Expo-Capable Airplane Hauler | Seeking Design Advice

[Teardropper]

Lotta experts here. That's good to know.

I built an Avid Flyer. As you know, it and the Kitfox are from the same DNA. Sold it several years ago. N716TL

I hangared it at home with the wings folded in a metal garage. I built a trailer that was kind of a big T. I would winch from the tail wheel onto the long arm of the T which was steel channel. The front wheels sat on the short arms of the T. It went down the highway in reverse.

It worked well. Some fine times including two trips to Oshkosh.

T

 

[billiebob]

Option 2: Begin with a pre-built high roof car hauler, where

I'd start here. Nothing will be more weight efficient than a factory bilt car hauler. Buy it with leaf springs, convert it to spring over, bump up to 7.50R16 tires, add some under frame tanks.

But I think it will be too big for a 4Runner. There is also a maximum frontal area to consider, and you keep adding to the list of must haves, you'll end up needing a diesel quad cab. Actually, do you need a backseat? Maybe a used F350 with a camper would be perfect. Keep the trailer light and focused on the plane only to save hanger fees. Buy a used clean low mile 4x4 regular cab, best buy out there, everyone wants a quadcab. Find the camper you'll love. New ones depreciate 50% as the drive off the lot. Heck you might find a 35 year old low mile pickup/camper package for $5K. Used car haulers are a dime a dozen. Save your money for the plane & travel.

You'll be the life of the party. A 1985 Dually Diesel with 1980s Camper towing a lifted car hauler with a kit plane.
I want to camp beside you.

You need to focus.

 

[Kors Camps]

No matter if you are within the towing capacity or not it is imprudent to tow an enclosed trailer that size with a 4 runner. The straight line areodynamics will overtax your powertrain at highway speeds and side winds and Semis will blow you around like a leaf.

Indeed. Common wisdom is to never tow even a 4x8' 300lbs utility trailer with anything less than a Kenworth W900 Semi Truck.

I'd start here. Nothing will be more weight efficient than a factory bilt car hauler. Buy it with leaf springs, convert it to spring over, bump up to 7.50R16 tires, add some under frame tanks.

But I think it will be too big for a 4Runner. There is also a maximum frontal area to consider, and you keep adding to the list of must haves, you'll end up needing a diesel quad cab. Actually, do you need a backseat? Maybe a used F350 with a camper would be perfect. ...

You need to focus.

I touched on the short wheelbase / long trailer concern earlier but only briefly. It is an important and probably limiting factor. Plenty of properly loaded travel trailers on the road with 8'x10' frontal sections hitched up to short wheelbase tow vehicles, some exceeding 20' length, and not all of them are endangering the public. Honestly, towing a 24' box is not my first or most confidence inspiring choice, but there's some utility in examining out of reach design ideas.

A 6.7L Cummins dually with a camper on top plus the 4runner & Plane in tow would be perfect. Not a reality for me though. I do like the old powerstroke or 12 and 24 valve Cummins trucks, but I can't adopt another platform that I have to wrench on every 6 months. There's a reason why I left the VW-Audi tuner scene and got a Toyota truck.

You're also right about staying focussed. A flat bed trailer with flipped leafs, a truck bed gasoline transfer tank repurposed and mounted forward on the trailer near the A-frame and beneath the airplane's tailwheel. Maybe bike rack provisions and water storage. The airplane would be wrapped to protect it from road debris in transit. The major downside would of course be lack of a protective enclosure, but it still beats airport tie-down fees.

 

[Kors Camps]

Lotta experts here. That's good to know.

I built an Avid Flyer. As you know, it and the Kitfox are from the same DNA. Sold it several years ago. N716TL

I hangared it at home with the wings folded in a metal garage. I built a trailer that was kind of a big T. I would winch from the tail wheel onto the long arm of the T which was steel channel. The front wheels sat on the short arms of the T. It went down the highway in reverse.

It worked well. Some fine times including two trips to Oshkosh.

T

Any issues with FOD, towing in that configuration? I know prop wash during run up can fling rocks and debris into to airplane, probably at greater velocity than what might be encountered on a highway... Am I over-estimating the risk of damage ?

My long term goal is to eventually home build. I'd love to I find a completed plane with a Rotax 912UL motor that will have enough life in it to later transplant into a brand new kit. Hold on to the first plane, gift it to family or maybe put it on floats some day.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Indeed. Common wisdom is to never tow even a 4x8' 300lbs utility trailer with anything less than a Kenworth W900 Semi Truck.

Hahahaha... While I know that you are being sarcastic... You are not far off from the advice given on this and other forums. People for some strange reason flat out refuse to accept the tow ratings of new trucks, especially the 1/2 tons.

 

[Teardropper]

Any issues with FOD, towing in that configuration? I know prop wash during run up can fling rocks and debris into to airplane, probably at greater velocity than what might be encountered on a highway... Am I over-estimating the risk of damage ?

