EV acceptance is peaking

[plainjaneFJC]

Cha

Agreed. But guessing it was by design to have a Halo vehicle. Probably help absorb some of the cost for the Silverado EV etc...

Someone in our hood has one. (truck version, not SUV)
Saw it while walking the dog sitting in the driveway charging beside a BMW SUV EV. I thought it was kinda neat.
I can appreciate all the tech that it has and it's probably a blast to drive. They just aren't for me.

For around town and my commute, an EV would be fine for me. Charge at home etc.... It's the towing and camping where they would be an issue.

Once charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations and refueling / charge times are similar, I'd be open to it. Not sure how much benefit there would be to me cause I think by then charging might be as expensive as filling a truck up with gas. Time will tell I guess. I'll continue to run gas / PHEV as long as I can.

Charging that and the BMW at the same time? Their electric meter was spinning like Clark Griswolds on Christmas Eve I bet..😆

 

[Todd780]

Cha

Charging that and the BMW at the same time? Their electric meter was spinning like Clark Griswolds on Christmas Eve I bet..😆

Not sure about the Bimmer. But I could see the charging lights going on the Hummer.

 

[SimplyAnAdventure]

The right application/ use and setup definitely has a benefit but I’d bet less than .5% of the population can do the learning to figure it out. Transportation “cost” is something the average person barely considers if at all except that weekly reminder where they stop what they are doing and hand cash over for gas.

I honestly don’t think the Human Race on an individual general population level is capable of doing things like money management, transportation cost etc.

You see people who simply don’t do things because they know they can’t or don’t want to manage it that population seems to be getting smaller but is also the group that seems to do ok just because they avoided costs they probably can’t afford.

But a large population of our society doesn’t do that and just goes bankrupt basically.

Its just numbers and numbers don’t lie👍.

The everyday hybrids definitely provide a large savings to the city dwellers doing short trips with lots of traffic.

Add in plugin hybrids which really shine when you add in (correctly sized and priced solar installations) “correctly” being emphasized here!!!

Virtually NO one getting solar installed know what sort of system or equipment they have. But they’ll research the hell out of a $700 dishwasher!🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️.

I had a neighbor send me their solar quotes last week asking for feedback. Two companies were pitching systems that were probably 20% bigger than needed based on current power use history and projected future use needs and running $6+ kwh . Nutz!! Also neither would name the manufacturer type for the equipment or manufacturer warranty because they install whole sale or auction bought trash and have no idea what’s arriving at the warehouse on the installation date.

Thats like buying a dishwasher for $1500 and all your shown is a blank cardboard
box and told don’t worry there’s a dishwasher in there.

We cut our home power cost to near zero and our transportation cost to 1/4th of what we had before 2016 by simply buying a plugin hybrid and moving to a more efficient SUV.

Hybrid had a $7500 tax credit it cost less to buy a Titanium premium model Ford Fusion Energi than a basic non plugin hybrid Prius. They run the same Toyota hybrid system😆. Running EV mode locally on the short trips is a huge reduction in gas burn rate and hard wear on the old ice technology. Lots of savings there just due to the nature of how ice vs short trips is all wrong application vs EV short trips is perfectly suited for each other👍. Add in solar power offset for the EV charging (to a point). We only use 7kwh ish a day on EV use or less.

Once you get up past 10-15kwh a day in the EV the solar system size needed for both your house and say 30+ miles a day EV is getting big. Most regions currently have a 10kwh system size limit on residential permits then you step up to commercial level permits and codes making 10+kwh sized systems more costly.

Again its just numbers. Of which I’m convinced only 1-2% of the human population can mentally work out for their own use case.

I like your style. I’m a total nerd when it comes to EV’s and electricity, in fact my prior line of work was a Nuclear Plant Operator so I’m fully vested in the power thing.

I think you’re very correct that Hybrids, well plug in Hybrids actually, are the sweet spot for EV’s. I had a Hybrid RAV4 that got about 40mpg that I traded basically the day the plug in RAV4 Primes came out.

