteries has the same, if not less, overall resistance than the alternator to the primary starting battery. If this is done, without having to use massive 3/0 welding cable), then would the regulator see the camper batteries first?, or at the very least allow an equal charge to the camper batteries and the vehicle's main batteries?

I'm thinking at this point, electrical theory can only be discussed so much before tests and trials are necessary. So possibly getting 2 normal 12v batteries (to mount in the bed), a battery monitor, 200a constant state solenoid, and a heavy electrical load (possibly 44a air compressor I had not planned on until next year) would be enough materials to test some of these theories and see what is necessary for good operation before going full bore on a complete electrical project. Thoughts on this? I think it would solve a lot of other questions by doing some test trials.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Shooting from the hip I had planned on 2 2/0 wires.

If I recall correctly, Fred (DiploStrat) actually used a pair of 2/0 for positive and another pair for negative on the big battery bank / dual alternators of his previous camper. He's a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Or at least he was. However, even with a pair of 125a alternators in parallel, and pairs of ginormous wire in parallel, again IIRC, he rarely saw over 150a charge current, and for the most part, significantly less than that, so I doubt he's so much into overkill on his current truck setup.


But, if I understand what you two are saying here correctly then, in the case that the alternator is connected to the main starting battery, and a cable from that same connection also runs directly to the 'camper' batteries - so you more or less have a series of parallell battery circuits - then why would the alternator be unable to 'see' the lower state of the camper batteries? I suppose maybe it depends on where the ground circuit is located for the charging regulator? I may need to poke around with the good old multimeter to actually see what I'm thinking in the noggin though.

This also makes me consider, again if I understand correctly, that it is absolutely imperative to make sure that the wire run from the alternator to the camper batteries has the same, if not less, overall resistance than the alternator to the primary starting battery. If this is done, without having to use massive 3/0 welding cable), then would the regulator see the camper batteries first?, or at the very least allow an equal charge to the camper batteries and the vehicle's main batteries?

Unfortunately, speaking in generalities, as Fred was doing in that bit you quoted, does have its drawbacks. It can get simple ideas across quickly, but breaks down under deeper analysis.

When the batteries are tied via ACR or dumb solenoid (either would be what is technically known as a "split-charge relay"), then it's just one big system. I call it "the 12v bus". The voltage regulator monitors the voltage of the bus at some place, and then reacts to changes in the voltage that it is monitoring. It reacts by applying voltage to energize the "clutch" in the alternator, known as the "field coil" to turn the alternator on, or cutting the voltage to the field coil to turn the alternator off. This happens very quickly.

Lead-acid batteries reach a state called "surface charge" where electrons build up on the lead plates at the plate to electrolyte interface. This surface charge has several effects, the one that concerns us in this instance is that the "apparent voltage" of the battery is falsely inflated. Stop charging and take a reading across the terminals of the battery and it might read 14v, even if the battery is less than half charged. (This is why you can't get an accurate read on the battery SoC with voltage, unless you stop charge/discharge and wait long enough for the surface charge to dissipate and then read the battery's true voltage, called the "resting voltage".)

Okay, so both batteries are connected to the bus (thus becoming loads on the bus rather than supplies to the bus). The voltage regulator is reading bus voltage somewhere. The bus voltage potential when the alternator is switched on is higher than the batteries' resting voltage potential, so power flows from the bus to the batteries. Each battery absorbs at a rate determined by its particular situation - resistance of the battery, resistance of the wire, battery voltage potential vs. bus potential. First of all, you don't get power flow from one battery to the other, because the alternator has a lower resistance/higher potential than either battery, so if either battery is going to absorb power, that power will flow from the alternator.

Now the engine battery, having been drawn down very little to start the truck, will very quickly reach a point where the SoC/resistance/surface charge prevents pretty much any power from flowing through it.

The aux battery, which we can assume is at a much lower SoC, will take longer to get to that point. Say, an hour. But it will get to that point. So power essentially stops flowing through the aux battery, the bus voltage is steady and high, and the voltage regulator spends the majority of its time with the alternator clutch switched off. But because the aux battery does have a low SoC, it will dissipate the surface charge somewhat quickly, it's voltage/resistance will fall some, it will absorb power from the bus, the bus voltage will fall, and the voltage regulator will switch the alternator back on.

As the aux battery reaches a higher SoC, it takes longer for the surface charge to dissipate, and the resistance is higher, so the amount of time the voltage regulator spends with the alternator switched on is reduced, and the amount of current flowing to the aux battery is steadily reduced over time (tapers off) as the SoC rises. (This is why lead-acid battery chargers "taper off" the charge current as the battery approaches full - it's not a smart feature of a well designed charger, as the marketing droids would have us believe, it's just a basic fact of how the physics/chemistry works in charging lead-acid batteries.)

This is unavoidable and will happen. It can however, be made worse.

One potential problem is if the wiring to the aux battery isn't adequate, then the resistance of the aux battery + wiring will further reduce the amp flow beyond what it is already being reduced by the battery's surface charge and SoC/resistance. At least, it will in the beginning of the charging cycle, when the amp flow is highest (assuming the battery wasn't completely dead, which would also have a very high resistance and cause reduced amp flow until the battery SoC came up some). As the battery approaches a higher (near fully charged) SoC, less amps will flow no matter if the wire is the size of a telephone pole, and the amps will taper off naturally. Reducing the amp flow, reduces the load on the wiring, which reduces the voltage drop induced in the wiring, which reduces the need for oversized wire.

Another potential problem is if the bus voltage is low (such as the previously mentioned Toyota 13.9v example, or an alternator/voltage regulator that puts out less at idle (as most do)). The lower bus voltage represents a lower difference in potential between the bus and the battery, which will reduce amp flow.


