Emotion Over Logic - The AdvRovr Range Rover Sport Build Thread

[AdvRovr]

We apologize for the inconvenience. The locking tabs were originally sold separately as some people did not want them. We have now upped the price of the kit and just include them now to prevent issues in the future. As for the straps on the front of the sport, you are absolutely correct that they do not fit. When you ordered this kit in August, we hadn't fit it to our own RRS at that point to find out the issue. We are working on developing a different strap for that and will have it sent out when we get it.

Hi Erik, nice to see you on here.

• What is the ETA on the revised limiting straps? I want to get this thing on some trails soon and don't want to blow a CV in the process.
• Also, did the shorter spacers that some folks were asking about ever happen? If the straps are going to be a long time or still be a problem, I may just go with those.
• What is the ETA on the locking tabs? I asked specifically about it when I ordered the kit and the rep said it would be included, and then when I spoke to someone recently they mentioned they would send one out last week. I think I talked to you on the phone yesterday and you said they were still in production, so when can I get a hold of mine?

I wanna support you guys, because I love that you're coming up with this stuff, but it all feels a little half baked. I'm totally down to be a beta tester if I'm paying beta-test prices and go in with that expectation, but that's not the way it's advertised (or priced) on your site. If you haven't tested a product on all the applications, or fully run it through its paces, please be up front about that on the site so that we know we're not really buying something that's plug-n-play.

 

[Angelo1]

I would not buy any product or trust a company that does not do testing on the product that they make. Talk about a serious oversight.

 

[AdvRovr]

ENTRY 006: One Step Forward, Two Steps Back

Warning: I'm pretty pissed at the way things went today, so this post is a bit of a rant. But, everything here is an exact description of what occurred and what we found from experimenting.

Today, I was supposed to be elated, seeing the first big step of the build come together. Unfortunately, the Proud Rhino spacers were a total bust and will be coming back off the truck. But more on that in a minute....

Thursday night I got the new tires mounted (Cooper Discoverer AT3 275/65/18 = 32.1" true diameter). I'm thrilled with the fitment and the look of the new wheels. It does make the truck look a bit bottom-heavy, though, so I'm hoping the rack, tire carrier, etc will balance things out - whenever they arrive. The ride was much smoother even than stock ride height with stock tires. That surprised me; the Coopers are E-range tires so I expected it to be stiffer.



I only put about 150 miles after the tire mounting, but it was very comfortable over a variety of speeds and surface qualities. I got to thinking that adding the Proud Rhino spacers might even make the ride too soft by decreasing the air bag pressure further. I started thinking that maybe I shouldn't put them on since I didn't have limiting straps that would work anyway.

Boy how I wish I listened to that thought-turned-premonition. But, up on the lift she goes!



I should mention here that again, I am not trying to crap on Lucky8 and love that they're tapping this market, but here's the blunt truth: the lift kit is just not any good. The quality/fitment was lousy, and the end results even worse. It's a damn shame, because I bought this in spite of some of the known downsides, and now I wish I had listened to everyone else.

This is a list of the problems I had. I'm repeating some things from earlier just for completeness.

1. Both front spacers simply did not fit the struts. The holes were improperly spaced and we had to ream them out. We tried the old set from Zelatore's truck (which he had since removed) and they fit fine, so I don't know if it's just my set or if this whole production run had an issue.
2. Welding slag was splattered over one of the surfaces where the nuts torque down, so we had to sand that down to remove.
3. Front spacers are too tall. This is what kills ride quality and, I believe, what prevents the truck from going into access. Rears could also be a bit shorter.
4. Arrived badly dinged up, had to repaint them myself (mentioned earlier)
5. Rear limiting strap doesn't fit properly (known issue, mentioned earlier)
6. Front limiting strap impossible to fit on the Sport (mentioned earlier)

Most of those speak for themselves, so I'll focus on the spacers being too tall. We spent some time measuring each corner in different heights, and the difference in height was only 1.5cm from sitting on the bumpstops with all air evacuated to sitting at normal ride height. Even with the entire system fully deflated, there was an incredible amount of extra room around the front tire. The front could EASILY be over 1" shorter and still have plenty of room for the tire to turn in an emergency. With the truck on the bump stops, the back wheels just barely tuck into the rear wheel wells. I need to spend more time measuring, but I think the rear kit could probably be about 1/2" shorter without issues.