My use case is solely commuting and I would drive my Prime to work plug it in (for free) then drive it home and plug it back in at home. My total commute was about 50 miles and in the summer the work portion of the charge covered about 75% of it, in the winter it was about a 50/50 split so I was adding about 15 kWh a day 6 or 7 days a week or about 360-400 kWh of power a month at home. I pay $0.16/KW so around $55 in electricity per month to drive.

In late 2022 when Tesla dropped there prices I immediately bought a Model Y long Range and my power bill to drive went to ALMOST zero. Since I could gobble up huge power at work for free I did that and and all my other driving was covered that way. In fact I have a screen shot I will attach to this post showing my Tesla’s energy consumption. I owned the Tesla for right about a year and 18,500 miles for a total charging cost of $158, or $0.0085/mile. Only other cost was a couple tire rotations, obviously no oil changes and any “recalls” or upgrades are just handled over air, at least mine were. It was an incredibly cost efficient car to own and I loved it!!!

Well a couple weeks ago when Ford announced they wanted to basically give lightnings away I quickly jumped on an XLT, Premium, Extended Range, Max Tow, lightning for $20,000 off sticker. I quickly sold my Tesla to a buddy and bought the Lightning.

While I love being in a truck again, as a commuter it’s really not even close to as good. I took my Tesla on quite a few road trips around NE with no issues at all. Yesterday I took the Lightning from Upstate NY to CT to see my parents.

The first charger I went to was totally out of service. I kept driving and the Lightning told me when my range was getting to low to go to another charger which it displayed in the screen. Well i followed its directions to that one which ended up being a Level 2
Charger that would have taken me 8 hours to charge at lol. Pulled out my phone and searched for DC fast chargers and found an electrify America station in Albany that looked like it would fit the bill. I grabbed about 75KW there in 40 mins for a total cost of $45-ish, stopped at one more at a rest area I was passing just to see, grabbed another 17kW in 15 mins so I had a fairly full battery to get me back to some other chargers since my parents don’t have any way for me to charge yet.

The moral of this story is I am that tiny percent that EV’s make super smart financial sense (100% free charging at work). I’m also an EV nerd and just like the experience and planning and thinking about things. It’s also an absolute rip to drive. The Lightning is almost scary fast to drive.

All this to say the Rav4 prime was the best vehicle for most people. Runs on electrons most of the time and if you want to go on a trip you just use gas. No thinking requires.

The Tesla was also amazing. Tesla’s network is great and about 99% reliable. Cars are smart and super efficient, if you plan a route they’ll do the planning for you.

The Lightning is definitely more of a novelty than the other two. Its big and doesn’t fit in charging spots well, it’s very inefficient because of its size and aerodynamics, and it charges slow (150 kW’s vs the Tesla’s 250kW’s) and despite the slower charging the battery is nearly twice as big (131 vs 76 kWh) so charging time takes even longer!!!!

On Feb 29th Tesla did open there chargers to Ford vehicles with a “free” adaptor sent out to Ford owners. Well i got online the day of to request one and delivery is slated for July…. But that will help a lot.

Bottom line if people aren’t EV nerds like myself a plug in Hybrid is the best option, if you want the EV experience Tesla is unbeatable, everything about them is superior.

This Lightning is a fun toy for now but it’s definitely not an upgrade in a lot of ways. I can however tow 10k lbs and do some truck stuff with it.. so that’s nice!


The Tesla cost/ charging stats.

It is worth noting I received $9300 in total rebates on the RAV4 Prime, $8000 on the Tesla, and $8000 on the Lightning and for a DINK like me without any tax breaks besides maxing out our 401k’s it’s nice to see a little taxes come back our way.

We also have 3 other gas vehicles including an F350 and my wife works 100% remote so her Rav4 Adventure mostly just sits. So
if I was less adventurous I would just take one of those on long trips.

 

[calicamper]

I like your style. I’m a total nerd when it comes to EV’s and electricity, in fact my prior line of work was a Nuclear Plant Operator so I’m fully vested in the power thing.

