Engine decision 20R/22R

[austintaco]

I have to make a decision on my engine in my 84 4runner. The previous owner had a rebuilt ATK put in and it now has about 30K on it. Its a carb'd 22r with a weber 38, a mild cam, header, and custom exhaust. It ran great, with only some minor adjustments to the carb for cold weather.
Another shop damaged the spark plug threads, so now I am having to have this head go to the shop for some timeserts put in. While its apart, I have the option to changes some things and I have been researching the othe sites (Marlin, YT, CT, TTORA, Toysport, LCengineering, etc..) and I think I have gathered most of the opinions out there, but most of the replies were from people that used their rigs for mostly crawling duties.

Has anyone on here built a 20r/22r hybrid motor(20r head on a 22r block)? Would you recommend it for expedition use (longer hwy travel)? What would you do differently? Did you have to run premium gas?

I just need a real world opinion on the swap. Thanks!

 

[java]

if anything i would look at getting the EFI stuff. or you could go the LPG route, but i dont think thats as good of an option for expo use. sorry no real world 20/22 hybrid experience but my 22re head was fine.

 

[austintaco]

I have the early block 84, so I would have to use EFI stuff from the same era Celica. The dual propane conversion is intriguing, and that might come down the road, but not now.

If I can get a little bit more out of the engine for mid to upper rpm's(which is what the 20r head is supposed to do), I would be happy.
Now, a 3.4 swap would be where its at.

 

[Scotsmanspride]

I know this is probably not what you would like to hear but real world.... Get yourself a 22RE. SOOO much more reliable in my honest opinion. I have run both a 22r and also the re. A friend had the franken 20 22 combo and it worked alright. I know it is probably way out of the question but you could also look into toyota diesel conversions out of East texas. Motors are coming out of australia and have heard nothing but good things.

 

[ntsqd]

From memory, so it could be wrong, the 20R head will not accept an EFI intake. That is my direction for my own 22R. If turbo-truck's engine doesn't end up in Patch then I'll be converting to the stock EFI system that I bought off of 'Mud.

Define "mid to upper RPM"? This 22R of mine starts really wanting to pull at 3k and pulls up well past 4k though I rarely take it there. I'm not a big fan of reving something just for the sake of making high rpm HP without spending the time & money on re-engineering the bottom end parts. Within the stock redline these engines are pretty hard to kill. I would concentrate on making the desired power within that range.

 

[austintaco]

I know this is probably not what you would like to hear but real world.... Get yourself a 22RE. SOOO much more reliable in my honest opinion. I have run both a 22r and also the re. A friend had the franken 20 22 combo and it worked alright. I know it is probably way out of the question but you could also look into toyota diesel conversions out of East texas. Motors are coming out of australia and have heard nothing but good things.

Diesel or 3.4 would just be dreaming. As it is, this might be my last bit of money spent for awhile, or at least until after the wedding. The block is staying in the engine, so my only options are to put it back together with the 22r head or find a 20R head and have it port and polished with bigger valves. EFI would be nice, but guys with EFI trucks that drove my truck or drove with me, couldn't believe how well my current setup worked. The only time I wished it had more would be on the highway and hitting that 70 + MPH mark.
I don't think EFI would get me there, not without having a completely rebuilt 22re from LC engineering or DOA, and I don't have $5K to spend on that. If I did, I would be swapping in the 3rz, a 3.4, or a diesel.

 

[austintaco]

From memory, so it could be wrong, the 20R head will not accept an EFI intake. That is my direction for my own 22R. If turbo-truck's engine doesn't end up in Patch then I'll be converting to the stock EFI system that I bought off of 'Mud.

Define "mid to upper RPM"? This 22R of mine starts really wanting to pull at 3k and pulls up well past 4k though I rarely take it there. I'm not a big fan of reving something just for the sake of making high rpm HP without spending the time & money on re-engineering the bottom end parts. Within the stock redline these engines are pretty hard to kill. I would concentrate on making the desired power within that range.

Yeah, 20R's wont take EFI and my engine would need to have the first gen style of EFI that was in celicas before 85. Besides, the Weber 38 is really simple, and I can run it without any emissions equipment. It only ran bad once, when the temp got really cold, but that also happened after buying some real bad gas when I was in the middle of nowhere wheeling.

I am not an RPM whore by any means. If anything, I baby my stuff so it will last. With the 20R head swaps, most have said that you might give up some low end for some middle and upper end power. That's what I want. The 22r is never going to be V6, and the truck has everything I need in the lower rpm's, so I would give up a small amount to get it back when I am cruising on the highway and see a hill ahead.