The spacers being too tall causes it to bottom out over every....single....bump and feels like it's on race-ready coilovers. Compounding the issue is the difference in front to rear. The front is incredibly harsh as it rebounds off the bump stops, while the rear is pretty soft since it raises up higher off the bump stops. This means the front and rear of the truck behave completely differently over bumps, and going across bumps while midcorner is downright unnerving. It was the complete opposite of what I expected and desired. I even used the Gap tool to raise it up a bit more, but didn't want to go much further without limiting straps. I expected better ride quality with the spacers on, and instead it got indescribably worse. Also, I think this is what causes the access mode failure, since the truck can barely go down at all before it's on the bump stops up front.

So now, after spending the whole morning installing them (including taking today off work!), I have to find more time to remove these things and send them back. I'm partly annoyed at myself for not listening to the people mentioning issues with this kit, but I really didn't expect a prominent company like Lucky8 to be selling something as half-assed as this kit seems to be. The truck does need some kind of spacers for emergencies, but it needs some that were actually engineered and tested to work with the truck. Selling "complete kits" that don't fit the struts, don't have functional limiting straps, and don't let the suspension do its job is really inexcusable.

/rant

Video of issue with spacer fitment on front struts:

[video]https://youtu.be/xVUfT01UstY[/video]

 

[southpier]

what's a "dev"?

 

[AdvRovr]

what's a "dev"?

Software developer.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[Longtallsally]

Did you reference the "build" that the Expo team did on one of these? I think it was well done and you may want to see how they did the lift there. Should we decide to get my wife a new car at some point in not to distant future, I may take over her RRS as I'm giving up on the Disco.

The most modification to it would most likely just be a roof rack as it's the blown version and tires and wheels are too much of a pain to deal with. That and it handles exceptional for what a tank it is and I don't see a need for much more clearance as I've got a Rubicon for when I want to no worry about tearing up a vehicle.

Cool thread. And is that a Ridgeback as the adventure mutt? We have 2 and one chewed one of the seatbelts (he's done it twice in the Jeep) so you may want to add pool noodles back there to cover the belts.

 

[A.J.M]

Interesting project and good luck with sorting the suspension issues.
One reason I stay in factory sizes. Less hassle.

Not to be that guy, but while it's great to plan mods and I've been guilty of this myself.

I would get it checked to make sure it's 100% mechanical wise.
It's at that mileage for a few of the well known wear and tear items of bushes and bearings etc to be likely coming up if they haven't been attended to.

Would also get the diffs, transfer box and gearbox oils changed as well.

 

[Victory_Overland]

I've seen enough on this thread to "learn" from other's misfortune. Sorry you are going through this, but I want to seriously say thank you for saving many of us the time, effort, and hard earned money in this decision process. Most importantly the safety factor.......I just can't get over the safety factor.

I hope there is some compensation coming your way for all you have gone through in this mess.

I for one, agree with many others, and my business is now elsewhere unfortunately after the admittance of selling an untested product. Buying factory parts off the shelf is one thing, putting something on my rig and running trails only is another. But having something untested under my 7000lb (+) rig when I'm rolling down the freeway with other people's safety and lives involved is straight criminal in my book, especially when you find out about it online, sold and not disclosed.

There's a bigger problem than just some limiting straps going on there. I would never feel comfortable or confident getting in my vehicle knowing what I know about this product right now or ever!

Off my soapbox; disheartened, but off my soapbox!

 

[zelatore]

Interesting project and good luck with sorting the suspension issues.
One reason I stay in factory sizes. Less hassle.

Not to be that guy, but while it's great to plan mods and I've been guilty of this myself.

I would get it checked to make sure it's 100% mechanical wise.
It's at that mileage for a few of the well known wear and tear items of bushes and bearings etc to be likely coming up if they haven't been attended to.