I think you’re very correct that Hybrids, well plug in Hybrids actually, are the sweet spot for EV’s. I had a Hybrid RAV4 that got about 40mpg that I traded basically the day the plug in RAV4 Primes came out.

My use case is solely commuting and I would drive my Prime to work plug it in (for free) then drive it home and plug it back in at home. My total commute was about 50 miles and in the summer the work portion of the charge covered about 75% of it, in the winter it was about a 50/50 split so I was adding about 15 kWh a day 6 or 7 days a week or about 360-400 kWh of power a month at home. I pay $0.16/KW so around $55 in electricity per month to drive.

In late 2022 when Tesla dropped there prices I immediately bought a Model Y long Range and my power bill to drive went to ALMOST zero. Since I could gobble up huge power at work for free I did that and and all my other driving was covered that way. In fact I have a screen shot I will attach to this post showing my Tesla’s energy consumption. I owned the Tesla for right about a year and 18,500 miles for a total charging cost of $158, or $0.0085/mile. Only other cost was a couple tire rotations, obviously no oil changes and any “recalls” or upgrades are just handled over air, at least mine were. It was an incredibly cost efficient car to own and I loved it!!!

Well a couple weeks ago when Ford announced they wanted to basically give lightnings away I quickly jumped on an XLT, Premium, Extended Range, Max Tow, lightning for $20,000 off sticker. I quickly sold my Tesla to a buddy and bought the Lightning.

While I love being in a truck again, as a commuter it’s really not even close to as good. I took my Tesla on quite a few road trips around NE with no issues at all. Yesterday I took the Lightning from Upstate NY to CT to see my parents.

The first charger I went to was totally out of service. I kept driving and the Lightning told me when my range was getting to low to go to another charger which it displayed in the screen. Well i followed its directions to that one which ended up being a Level 2
Charger that would have taken me 8 hours to charge at lol. Pulled out my phone and searched for DC fast chargers and found an electrify America station in Albany that looked like it would fit the bill. I grabbed about 75KW there in 40 mins for a total cost of $45-ish, stopped at one more at a rest area I was passing just to see, grabbed another 17kW in 15 mins so I had a fairly full battery to get me back to some other chargers since my parents don’t have any way for me to charge yet.

The moral of this story is I am that tiny percent that EV’s make super smart financial sense (100% free charging at work). I’m also an EV nerd and just like the experience and planning and thinking about things. It’s also an absolute rip to drive. The Lightning is almost scary fast to drive.

All this to say the Rav4 prime was the best vehicle for most people. Runs on electrons most of the time and if you want to go on a trip you just use gas. No thinking requires.

The Tesla was also amazing. Tesla’s network is great and about 99% reliable. Cars are smart and super efficient, if you plan a route they’ll do the planning for you.

The Lightning is definitely more of a novelty than the other two. Its big and doesn’t fit in charging spots well, it’s very inefficient because of its size and aerodynamics, and it charges slow (150 kW’s vs the Tesla’s 250kW’s) and despite the slower charging the battery is nearly twice as big (131 vs 76 kWh) so charging time takes even longer!!!!

On Feb 29th Tesla did open there chargers to Ford vehicles with a “free” adaptor sent out to Ford owners. Well i got online the day of to request one and delivery is slated for July…. But that will help a lot.

Bottom line if people aren’t EV nerds like myself a plug in Hybrid is the best option, if you want the EV experience Tesla is unbeatable, everything about them is superior.

This Lightning is a fun toy for now but it’s definitely not an upgrade in a lot of ways. I can however tow 10k lbs and do some truck stuff with it.. so that’s nice!

View attachment 823523
The Tesla cost/ charging stats.

It is worth noting I received $9300 in total rebates on the RAV4 Prime, $8000 on the Tesla, and $8000 on the Lightning and for a DINK like me without any tax breaks besides maxing out our 401k’s it’s nice to see a little taxes come back our way.

We also have 3 other gas vehicles including an F350 and my wife works 100% remote so her Rav4 Adventure mostly just sits. So
if I was less adventurous I would just take one of those on long trips.