I wouldn't even contemplate any of this, but I am having to have the head off, so now is the time. If I can get 10 hp between the head swap and intake, I will be happy.

 

[Scotsmanspride]

I ran an LC Engineering turbo setup about 8 years ago and it was nuts. The stand alone fuel management system was nuts. I loved it and it made an insane amount of horsepower. But it was in a dropped and tubbed 85 standard cab.

 

[austintaco]

Yeah, I found some of those while searching for info on the net. It's crazy how much HP they can make. There is a guy here in Austin that works with turbo toyota trucks and he had the fastest 1st gen 4runner I had ever been in. It was fast for a car, let alone a 4runner with a 4banger!
I just don't have the time, money, or the tuning skills to do something like that.

 

[java]

so why not just pick up a used 22re to drop in, they can be had cheap and in good shape. mine was 600$ with 60k on a rebuild with papers.
IMHO the 22re is one of the best motors ever made. simple easy to work on, my truck was stolen with a bad oil pump, they drove it 3000 miles with 0 oil pressure, till a rod breaing went. that has got to say something about the engine!

 

[Grim Reaper]

I'd walk form the 20 and early 22. There are plenty of 22R laser blocks to be had for cheap at the junk yard. I'd start from there. heads for those are getting scarce.

If you want to inject it then see if you can find a fresh truck in the yard and pull the complete electrical systems and cluster. Even better yet see if you can buy a wrecked runner because the RE came with the stronger W56. Use your case to make a crawler.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Yeah, I found some of those while searching for info on the net. It's crazy how much HP they can make. There is a guy here in Austin that works with turbo toyota trucks and he had the fastest 1st gen 4runner I had ever been in. It was fast for a car, let alone a 4runner with a 4banger!
I just don't have the time, money, or the tuning skills to do something like that.

I have a Super Charged Previa 170hp stock with 6PSI. I am hearing that people are converting them to Turbo and running them at 12-15psi. I have heard one has put down 260hp to the back wheels and it is SO easy to convert. Can you say sleeper :smiley_drive:

 

[austintaco]

Just when I think I have made a decision, something else comes to mind. I was pretty much set on just having the current head port and polished and retapped and just putting it back on and maybe adding an offy intake to it.

Like DaveInDenver said, I have read too many posts about 22re's being finicky, and my setup now is pretty clean, and its only acted up once. I actually have two project trucks in my backyard, an 85 4runner and an 85 ex cab SR5, but neither one runs and I wouldn't trust either of them in my truck without a complete rebuild. I bought them because I thought I would either build a crawler out of one, and/or convert mine over to EFI, but now I realize that I can't use their EFI anyway. Besides, the early EFI engines only put out 9 more HP than the Carb'd version. However, the later EFI's were putting out 116 I think.

I guess if I could find the celica EFI stuff, now would be the time to go for it.
Thanks for the advice, and I am taking it all in consideration before I make my decision.

 

[4Rescue]

Just when I think I have made a decision, something else comes to mind. I was pretty much set on just having the current head port and polished and retapped and just putting it back on and maybe adding an offy intake to it.

Like DaveInDenver said, I have read too many posts about 22re's being finicky, and my setup now is pretty clean, and its only acted up once. I actually have two project trucks in my backyard, an 85 4runner and an 85 ex cab SR5, but neither one runs and I wouldn't trust either of them in my truck without a complete rebuild. I bought them because I thought I would either build a crawler out of one, and/or convert mine over to EFI, but now I realize that I can't use their EFI anyway. Besides, the early EFI engines only put out 9 more HP than the Carb'd version. However, the later EFI's were putting out 116 I think.

I guess if I could find the celica EFI stuff, now would be the time to go for it.
Thanks for the advice, and I am taking it all in consideration before I make my decision.

The difference betweeen my RE and my mates 22R is noticable IMO. His is in a lighter P/U too and mines in a 1st Gen 4Runner so I have a weight disadvantage but it still pulls better and get's better milage. If you're already going to have to re-do ONE of these motors to get a running engine, I'd use a later RE. It's not going to be a massive difference but there is a notable performance gain stock vs stock over the 22R.

Cheers

Dave

 

[austintaco]

Update:
When they checked my head, it had a very small crack. It wasn't leaking, but I am not putting the money into it to have it leak in a year. I found another 82-84 22r head that I am going to use and have it built with one size bigger valves.
The block is good, and for me to put a 22re in, I would have to find a good reliable late model engine, swap that in, and I think I have to either swap trannys or I should.

If I decide to go EFI, I will source the parts from an early Celica or I might do the dual fuel propane. That system is very intriguing, but getting married has to happen first.

Thanks for all the info.