Would also get the diffs, transfer box and gearbox oils changed as well.

I think AdvRovr has a handle on the basics. The rig seems pretty solid in that department.

And I'm pretty sure he can change his own fluids if it comes to that. Pretty sure he wouldn't be in a Rover if he was paying shop rates for basic maintenance!

 

[AdvRovr]

ENTRY 007: When Backward Steps Are Actually Forward Steps

Zelatore was supposed to be on a trail run today, but I benefited from his mechanical issues and convinced my wife to let me head over to his place to pull the Proud Rhino spacers.

We spent some time doing detailed measurements to dial in what I think would be the perfect heights for a balanced ride and sufficient clearance. I'll add more on that a little later, but the gist is that the rear spacers are a pretty good height. They could be 0.5-1.0cm shorter but that could cause problems with 33s. The fronts, as mentioned before, are the ones that are way too tall for a Sport. They should be more like 2cm average height, as opposed to the current 5cm they are now.

We pulled the spacers and did a bunch more measuring the testing using the Gap tool to adjust the heights. With the truck completely on the bump stops with 32s, I could turn the front tires lock to lock and roll on level ground without rubbing. Intentionally driving over some small bumps did produce a tiny bit of rubbing the fender liners, but not much. Having just a couple cm of clearance would be perfect. Definitely don't need all 5+.

I'll post some more of the measurements and thoughts in the next couple days.

But, there's more! I spent more time looking at my spacers compared to the earlier kit that Zelatore had. Honestly, mine look like garbage in comparison. I already knew my welds were lousy, but seeing the difference to his was shocking. No splatter, no giant messy welds. Not sure why mine are so much crappier, but it doesn't give a good feel about the quality. (Mine on the left)

I also used the Gap tool to program in a little lower ride height for daily use. The rods are still in place, but dropping it a bit is good for the long commute I have. And, I programmed a setting to lift it just a bit for off-road use. Should be plenty of flexibility. Anyway, the ride home was much more enjoyable without the spacers.

@Longtallsally, yep, spent lots of time reading Chris's Expo RRS build. Also really liked the Offroving RRS. The pup was a rescue so we're not totally sure, but we think he's part Ridgeback and part other hound. Good to know about the seat belts.... He's a big chewer.

@AJM, yes, maintenance is occurring too.

@Victory, yes, the limiting straps are really just one small piece of the puzzle now. I don't mind paying for quality engineering and R&D, since I know that's a big piece of the cost of products for such a limited market. But the further I got with these, the less and less evidence of R&D I could find. It's a damn shame, because these could have been a great product with a bit more work and QC.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[AdvRovr]

I talked to Lucky8 today, and they apologized for the issues and offered a good resolution. They also are working on shorter versions, so it will be interesting to see if that comes to fruition. Obviously, I'm disappointed about the way this worked out, but I was glad they stepped up to resolve this. Owning up to mistakes and handling things well goes a long way in my book.

Nothing major happening right now on the build, but I did play with the Gap IIDtool to adjust my tire size to correct the speedometer.....which then triggered a Check Engine Light for vehicle speed sensor plausibility. :/ Hopefully that is an easy one to solve.

 

[AdvRovr]

Quick update on the CEL issue with the tire radius adjustment. Gap tech support said they didn't have much feedback or info on the issue, but they suspected the car will only tolerate so much change. The wheel speed sensors and the vehicle speed sensors all have values that match to each other, and to approximately the stock tire size speed, regardless of the instrument panel indicated speed.

So, I put my product-testing-hat back on to see what I could uncover. Thankfully, this kind of testing is much easier than pulling the air springs...LOL. Here is the email I sent Gap today, and I feel pretty comfortable with the results.

{Cliff Notes: I think 108% is the max adjustment, and 392mm setting puts the speedo exactly dead on with my GPS for Cooper Discoverer AT3 in 275/65/18 without triggering a CEL.}

Hi Patrick & Team,

Updating on the tire radius size issue from yesterday. I have a 100mi daily commute which makes testing go quickly.

