Super Doody
Explorer
Taz said:
In my review I noticed the only real difference between the two is that D60 has 4 extra MP. D40 actually shoots 2.5fps while the D60 shoots at 3 fps.
Entry Level SLR Camera
- Thread starter Super Doody
- Start date
In my review I noticed the only real difference between the two is that D60 has 4 extra MP. D40 actually shoots 2.5fps while the D60 shoots at 3 fps.
Super Doody
Explorer
This is a pretty good side by side comparision of all digital cameras:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp
When usually buy "toys", I usually go for more quality and dont mind spend a little more.
I'm think for my purposes, the D40 may suffice and its such a good deal right now. The only draw back is its 6 MP.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp
When usually buy "toys", I usually go for more quality and dont mind spend a little more.
I'm think for my purposes, the D40 may suffice and its such a good deal right now. The only draw back is its 6 MP.
PhoenixGSU
Observer
You can get the Canon Rebel XTi (10 mp is more than you will really ever need) for 600$ off amazon. If you want something a little more durable id get 20D or 30D but they are 8mp. You can get a pretty good lens for 400$. I bought a 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM for my walk around lens for less than that.
Wanted to add, always buy the body separate from the kit lens. Kit lenses usually suck. Edit
Wanted to add, always buy the body separate from the kit lens. Kit lenses usually suck. Edit
H2O_Doc
Adventurer
Don't forget you need keep in mind the number of actuations that the camera is rated for (the number of photos you can take before the shutter fails). I'm not sure of the ratings anymore, but I shoot ca. 40k frames a year and I know I'd use up an XTi pretty quick. Having said that, I do keep one as a back up should both my MKIII's fail.
Photog
Explorer
Don't get sucked into the megapixel race. 8Mp is enough. I don't think there is a currently-available DSLR with less than 8Mp.
For professional shooters, there are some circumstances where more Mp are necessary (e.g. - large groups of people, printed at 20"X24" and up).
If it was my first camera, and I was going to keep the price down, I would find a good camera shop that buys/sells used gear. I would start with a new or used top-end lens, and a used DSLR body.
Check the body and lens for external marks, and ask yourself, "what would I have done, to make those kind of marks?" Rub marks are OK. Deep scratches and small dents means "rough treatment" in general. Check the number of frames fired from the camera. Depending on your picture volume, you will want to have 50k to 100k frames left in the shutter. If you purchase a used lens, make sure it produces sharp images, is clean inside, and functions properly.
Now you have a professional lens, and good body. Later on, you may ad another lens, and eventually upgrade the body.
Canon Body - 20D, 30D
Canon Lens' - Any of the "L" lenses that meet your needs.
Nikon Body - D70s, D80, D200(weather sealed)
Nikkor Lens' - 24-70mm f2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 18-200mm VR (may be a little slow in dark situations)
Pentax also makes some great lenses in the SMC group (f2.8).
Some of their bodies are weather sealed, and also have the anti-shake built into the body.
The "kit lenses" are usually junk. Sometimes you can get a Pro Kit, that has a good lens, as listed above.
If you buy a low end body and low end lens (new), just to save some $, you don't have either a good lens or body. Now you will end up replacing both, later. This does not save you any money.
This is just my perspective on camera money, for general use. My Pro gear is always purchased new, or from a known owner; but that is business equipment.
Anyway - just my 2 cents worth of wisdom.:ylsmoke:
For professional shooters, there are some circumstances where more Mp are necessary (e.g. - large groups of people, printed at 20"X24" and up).
If it was my first camera, and I was going to keep the price down, I would find a good camera shop that buys/sells used gear. I would start with a new or used top-end lens, and a used DSLR body.
Check the body and lens for external marks, and ask yourself, "what would I have done, to make those kind of marks?" Rub marks are OK. Deep scratches and small dents means "rough treatment" in general. Check the number of frames fired from the camera. Depending on your picture volume, you will want to have 50k to 100k frames left in the shutter. If you purchase a used lens, make sure it produces sharp images, is clean inside, and functions properly.
Now you have a professional lens, and good body. Later on, you may ad another lens, and eventually upgrade the body.
Canon Body - 20D, 30D
Canon Lens' - Any of the "L" lenses that meet your needs.
Nikon Body - D70s, D80, D200(weather sealed)
Nikkor Lens' - 24-70mm f2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 18-200mm VR (may be a little slow in dark situations)
Pentax also makes some great lenses in the SMC group (f2.8).
Some of their bodies are weather sealed, and also have the anti-shake built into the body.
The "kit lenses" are usually junk. Sometimes you can get a Pro Kit, that has a good lens, as listed above.
If you buy a low end body and low end lens (new), just to save some $, you don't have either a good lens or body. Now you will end up replacing both, later. This does not save you any money.
This is just my perspective on camera money, for general use. My Pro gear is always purchased new, or from a known owner; but that is business equipment.
Anyway - just my 2 cents worth of wisdom.:ylsmoke:
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I've got an xti and couldn't be happier with it (Macro, Landscape, Portraits, Wildlife) and it's price (Craigslist-someone changed their mind and went with a point and shoot) - the current kit lense (18-55 usm) that comes with it is much better than previous versions of the same lense.