You can haul free power home to the house with the Lighting👍. Father inlaw built and maintained nuk plants. His last plant was in Detroit. Lots of cool stories for sure. When the Fukishama quake happened he called me said Japan was going to see the first modern nuk plant meltdown. He was on a international plant design review board that recommended against the modifications that removed the original designed cooling
backup for exactly that event. Japan power authority made the modifications to add storage capacity and basically created the exact opposite of what the original plant design had intended to survive (tsunami). Hours / days later sure enough all the hand drawn descriptions of what would happen was happening.

 

[SimplyAnAdventure]

You can haul free power home to the house with the Lighting👍. Father inlaw built and maintained nuk plants. His last plant was in Detroit. Lots of cool stories for sure. When the Fukishama quake happened he called me said Japan was going to see the first modern nuk plant meltdown. He was on a international plant design review board that recommended against the modifications that removed the original designed cooling
backup for exactly that event. Japan power authority made the modifications to add storage capacity and basically created the exact opposite of what the original plant design had intended to survive (tsunami). Hours / days later sure enough all the hand drawn descriptions of what would happen was happening.

You can haul free power home but it’s not as simple as Ford makes it sound.

You need to install there Pro charger to a dedicated 100A circuit with 3 AWG wire. You then need the kit which is another $3800 to purchase then install it. It consists of a power seeking switch, and fairly large inverter (since it runs on the DC power of the truck it does not use the trucks AC power) as well as a generator panel hooked up to selected circuits. If you wanted to switch power you turn off your existing power and give the truck a min to repower the house. Then if you leave in the morning you have to reverse it. Basically turning the power off and on to a portion of your house twice a day.

It’s a good idea durning an emergency but not practical as a money saver by any means. Also most work places that have free power are 30A level 2 chargers, I’m sure some are faster but this is mostly what I see. Charging at 30A and 240V lets me collect 7.2kW/hr or about 60kW total. Minus what I need to get back back and forth to work I can only net about 30kW per day.

I actually already have a battery backup and small generator panel in my house so for emergency’s I can just hook the truck up using its own inverter to power my essential circuits while power is down.

I was employed at a Nuke during Fukashima as well. In fact that’s the reason I left the field. They began closing plants shortly thereafter and mine was on the block. The state stepped in and saved it at the very last minute, long after I had left but my wife asked me not to return to that field. It was a great job and I worked with brilliant people.

 

[calicamper]

You can haul free power home but it’s not as simple as Ford makes it sound.

You need to install there Pro charger to a dedicated 100A circuit with 3 AWG wire. You then need the kit which is another $3800 to purchase then install it. It consists of a power seeking switch, and fairly large inverter (since it runs on the DC power of the truck it does not use the trucks AC power) as well as a generator panel hooked up to selected circuits. If you wanted to switch power you turn off your existing power and give the truck a min to repower the house. Then if you leave in the morning you have to reverse it. Basically turning the power off and on to a portion of your house twice a day.

It’s a good idea durning an emergency but not practical as a money saver by any means. Also most work places that have free power are 30A level 2 chargers, I’m sure some are faster but this is mostly what I see. Charging at 30A and 240V lets me collect 7.2kW/hr or about 60kW total. Minus what I need to get back back and forth to work I can only net about 30kW per day.

I actually already have a battery backup and small generator panel in my house so for emergency’s I can just hook the truck up using its own inverter to power my essential circuits while power is down.

I was employed at a Nuke during Fukashima as well. In fact that’s the reason I left the field. They began closing plants shortly thereafter and mine was on the block. The state stepped in and saved it at the very last minute, long after I had left but my wife asked me not to return to that field. It was a great job and I worked with brilliant people.

did my own enphase solar system setup. Skipped the batteries given cost and our use would be minimal. I did setup a basic manual transfer switch to power our secondary panel on the house which covers about 98% of the 120v stuff. The Predator 3500 has 40 hours on it since 2018. So little need the battery stuff didn’t pencil out. Eventually with better battery systems and far lower cost we might add them to stay off peak utility rates. Even my mountain cabin has only had about 2hrs of down grid time in the last 3yrs. So probably a long time till we add battery to any property.