My working theory is the ECU tolerates up to an 8% variance from expectation.
Original value for 2009 US Spec Range Rover Sport with 255/55/19 wheels is 364mm radius.
My new tires are Cooper Discoverer AT3 in 275/65/18: the manufacturer publishes an "actual" diameter of 32.09" = 815mm dia = 407.5mm radius. Below are the results of my testing:

Set Value: 404mm || Result: CEL On || Variance: 110.9%
Set Value: 384mm || Result: CEL Off || Variance: 105.5%
Set Value: 394mm || Result: CEL On || Variance: 108.2%
Set Value: 390mm || Result: CEL Off || Variance: 107.1%
Set Value: 392mm || Result: CEL Off || Variance: 107.7%

In the CEL On conditions above, the CEL lit within 2-10 miles of driving. So far I have about 40 miles of city and highway driving on 392mm and the test for speed sensor is complete, and there is no pending or confirmed code. I managed to hit 90mph, GPS confirmed, in one empty stretch to confirm speedometer accuracy and see if variance at higher speeds mattered. I'm feeling pretty confident about the 8% threshold but I'll let you know if this changes.

Hope that helps.

Best
Chad

 

[SteveMfr]

I only put about 150 miles after the tire mounting, but it was very comfortable over a variety of speeds and surface qualities. I got to thinking that adding the Proud Rhino spacers might even make the ride too soft by decreasing the air bag pressure further.

Hi Chad,
First: thanks for your help in checking the speedo correction. We do our best, but we are a small company and simply do not have the resources to test every feature ourselves in a reasonable time frame. Help from customers such as you in this regard is gold for us. :bowdown:

Just as an aid in assessing and dialing in your suspension: when you lower an air-sprung vehicle you are actually not decreasing the pressure in the airbags and when you raise the vehicle you are not increasing the pressure. You are, of course, bleeding air off to lower and adding higher pressure air to raise (if it wasn't higher pressure than the air in the airbags it wouldn't go in ). You are changing the volume of air in the bags. But once you have finished raising or lowering the vehicle, the pressure returns to the same as prior. The reason for this is that the vehicle weight has not changed and the force needed to lift that weight is therefore the same. Stupid analogy: you are exerting the same upwards force on a beer regardless if that beer is at chest height or in front of your mouth. Same as the airbags.

There are actually 2 factors that can affect the stiffness of the suspension: the first are shock absorbers with variable rates depending on the piston position (which I am quite sure LR never implemented) and the second is air bag volume. You can easily visualize this by imagining extreme examples: if you were to take an air spring the size of a waterbed and poke your finger 6" into it, you'd hardly feel a difference in resistance over the entire 6". This is because the volume of air is so large in relation to the decreased volume of the air spring that the pressure in the air spring would hardly change at all. If, on the other hand you took a 1/4" diameter syringe and started with the same pressure as in the matress-sized air spring, you'd likely have a tough time getting anywhere near 6" of piston movement because you'd be changing the volume, and thus increasing the pressure drastically.

Arnott, an aftermarket air suspension component manufacturer, had varying diameters on the pistons that the airbags fold over onto when lowered to try to maximize this effect for their RR Classic/ RR P38 air springs. I honestly don't know how much difference this made in reality, but everyone swore by them...

As far as the spacers go, 5cm sounds like a lot. I've not played much with a RRS, but I know from my RR L322 that anything above 35-40mm is really pushing it. Ideally you'd want spacers of the same thickness as the lift you are doing so that the shocks/springs are close to the same operating range as stock. I know that as of about 30mm lift on the L322, the lack of droop on the struts in front becomes very noticeable at off road height - and some 20-25mm spacers would help here. At 50mm of lift, though, not just the drivetrain components but also the control arms are at such extreme angles that the suspension is not really working as designed anymore. IMO the only way to do a lift that large properly on a RRS is by doing a body lift on the frame (subframes on the L322). Wasn't there a guy in Colorado doing this? All that said: this is not what you want in a vehicle that you are putting a lot of miles on - be it overlanding or simply commuting. Rock crawling.. maybe. Car shows... yep.

 

[colmeir2]

Resurrrectng this thread from the dead, any updates on the RRS AdvRovr?