The lense is truely the most important part of getting what you want out of any camera. If you find yourself looking for a canon lense, you can look at hundreds of reviews on lenses, but they are all tainted by the user's photographic needs. Try using the MTF charts on Canon's site - here's a guide to how the charts work - It's a long read, but within it will show you how to tell if one lens is better than another. It's way better than just picking one and living with the one you picked.
B&H Photo has some of the best prices around - most often beating Best Buy, Target, Walmart, Ritz etc.
The lense is truely the most important part of getting what you want out of any camera. If you find yourself looking for a canon lense, you can look at hundreds of reviews on lenses, but they are all tainted by the user's photographic needs. Try using the MTF charts on Canon's site - here's a guide to how the charts work - It's a long read, but within it will show you how to tell if one lens is better than another. It's way better than just picking one and living with the one you picked.
B&H Photo has some of the best prices around - most often beating Best Buy, Target, Walmart, Ritz etc.
Photog
Explorer
ThomD said:
Thom, you bring up a good point for discussion. This is a commonly held belief, created by company marketing.
The cameras are a little high-tech; but they don't do much more than expose a sensor to light, and convert it to a digital file. You can add a bigger display on the back, or add yet another White Balance setting, or some other Bell or Whistle, and it still just exposes a sensor to light. Some of the newer image processors are helpful; but are they worth the cost in dollars or in robustness?
Each person needs to determine what they need from a camera. If you are going to shoot in dim light most of the time, and need something with very low noise; then plan on spending big bucks on the latest Pro camera. If you are going to shoot Basketball games for Sports Illustrated, then plan on getting a Pro camera that shoots 6 to 10 frames per second. Maybe it needs to be weather tight. Etc, etc.......
What is it about an XTi that captures images better than a 20D or 30D? More Mega Pixels is not a good answer. The more MP they stuff onto the same size chip, the more difficult it is to creat a good quality image. Digital noise gets worse, halos get worse, color accuracy drops off, etc.. Don't fall for it.
(Again, this is just my opinion) The reason I have recommended the Canon 20D & 30D, and Nikon D70s (only 6 MP), D80 & D200, is: their technology is current enough, the MP is high enough, and they are built stout (unlike the XTi & D40x). The 20D, 30D & D200 are metal body cameras. The D70s & D80 are beefy plastic around a metal box core (similar, but stonger than the D40x).
To compare this to a vehicle, would be to prefer buying a used 80 or 100 series Toyota Land Cruiser, over a new Toyota Highlander with the latest bells & whistles. The Cruiser may not be the latest technology; but it is built better, and will still get the job done. After using it for a while, you may determine what you really need is a Unimog. Aren't you glad you didn't spend $28k on a Highlander? Re-sell the Cruiser, and get a Unimog.
After using the 30D for a year or two, you have determined that you need a 5D to meet your needs. Aren't you glad you didn't spend $800 on a new XTi, that is now only worth $200 to resell? OR, you find the 30D is easy to handle, gets the job done, and keeps on ticking.
If you have used SLR & DSLR cameras, and know the differences between the different options, controls and viewfinders; and you believe that an XTi or D40x is exactly what you need, then buy it, and an good lens. They will get the job done, and should last a long time, if cared for properly. But; if you are new to the SLR/DSLR world of photography, and you are trying to keep costs down, I recommend the tougher cameras, especially if it is going to be an expedition camera.
Michael Slade
Untitled
:iagree:
Listen and learn.
Listen and learn.
bajasurf
Explorer
20d
I looked at Adorama and checked their used site and see a couple of Canon 20D's for sale. A demo 20D has an asking price of $550. That seems quite reasonable to me and I would like to have a rugged camera. Since I live in Baja and am subject to a lot of dust (Baja 500) and moving up from a Panasonic DMC-FZ7 I need/want a somewhat professional outfit. I like to get close to the action but not so much with a long zoom. I want to feel those trophy trucks gong by me and not leave my camera on a tripod and use a remote to take the photo. The vehicles were not the danger to those cameras on tripods it was me almost falling over them. Call me stupid and many have. So if I grab a 20d or 30d how about a recommendation for an all around good glass lens. A 28mm(same as a 35mm slr lens) with a little tele in it. Thanks for you input and help, George Lanning
I looked at Adorama and checked their used site and see a couple of Canon 20D's for sale. A demo 20D has an asking price of $550. That seems quite reasonable to me and I would like to have a rugged camera. Since I live in Baja and am subject to a lot of dust (Baja 500) and moving up from a Panasonic DMC-FZ7 I need/want a somewhat professional outfit. I like to get close to the action but not so much with a long zoom. I want to feel those trophy trucks gong by me and not leave my camera on a tripod and use a remote to take the photo. The vehicles were not the danger to those cameras on tripods it was me almost falling over them. Call me stupid and many have. So if I grab a 20d or 30d how about a recommendation for an all around good glass lens. A 28mm(same as a 35mm slr lens) with a little tele in it. Thanks for you input and help, George Lanning
Hi Photog,
Generally a good post, but there are differences between 20D/30D/40D beyond just MP. I'm a pretty serious amateur, so I know better than to get sucked into the MP race. (Loved my 1D - the sharpest 4 MP you'll ever see).
