Espar Airtronic and Webasto Air Top
- Thread starter dzzz
- Start date
Don
Here is our web site. We do a little of everything but Espar is 75% of what we do. We have been in business for yourself for 12 years and Espar master distributor of the last 10 years. We are responsible for the Espar Hybrenator heater system. We manufacture the controller for that unit. We also sell the same type of system called Rite-Temp. When it comes to heating with coolant we have done a lot. We deal with air heat as well but you just can't heat everything with air.
We are a one man show so we don't have time to do a lot of web work. For the past weeks until about May we are full throttle with the Espar side of your business.
If you need parts or heaters give us a call.
Greg
http://www.lubricationspecialist.com/
Hi
Just to clarify where I was coming from, regardless of who gets bigger sales from which market area, is that diesel powered heating suffers with altitude, and diesel fuelled anything suffers with cold to a greater or lesser extent. They would be happiest at low level, so of course in a boat or truck since there can't be that many truckers sleeping at high altitude so these are its target market, but a camper built for as many conditions as feasible could be a very different case.
My Espar without any altitude compensation totally clogged up in 3 weeks spent at 920m, and its supposed to be fine up to 1000m. It was at the time only used for hot water, so wasn't run for prolonged periods on a low setting. (Do Espar give a system fluid capacity for each model?) So if it won't run correctly within that range I am loathe to spend more money on either method of adjustment for up to 2000m, since whenever I camp above that then my main source of heat may not work well if at all.
Building an all season camper, happy up to a fair altitude, and wanting engine preheat when the engine and diesel supply may struggle after a freezing night, a petrol fired Espar seems a positive choice, with fewer reasons for it to not work at height and when cold. I'm thinking of running hot pipes in the battery tray and along fuel lines sharing their insulation, and using my small genny to run mains voltage heating pads under the fuel tank.
There seems a reasonable concensus that a diesel fired cooker is a top choice for boating but not so ideal in an RV, and I don't see why the same argument doesn't also hold true with heating. Buying electric compensation for diesel at that altitude is a half way step to what a petrol one would give you from the word go surely, so a better choice to my mind for a global camper?
And you may as well buy two so you know you have the spare part when it does go wrong miles from anywhere!
Just my 2p, I'll leave you be now
Jason
What is or means of controlling the fuel pump at altitude? We have many units that run high altitude on a daily bases and don't soot up. Thats because the fuel is being controlled very well and they are sized correct and run flat out most the time. As for a diesel fueled anything not running well at high altitude I just don't see it if the system is designed correctly. I'm 54 and have been running diesels most of my life and have not seen all the issues you are talking about on a well designed system. Yes you get less heat as you go up in altitude but so does every other heater. The high altitude compensator has been tested at Pikes Peak, I know the engineer for Espar personally and he told be it ran well up at that altitude. However you did not have near the capacity either.
You say or heater was not run for prolonged periods at low heat, but if it was used only for hot water it most likely never ran long enough at any setting.
As for the diesel stove it would work well too if they had some sort of adjustment. The Walls brand I've did not have such adjustment. So you are not comparing apples to apples between a boat at sea level and and RV at altitude.
In a hydronic system you need a minimum of a 2.5 gallon system. 1. this will keep the system from short cycling (off& on) which now heater likes and 2. you will not have erratic up and down swing in the heater.
Heating batteries is done all the time in large equipment and nothing says you can't do it in smaller equipment. On the North slope of Alaska its done all the time. Their are battery heaters already available in different sizes.
If the fuel is treated you should not have to worry about much heat. We do he fuel on over the road trucks using the coolant heater. As for the fuel jelling going to the Espar we have a heater available that screws onto the pump and heats the fuel as its going through. The problem with fuel jelling going to the Espar is not in the line its at the pump. So if you can keep the pump warm and the fuel thats going through it warm you will have not have jelling issues.
As I have said before design is everything, next is a proper installation. 90% of all issues usually go back to a bad installation.
Greg
You say or heater was not run for prolonged periods at low heat, but if it was used only for hot water it most likely never ran long enough at any setting.
As for the diesel stove it would work well too if they had some sort of adjustment. The Walls brand I've did not have such adjustment. So you are not comparing apples to apples between a boat at sea level and and RV at altitude.