So if the voltage regulator holds a decently high voltage (I believe you said yours does 14.4v, which is decently high), then the only mitigation strategy needed is larger wire. But that only helps during the heavy amp flow part of the charging cycle (known as the "bulk stage"). Once the SoC reaches a certain point, the need for oversize wire becomes less and less. So my normal recommendation is to ignore such things as "voltage drop calculators" and instead size the wire to safely handle the max expected amperage flow. So if you have a 130a alternator, you don't really need wire/fuse sized to handle more than that. Sized to handle 150a would be adequate. Yes, you might see a slightly reduced charge rate (amp flow) during the initial bulk charge phase, but that effect will go away as the battery surface charge and SoC rise, and then for the majority of the hours long charge cycle, your wire sized to handle 150a would be grossly oversized. Not having oversized wire might add a few minutes or perhaps even an hour to a charge cycle that is going to take 6-8 hours (or more), depending. Oh, when designing solar systems for FBOs, that extra time might be a deal-breaker, but for charging camper batteries, it's not really an issue. Not driving enough, or not having enough solar, or drawing down the batteries too low on a regular basis is much more important than whether a full charge cycle takes 8 hours or 9 hours (or 15 hours or 16 hours).*


If however, the voltage regulator doesn't hold a decently high voltage, or the vehicle spends a lot of time idling (reduced bus voltage), then a B2B can help, by A) drawing down the bus voltage, thereby forcing the voltage regulator to keep the alternator switched on, and B) by bumping up (in DC electronic terms, "boost converting") the incoming voltage to a higher output voltage, thereby creating a higher supply vs. load difference in potential, and causing more steady continuous amperage flow through the battery.



* Note that this applies to sizing wire to charge lead-acid batteries. Sizing wire to feed a load from a battery - such as an inverter - is a different matter; in that situation voltage drop matters because it gets worse over time, instead of getting better. Sizing wire to charge big lithium batteries is a different matter - you might want to restrict the amp flow with a big Li battery.


[continued in next post due to the retarded 10k character limit]
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I'm thinking at this point, electrical theory can only be discussed so much before tests and trials are necessary. So possibly getting 2 normal 12v batteries (to mount in the bed), a battery monitor, 200a constant state solenoid, and a heavy electrical load (possibly 44a air compressor I had not planned on until next year) would be enough materials to test some of these theories and see what is necessary for good operation before going full bore on a complete electrical project. Thoughts on this? I think it would solve a lot of other questions by doing some test trials.

I would recommend that the "2 normal 12v batteries" you buy to do your testing should be deep cycle batteries. In which case you are essentially done. With decent batteries, a decently high bus voltage, decently sized wire, and a split-charge relay, you will have just about reached the pinnacle of what can be achieved in terms of charging the battery from the truck's bus. You might want to do some upgrades, such as an ACR, which is a smart split-charge relay. BTW, I don't think I mentioned that Samlex makes a decent one at a decent price, Google "Samlex ACR-160". You might want to add some solar. You would certainly want a decent shore power charger.

Personally, I also carry a small generator. Small is all I need since I only use it for battery charging. I have this one:

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/42432-1400-watt-portable-generator/

Love it. Plus, Champion has just about the best customer service I've ever dealt with.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
If I recall correctly, Fred (DiploStrat) actually used a pair of 2/0 for positive and another pair for negative on the big battery bank / dual alternators of his previous camper. He's a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Or at least he was. However, even with a pair of 125a alternators in parallel, and pairs of ginormous wire in parallel, again IIRC, he rarely saw over 150a charge current, and for the most part, significantly less than that, so I doubt he's so much into overkill on his current truck setup.

Based on my experience, Tiger Adventure Vehicles went to using Blue Sea ACR's with a single run of 1/0 AWG. The results were functionally the same and the cost was lower. You can use the voltage drop calculator and compare a single 1/0 AWG with 2x1/0 (or 4/0AWG) and see for yourself.

The rate of charge is determined by (among other things) the difference in voltage between the charge source and the target battery. A 50% lead acid battery has a voltage of just over 12v. (12.7v+ is considered to be "full" charge.) So if you can make 13.5v to 14v available at the start of the charge cycle, you will be off to a good start.


As the battery's voltage rises, the charge rate will drop. As it does the voltage of available will actually rise as the amp flow drop. (See dwh's many posts on this.) Or simply play with the voltage drop calculator. All other conditions (wire size, voltage, distance) remaining the same, look at the drop at, say, 100A, 75A, 50A, and 25A.

Big wires will get you a faster charge, but even a 10 AWG wire can get you to a full charge if you have enough time.

So, my rule of thumb, confirmed by several chats with the good folks at Lifeline is this:

-- High voltage/big amps to start. A 14v+ vehicle alternator will provide this assuming reasonably large wiring.

-- Lots of time to finish the charge. Solar or shore can provide this, assuming decent charge profiles.

(Side note: Most battery to battery chargers have lower outputs, generally below 50A. One reason that REDARC, at least, specs a slightly higher than normal charge voltage. This provides extra protection against voltage drop in the wiring and, within reason, you used voltage to substitute for amperage without harming the battery.) Most Sterling B2B would allow you to do the same thing.

EDITED to fix dumb typos!
 
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richie95

New member
A lot of useful information here! Thanks for your time. Im a newbie here by the way :)
Im not really into electricity stuff. I can do something simple but when it comes to cases like this for me is easier to call someone is
qualified like electrician Charleston guys. I had a case when I have made a gazebo and I needed some light to spent nice evenings there. So they conducted the wiring quite fast and without any "surprises" how sometimes happens. In general, I was satisfied. Now I can spend lovely evenings in my gazebo.
 
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