Focus speed/sensitivity & higher ISO are pretty big changes since the 20D came out. (I never shot with the 20D so I have to base this on what I've read.) While I doubt I'll ever use the Live view on the 40D, the "My menu" (or whatever it is called) does make it a lot easier to get to mirror lock up.
Without knowing a person's price sensitivity (did the OP say, I don't remember), a few hundred bucks more for a new with warranty camera would be my recommendation. As everyone has said, the real money is the lenses (and flash and tripod and ball head and bags, etc, etc).
BTW, I did look at the current Rebel - just long enough to laugh at how flimsy it felt. Definitely would NOT recommend that.
Generally a good post, but there are differences between 20D/30D/40D beyond just MP. I'm a pretty serious amateur, so I know better than to get sucked into the MP race. (Loved my 1D - the sharpest 4 MP you'll ever see).
Focus speed/sensitivity & higher ISO are pretty big changes since the 20D came out. (I never shot with the 20D so I have to base this on what I've read.) While I doubt I'll ever use the Live view on the 40D, the "My menu" (or whatever it is called) does make it a lot easier to get to mirror lock up.
Without knowing a person's price sensitivity (did the OP say, I don't remember), a few hundred bucks more for a new with warranty camera would be my recommendation. As everyone has said, the real money is the lenses (and flash and tripod and ball head and bags, etc, etc).
BTW, I did look at the current Rebel - just long enough to laugh at how flimsy it felt. Definitely would NOT recommend that.
Photog
Explorer
Thom,
You make some very good points, and I hope you didn't feel that my last post was aimed directly at you. You made an opening for a good issue to cover. It's always good to have a straight man.:luxhello:
There are definitely specific improvements, as the cameras progress, that are desirable. The processors are improving, and the noise level is coming down, allowing them to have higher ISO options. Faster focus is nice, and the better lenses make that work better also. Mirror lock-up is a pain to set, even on my 1DMkII. I had to use mirror lock-up again, just this week. Why don't they just give us a spare, programmable button?
Most folks don't know what mirror lock up is, or why to use it. Fast focus is nice; but the difference in focus time (with an L lens) between a 20D, 30D, 40D, is not going to be a deal breaker at the "Entry Level" requested by the OP.
I have considered picking up a used 20D or 30D, as a beater for the backroads; but then my G9 would be upset. I may still do that, if the right deal comes along.
You make some very good points, and I hope you didn't feel that my last post was aimed directly at you. You made an opening for a good issue to cover. It's always good to have a straight man.:luxhello:
There are definitely specific improvements, as the cameras progress, that are desirable. The processors are improving, and the noise level is coming down, allowing them to have higher ISO options. Faster focus is nice, and the better lenses make that work better also. Mirror lock-up is a pain to set, even on my 1DMkII. I had to use mirror lock-up again, just this week. Why don't they just give us a spare, programmable button?
Most folks don't know what mirror lock up is, or why to use it. Fast focus is nice; but the difference in focus time (with an L lens) between a 20D, 30D, 40D, is not going to be a deal breaker at the "Entry Level" requested by the OP.
I have considered picking up a used 20D or 30D, as a beater for the backroads; but then my G9 would be upset. I may still do that, if the right deal comes along.
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Good point Photog, I forgot we started with the question of "Entry Level".
You, me and Michael Reichmann can whine about no ML button, but Canon don't care.
Here's where I'm at - had a 1D2, a handful of "typical" L lenses, filters, flash, etc, - the whole kit. One burgulary later I had nada. I went for about a year on a Pany FZ-50. Tried to live without an SLR, but got tired of the noise. OTOH, that long reach was addicitve and for outside, good light shots, it is hard to beat the convenience.
I decided the 1 series was too heavy, so now I'm trying an experiment in minimalism - 40D, 70-300DO and 17-55 (and the flash and the tripod, etc,etc). We'll see how it goes this summer. I miss my 70-200/2.8 I loved that lens because it was like parting the Red Sea in a crowd: Mom to daughter - "Honey step aside so the photographer can get a good shot."
You, me and Michael Reichmann can whine about no ML button, but Canon don't care.
Here's where I'm at - had a 1D2, a handful of "typical" L lenses, filters, flash, etc, - the whole kit. One burgulary later I had nada. I went for about a year on a Pany FZ-50. Tried to live without an SLR, but got tired of the noise. OTOH, that long reach was addicitve and for outside, good light shots, it is hard to beat the convenience.
I decided the 1 series was too heavy, so now I'm trying an experiment in minimalism - 40D, 70-300DO and 17-55 (and the flash and the tripod, etc,etc). We'll see how it goes this summer. I miss my 70-200/2.8 I loved that lens because it was like parting the Red Sea in a crowd: Mom to daughter - "Honey step aside so the photographer can get a good shot."