In a hydronic system you need a minimum of a 2.5 gallon system. 1. this will keep the system from short cycling (off& on) which now heater likes and 2. you will not have erratic up and down swing in the heater.
Heating batteries is done all the time in large equipment and nothing says you can't do it in smaller equipment. On the North slope of Alaska its done all the time. Their are battery heaters already available in different sizes.
If the fuel is treated you should not have to worry about much heat. We do he fuel on over the road trucks using the coolant heater. As for the fuel jelling going to the Espar we have a heater available that screws onto the pump and heats the fuel as its going through. The problem with fuel jelling going to the Espar is not in the line its at the pump. So if you can keep the pump warm and the fuel thats going through it warm you will have not have jelling issues.
As I have said before design is everything, next is a proper installation. 90% of all issues usually go back to a bad installation.
Greg
Last edited:
dzzz
™
Diesel heaters are very popular in the western U.S. on commercial vehicles. 2000m is a modest elevation. I'm sure a heater can be setup to run well from 0-2000m. It's in the 2000m range that some people report sooting, and some do fine.
I40 through Flagstaff is at about 7000ft I think. I'm sure there are webasto/espar installers in that area that can set up a system for truckers that run east/west. In fact I believe the next overland expo will be at about 7000 ft. A good test for who has heat
Jason, I'm not sure of your point about petrol. Aren't we going to heat with the fuel our trucks use? Kerosine is superior to diesel for these heaters. That's what I would use instead of gasoline if for some reason I wasn't burning diesel. However, I don't believe diesel is a compromise at all in cold/altitude with a well designed system and seasonal fuel blend.
I40 through Flagstaff is at about 7000ft I think. I'm sure there are webasto/espar installers in that area that can set up a system for truckers that run east/west. In fact I believe the next overland expo will be at about 7000 ft. A good test for who has heat
Jason, I'm not sure of your point about petrol. Aren't we going to heat with the fuel our trucks use? Kerosine is superior to diesel for these heaters. That's what I would use instead of gasoline if for some reason I wasn't burning diesel. However, I don't believe diesel is a compromise at all in cold/altitude with a well designed system and seasonal fuel blend.
Hi Dzzz
I have a petrol genny, and a stove for outside cooking or if the propane runs out. A heater like this as you know uses so little fuel that my current 20l jerrycan to top up a small Espar only fuel tank (as I've seen fitted in caravans in the UK) will probably be fine, 2 even is still no big deal.
Is there really no benefit from using petrol? If all heaters produce less heat at height, does petrol or diesel produce more heat for any given height? The Espar diesel altitude compensation loses 9% output per 1000m after 1400m which is a fair bit. That also suggests that the unadjustable heater should be fine to 1400m. I can't find figures for a petrol versions loss with altitude.
http://www.pfjones.co.uk/images/High_Altitude.pdf
HI LanduytG
In this download guide, page 11, its says a 5KW is suitable for my size camper. My water system is at least twice what you suggest, so I don't think the unit is under or oversized.
http://www.eberspacher.com/downloads/applications/22374_motorhome_heaters_(web).pdf
It has provided all my wife and I's hot water needs for the last 3 years full time, so its done well. (Although I should have bought two units for spares as I said) But its not as good as it should be in my opinion. We've camped in the winter in many mountain ranges, (even up to 3800m for two days), and will do OK for a few days only, beyond that it has issues and starts smoking and clogging even if still around 1000m. Did it work well at Pikes peak for a month, or just for an hour or two?
I don't understand what "However you did not have near the capacity either." means?
If the thing should work up to 1000m, then clogging at below that is unacceptable. If the system allows it to run on the timer for up to 8 hours, and the unit is as I suggested above suitable to the application, then why should it clog up? Why should its own parameters for time and heat output cause it problems (when you said before it shouldn't run on the low setting, why does it let itself do that if its going to cause problems?). If thats the case it should fire itself up occasionally onto high to burn off any soot.
The above link says the only maintainance is a 10 minute monthly burn, but you would say thats too short!
If we only heat the water tank from cold it runs on high for about 20 mins, but then cycles up and down again as heat is taken out of the coolant pipes into the calorifier. If I turned it off when the high cycle first finished the tank wouldn't be as warm as the coolant. By about 55mins it settles, so an hours burn is what is required for my system, with maybe 75% of it on high.