Probably going plugin hybrid again when the 15yr old starts driving and gets moms Fusion Energi. Hoping Lincoln still has the plugin hybrid Corsair awd given that would be near perfect for the wife’s vehicle needs.

Love the EVs bought my mom the T3 LR and use it. But the types of use my wife has the full EV would pose challenges enough times a yr it just wouldn’t be ideal. If she was strictly local stuff then yeah hands down we’d be be full EV for her.

 

[lucilius]

Tough to be decisive on viability of EV and other petroleum alternatives given the interconnectedness and inconsistency of US politics, industry and infrastructure:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-auto-sector-whipsawed-by-politicians-ford-chairman-says-2024-04-17/

The US reception might be quite a bit better, and politics would likely follow suit, if EV industry prioritized long range and quick recharges, especially for "trucks/SUV" instead of admittedly impressive power and speed statistics, and perhaps best of all if the government had in place reliable, proven and substantially increased electricity generation nationwide. We seem to be dithering at best and headed in the opposite direction at worst. The US electric grid seems to be facing many inconvenient realities.
I'm likely in the minority but I'll head to the EV dealer when they make a simple pickup or SUV (just copy the 79-series LC lines) that can be parked outside in winter, has reliable year round range ~500miles, can recharge in 10-15min at convenient locations and costs the ~same (or less) as an ICE counterpart....it's neat but I don't really care if it looks ready for a scifi movie set, goes 0-60mph in <5sec or has 1000+ ft/lbs of torque.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Tough to be decisive on viability of EV and other petroleum alternatives given the interconnectedness and inconsistency of US politics, industry and infrastructure:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-auto-sector-whipsawed-by-politicians-ford-chairman-says-2024-04-17/

The US reception might be quite a bit better, and politics would likely follow suit, if EV industry prioritized long range and quick recharges, especially for "trucks/SUV" instead of admittedly impressive power and speed statistics, and perhaps best of all if the government had in place reliable, proven and substantially increased electricity generation nationwide. We seem to be dithering at best and headed in the opposite direction at worst. The US electric grid seems to be facing many inconvenient realities.
I'm likely in the minority but I'll head to the EV dealer when they make a simple pickup or SUV (just copy the 79-series LC lines) that can be parked outside in winter, has reliable year round range ~500miles, can recharge in 10-15min at convenient locations and costs the ~same (or less) as an ICE counterpart....it's neat but I don't really care if it looks ready for a scifi movie set, goes 0-60mph in <5sec or has 1000+ ft/lbs of torque.

Agree with almost all of that. I imagine the possibility of a Jerry Can being replaced by a similarly sized jump box.

But the 500 mile stat you mention? What truck has that now? Meh, practically none. My GMC Sierra 5 3 liter gets 420 on the regular (see what I did there?). More if I'm gentle, true, but...

The new Silverado is getting talked about for getting among the closest to its advertised range of 440 mi between charges. Which is nice. But it still takes a long time to charge, and I know for a fact you are correct about our grid.

 

[NevadaLover]

Agree with almost all of that. I imagine the possibility of a Jerry Can being replaced by a similarly sized jump box.

But the 500 mile stat you mention? What truck has that now? Meh, practically none. My GMC Sierra 5 3 liter gets 420 on the regular (see what I did there?). More if I'm gentle, true, but...

The new Silverado is getting talked about for getting among the closest to its advertised range of 440 mi between charges. Which is nice. But it still takes a long time to charge, and I know for a fact you are correct about our grid.

If I am easy on the skinny pedal I can get 450 out of my big block suburban, that works for me and refill is less than 10 minutes tops!

Lucilious posted a reality check for the EV movement, a lot of us here don't need a model s plaid, we need an EV that meets or exceeds current ICE truck and SUV standards, so far that is unobtainable for EV's.

 

[JaSAn]

I don't need a truck that has 500 miles range empty. I need a truck that will do about 400 miles at GVWR (~8000 lbs).