If the heater is supposed to drop to the low setting once its reached the top range of its coolant temperature working range (80 deg C?), that is bound to happen before the water tank is as hot, so how can the heater stay on high all the time? In that scenario, a daily 1hr burn, it clogged during a 3 week stay at 920m.
If Espar stated in an installation guide you need "x" gallons of tank to heat via "y" feet max of pipe run then maybe you could say it wasn't correctly installed, but even if they do, then how many campers have room for one specific calorifier volume deemed essential for a specific Espar model? As the guide I linked to says its OK for between 6 and 8m camper lengths then thats a broad spread of correct fitment without even going close to mentioning water volume. It was installed by one dealer, and since serviced by a second with no mention of the drastic design flaws you imply my system has.
Any ideas why diesel is fine in a tiny hose being sucked 2m to the pump, but then gels?
A stove without adjustment is the very same apple as my Espar without it, which hasn't performed as the maker says it should up to its 1000m limit. A petrol fired one would seem to answer the problems I've had more reliably and with more heat produced than an adjustable diesel model, or so I think at the moment. Adding mains powered battery, sump and tank heaters is lovely when you're running from home or work, but a compact camper running alone in remote areas doesn't have that luxury, and no space for a big, or even a medium sized, genny. My D5WS hasn't always stepped up when conditions require a cosy camper, which is missing the point a little.
Jason
I have a petrol genny, and a stove for outside cooking or if the propane runs out. A heater like this as you know uses so little fuel that my current 20l jerrycan to top up a small Espar only fuel tank (as I've seen fitted in caravans in the UK) will probably be fine, 2 even is still no big deal.
Is there really no benefit from using petrol? If all heaters produce less heat at height, does petrol or diesel produce more heat for any given height? The Espar diesel altitude compensation loses 9% output per 1000m after 1400m which is a fair bit. That also suggests that the unadjustable heater should be fine to 1400m. I can't find figures for a petrol versions loss with altitude.
http://www.pfjones.co.uk/images/High_Altitude.pdf
HI LanduytG
In this download guide, page 11, its says a 5KW is suitable for my size camper. My water system is at least twice what you suggest, so I don't think the unit is under or oversized.
http://www.eberspacher.com/downloads/applications/22374_motorhome_heaters_(web).pdf
It has provided all my wife and I's hot water needs for the last 3 years full time, so its done well. (Although I should have bought two units for spares as I said) But its not as good as it should be in my opinion. We've camped in the winter in many mountain ranges, (even up to 3800m for two days), and will do OK for a few days only, beyond that it has issues and starts smoking and clogging even if still around 1000m. Did it work well at Pikes peak for a month, or just for an hour or two?
I don't understand what "However you did not have near the capacity either." means?
If the thing should work up to 1000m, then clogging at below that is unacceptable. If the system allows it to run on the timer for up to 8 hours, and the unit is as I suggested above suitable to the application, then why should it clog up? Why should its own parameters for time and heat output cause it problems (when you said before it shouldn't run on the low setting, why does it let itself do that if its going to cause problems?). If thats the case it should fire itself up occasionally onto high to burn off any soot.
The above link says the only maintainance is a 10 minute monthly burn, but you would say thats too short!
If we only heat the water tank from cold it runs on high for about 20 mins, but then cycles up and down again as heat is taken out of the coolant pipes into the calorifier. If I turned it off when the high cycle first finished the tank wouldn't be as warm as the coolant. By about 55mins it settles, so an hours burn is what is required for my system, with maybe 75% of it on high.
If the heater is supposed to drop to the low setting once its reached the top range of its coolant temperature working range (80 deg C?), that is bound to happen before the water tank is as hot, so how can the heater stay on high all the time? In that scenario, a daily 1hr burn, it clogged during a 3 week stay at 920m.
If Espar stated in an installation guide you need "x" gallons of tank to heat via "y" feet max of pipe run then maybe you could say it wasn't correctly installed, but even if they do, then how many campers have room for one specific calorifier volume deemed essential for a specific Espar model? As the guide I linked to says its OK for between 6 and 8m camper lengths then thats a broad spread of correct fitment without even going close to mentioning water volume. It was installed by one dealer, and since serviced by a second with no mention of the drastic design flaws you imply my system has.
Any ideas why diesel is fine in a tiny hose being sucked 2m to the pump, but then gels?
A stove without adjustment is the very same apple as my Espar without it, which hasn't performed as the maker says it should up to its 1000m limit. A petrol fired one would seem to answer the problems I've had more reliably and with more heat produced than an adjustable diesel model, or so I think at the moment. Adding mains powered battery, sump and tank heaters is lovely when you're running from home or work, but a compact camper running alone in remote areas doesn't have that luxury, and no space for a big, or even a medium sized, genny. My D5WS hasn't always stepped up when conditions require a cosy camper, which is missing the point a little.
Jason
Jason
Did not know you were in the UK. You have access to more accessories than we do here in NA.
When you say you have twice the water capacity that I mentioned, do you mean you have a 10 gallon loop for the heater only. The system is essentially 2 loops, one for the heater and then the campers water. A typical camper has 6-12 gallon water system, then the Espar loop is 3-5 gallon in a 5kw unit.
It goes to low setting because if it didn't you would over heat. Now when your system gets to temperature and goes to low setting, what percentage of the time is it on the low setting?
The fuel pumps tiny check valve sticks when the fuel gets really cold, that is way heating the pump is all thats needed.
Just wondering on the combustion air intake do you have their air filter on it?
We tell all your customers to run the heater on high for 30 minutes a month. I know Espar in Europe says 10 minutes but I can say from experience that 30 is better. I have a small shop, its only 8 by 10 meters with a 3.5 ceiling and I heat it with a D5SC. The shop stays a nice 68 degrees except when it gets below zero and then it will start to lose temperature, when at -10 it will only maintain the shop at about 62 degrees. When it gets above 40 degrees outside it will start to cycle between low and high.
Greg
Did not know you were in the UK. You have access to more accessories than we do here in NA.
When you say you have twice the water capacity that I mentioned, do you mean you have a 10 gallon loop for the heater only. The system is essentially 2 loops, one for the heater and then the campers water. A typical camper has 6-12 gallon water system, then the Espar loop is 3-5 gallon in a 5kw unit.
It goes to low setting because if it didn't you would over heat. Now when your system gets to temperature and goes to low setting, what percentage of the time is it on the low setting?
The fuel pumps tiny check valve sticks when the fuel gets really cold, that is way heating the pump is all thats needed.
Just wondering on the combustion air intake do you have their air filter on it?
We tell all your customers to run the heater on high for 30 minutes a month. I know Espar in Europe says 10 minutes but I can say from experience that 30 is better. I have a small shop, its only 8 by 10 meters with a 3.5 ceiling and I heat it with a D5SC. The shop stays a nice 68 degrees except when it gets below zero and then it will start to lose temperature, when at -10 it will only maintain the shop at about 62 degrees. When it gets above 40 degrees outside it will start to cycle between low and high.
Greg
dzzz
™
Jason, Espar has two fixes for most units: The high altitude pump or the altitude sensor add on. Either would seem to be economical fixes.
You unit may well be running on the rich side if it is especially sensitive to even modest altitudes. You also likely have issues with limited water mass in the system design, as well as way too much heat output for your typical requirements.
Systems for live aboard boats need to be robustly designed. And those systems don't need to contend with altitude.
You unit may well be running on the rich side if it is especially sensitive to even modest altitudes. You also likely have issues with limited water mass in the system design, as well as way too much heat output for your typical requirements.
Systems for live aboard boats need to be robustly designed. And those systems don't need to contend with altitude.
dzzz
™
So this thread drifted back to hydronic (water) heating systems. Which may be the right solution for larger and more expensive four season campers. But it's a much more complex and expensive system.
Entry webasto (air) truck kit: $900 and an afternoon labor
Entry hydronic coolant heater: $1200 plus additional for
- external pump
- expansion tank
- valves
- hose
- controller
- anti freeze
- overflow tank
- heat exchanger
- fittings.
Plus a couple days labor.
The air system will provide faster heat. The water system may be more durable with a robust design. The water system will be heavier and take up more room. The air system with complete spares (buy two systems) would still cost less and take up less room.
Entry webasto (air) truck kit: $900 and an afternoon labor
Entry hydronic coolant heater: $1200 plus additional for
- external pump
- expansion tank
- valves
- hose
- controller
- anti freeze
- overflow tank
- heat exchanger
- fittings.