And I want a work truck, with levers and knobs and switches, not touch screens. No 6 DOF, heated, massaging seats, entertainment center, backup radar, et.al. And I need an 8' bed on about a 150" wheelbase.

My next camper truck might be my '51 or another pre-1970 pickup.

. . . I imagine the possibility of a Jerry Can being replaced by a similarly sized jump box . . .

For the same range extension as a 5 gallons of gas I would need a 20KWh battery pack (at 3 miles per KWh), weighing about 300 lbs.

 

[Dougnuts]

But the 500 mile stat you mention?
What truck has that now? Meh, practically none.

Every single F150 with 30 or 36 gallon tank, which is all of them now.

My 2018 could get 750 and my 2023 can get nearly 700.

 

[rruff]

I'm likely in the minority but I'll head to the EV dealer when they make a simple pickup or SUV (just copy the 79-series LC lines) that can be parked outside in winter, has reliable year round range ~500miles

Big vehicles with long range... this is the absolute worst application of EVs. Their niche is city commuting. A big step up in battery capacity per weight and volume will be necessary before what you want is viable.

Buy a gas vehicle with a big tank.

 

[3laine]

if EV industry prioritized long range and quick recharges, especially for "trucks/SUV" instead of admittedly impressive power and speed statistics

I agree that range and charge rate are more of a necessity than 3-second 0-60 times, especially for use cases like long distance towing, overlanding, etc.

However, range/charge rate/performance are VERY closely linked. So, it's maybe less that performance is being "prioritized" than performance is basically an inevitable byproduct of big batteries.

If you want more range and faster charging, you need a bigger battery (kWh). If you've already got a big battery allowing you to have a high input rate, then you've already got a battery capable of a high output rate, so the incremental cost to making it fast is low, and you might as well get the sales/halo benefit of it having 800hp or whatever.

Bottlenecking the battery with motors that only have 300hp won't have a huge effect on range, either, unless you're USING the 800hp. If you're just cruising down the highway, efficiency will be similar whether you technically have 300hp or 800hp, max.

Point being, EVs with huge batteries are probably going to be delivered with great performance. People want it, in general, and they're already paying for the big, high input/output battery, so they're generally going to want to pay a little more for the high performance than save a small amount for a slower version, so that's what manufacturers are likely to make.

 

[rruff]

If you want more range and faster charging, you need a bigger battery (kWh). If you've already got a big battery allowing you to have a high input rate, then you've already got a battery capable of a high output rate, so the incremental cost to making it fast is low, and you might as well get the sales/halo benefit of it having 800hp or whatever.

The motors, wiring, controllers, cooling, drivetrains, etc... need to be sized for the power output. There is some $ and weight savings for reducing the power, but not too much where range is concerned. EVs get more press and can justify a high price tag if they have insane acceleration, so... marketing.

The size of the battery and the range are closely linked with the power/energy demand... which will depend on rolling resistance (and weight) plus aero drag, with aero drag dominating at high speeds. This is why Tesla cars are very aero... though the Rivian is a little better than the Cybertruck, both are substantially more aero than typical pickups.

A big truck is inherently poor in aero, and the weight you are hauling is another important factor. If you size the battery so your EV pickup can cruise at 75mph with a 300 mi range, that's good. But hook up a big tall heavy trailer and the aero and rolling demand triples or quadruples. Why not just triple or quadruple the batteries? Cost and space and weight... which will also severely effect the performance and usability of the truck when not towing. It simply doesn't pencil out in any practical way.

By contrast a big diesel can be designed to run efficiently at it's towing "demand" level, and extra fuel for more range is a lot more space and weight efficient than batteries, and costs a pittance.

EV batteries would need to get a lot better before they'd be practical for heavy towing cross country.

 

[JaSAn]

. . . If you want . . . faster charging, you need a bigger battery (kWh) . . .

Why would a larger battery take a faster charge rate (assuming same cells; e.g. 4680 type)?
The smaller pack would have less internal resistance (shorter current path) and be better able to dissipate heat (surface area to volume).