Plus a couple days labor.
The air system will provide faster heat. The water system may be more durable with a robust design. The water system will be heavier and take up more room. The air system with complete spares (buy two systems) would still cost less and take up less room.
dzzz
For $900 thats a 7500 btu unit. Not many around at that price anymore. Hydronic kits with all parts are around $1400 depending on how many heat exchangers you get. Can't disagree you have more time installing and does take up more room. Not many air kits can be bought for $900 that have the same output as the hydronic. A 13K btu air heater will cost you between $1400-$1500. So now it just comes down to installation time and complexity.
Greg
For $900 thats a 7500 btu unit. Not many around at that price anymore. Hydronic kits with all parts are around $1400 depending on how many heat exchangers you get. Can't disagree you have more time installing and does take up more room. Not many air kits can be bought for $900 that have the same output as the hydronic. A 13K btu air heater will cost you between $1400-$1500. So now it just comes down to installation time and complexity.
Greg
dzzz
™
It seems correct BTU's is a really tough call. Most systems are massively oversized for a typical night. Especially in the recreational market where 99% of the people drive away from significantly cold weather. Increasingly I think a smaller diesel system with a backup heater like a Buddy fits how most people use their campers. That also provides a diesel alternative closer to the price point of propane furnaces.
Of course if the Webasto Airtop 2000 frequently runs all night near full power that's going to be a false economy as it will have a short life. But I expect average nightly heat demand in a camper is a few tenths of a KW, which is not much even for the little units.
The D4 with the altitude kit or the Webasto EVO 3600 is an easier but considerably more expensive choice.
My concern with a $1400 hydronic installation is that it's not robust at that price point. That's using the internal pump, and has the bare minimum water volume. A system with better components is going to be well over $2000. That's still not much for an expensive camper, but it does raise the question of alternatives.
Of course if the Webasto Airtop 2000 frequently runs all night near full power that's going to be a false economy as it will have a short life. But I expect average nightly heat demand in a camper is a few tenths of a KW, which is not much even for the little units.
The D4 with the altitude kit or the Webasto EVO 3600 is an easier but considerably more expensive choice.
My concern with a $1400 hydronic installation is that it's not robust at that price point. That's using the internal pump, and has the bare minimum water volume. A system with better components is going to be well over $2000. That's still not much for an expensive camper, but it does raise the question of alternatives.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges.
If don't you want hot water in your camper for a shower and washing dishes get an air heater.
But if you want to take a hot shower get a hydronic heater.
Plus with a little additional effort you can heat the camper with the engine while you drive and preheat the engine in cold whether.
spressomon
Expedition Leader
Our KK came with the Webasto 2000. The output at 6,500' and up really takes a nose dive. Webasto told me the newer (ours is a 2008 model) 2000 were supposed to be programmable for high or low altitude but our's is not able to be switched.
The newer Airtronic 3900 and 5500 have built in automatic altitude sensing and compensation. Webasto increases the fan speed for their altitude correction means. Think turbo-lite.
Whereas Espar has an optional altitude correction unit for their units that automatically doses less diesel.
I believe the Espar is rated to 9,000' whereas the Webasto is rated a little lower...
The newer Airtronic 3900 and 5500 have built in automatic altitude sensing and compensation. Webasto increases the fan speed for their altitude correction means. Think turbo-lite
.Whereas Espar has an optional altitude correction unit for their units that automatically doses less diesel.
I believe the Espar is rated to 9,000' whereas the Webasto is rated a little lower...
dzzz
™
The Airtop 2000 (at least the current model) can be manually set for higher altitude. Technically this should be done measuring CO2 output, so it's not an end user feature. But there seem to be a practical work around, as described earlier in this thread.
The upside is to avoid clogging the heater with carbon, not increasing heat output. At 6500' it may be only running at 50-60% of rated output.
The upside is to avoid clogging the heater with carbon, not increasing heat output. At 6500' it may be only running at 50-60% of rated output.
dzzz
™
Or simply take hot water off the engine to a marine water heater. This might work fine for people who drive most days.
The purpose of looking at air heaters is lower cost and complexity. No doubt there's a good argument for hydronic heat in many larger campers.