My long term goal is to eventually home build. I'd love to I find a completed plane with a Rotax 912UL motor that will have enough life in it to later transplant into a brand new kit. Hold on to the first plane, gift it to family or maybe put it on floats some day.

Never any road rash.

You can kinda see the trailer in this pic.

T

 

[Kors Camps]

Dang dude, that’s a beautiful plane. I especially love the classic rounded rudder & stabilizer on those.

I saw a 1996 Avid online for $19,500 with 150 hours on a Subaru motor. Wow! Im sold on Kit Fox’s reputation for manufacture and community support. I believe Avid is out of business, so that may present some long term support limitations...I dont know, might only be a brand bias pepsi vs coke thing. I wonder now if I need to look harder at the Avid. Practically speaking for a new pilot and first time owner they’re identical airplanes.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

EDIT: Avid Aircraft has re-opened and is currently selling new kits

 

[bigskypylot]

Get a hangar or rent space in a hangar, you'll be better off in the long run.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Simons]

I think that the OP is set on trailering and not hangering, so there’s little help in repeating that suggestion. The goal from what I understand is to keep cost down due to a limited budget so buying a 3/4 ton diesel pickup to “properly” haul a 24’ enclosed trailer around also seems a little off the mark.
A car hauler or enclosed seem way heavier than you need, you’ll be hauling around more trailer than plane. For example a small Uhaul car trailer weighs about 2250lbs.
From what I understand we’re talking about some gear, a 650lbs plane and 250lbs of fuel?
If you’re capable, I vote you build your own trailer.
I like that reverse T set up mentioned/pictured a few posts back. If road rash is a real concern, then a lightweight aluminum frame could be built around it and enclosed with riveted aluminum sheeting.
That fat tire, folding wing bush plane looks like a hell of a lot of fun!
Good luck sir, cheers!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Kors Camps]

Correct.

Some gear, 650lbs of plane, 250 odd lbs of 91 octane gasoline and enough fresh water to make boondocking more "comfortable" for a week. The secondary purpose of the trailer would be some reasonable degree of weather protection. If I go with a "V-Nose" 22 or 24 foot enclosed trailer there will be indoor camping potential but this is a distant third priority.

Flying 50 hours per year in a typical Cessna 172 rental at $130/hour is $6500/year before additional fuel & cheeseburgers. Typical Flight Instruction rate adds $50-75/hour. Aviation gas is 6.50/gallon and fuel burn in a 172 is 8.5 gallons/hour. A "backcountry" capable rental plane set up for off-airport landings (if you can find one) for camping & exploration will run $180/hour or more. Typical shared hangar realestate for any plane will run $350+ per month.

What makes Experimental Light Sport Airplanes appealing to me is their comparatively low cost of operation and ownership. I'm looking at a $35k purchase price, possible even the low 20's for an aircraft that'll burn 5 gallons of 91 octane per hour, or 550 miles of range to a 26 gallon tank. Even if I were wealthy, I think it's silly to spend an order of magnitude more money on storage than I will for near/long term ownership and operation of the vehicle itself, especially given the ease of portability built into airframe. Not to mention, you can't tow a hangar from the Pacific Northwest to the Grand Canyon or Alaska...

I think that the OP is set on trailering and not hangering, so there’s little help in repeating that suggestion...

If you’re capable, I vote you build your own trailer.
I like that reverse T set up mentioned/pictured a few posts back. If road rash is a real concern, then a lightweight aluminum frame could be built around it and enclosed with riveted aluminum sheeting...

Unfortunately, I don't weld or do metal fab. I could manage framing and skinning of an enclosure but structural & load bearing work is beyond my ability. I've considered adapting an old boat trailer, or a pre-fab T-trailer but im struggling with the idea of practical minimalism

 

[Simons]

Again, the unnecessary weight of a 24’ enclosed trailer.... If camping is required, there’s lots of 4th Gen T4R sleep platform or RTT setups to be referenced here, that simplifies the trailer needs/build some more.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Titanpat57]

I'd shoot an email to this company...they can make anything...good luck

Custom Aluminum Trailers Made in the USA | Montrose Trailers

Montrose Trailers specializes in manufacturing high performance custom aluminum trailers. All trailers are made to order and are built in the USA.

www.montrosetrailers.com

 

[DesertJK]

I am a pilot, A&P, IA, aircraft owner, and hangar owner.

folding the wings can be a huge PITA, if you fold the wings, trailer it somewhere, and think you can just pop it out and fly, add a couple hours to that. I have seen a few folding wing aircraft not be rigged right when folded, trailered, and unfolded.

Please do not attempt off airport landing, especially into small strips unless you have the experience and training to do so. Reading the BCP forum and watching videos does not count. Get real training. It is not like rolling a Jeep on it's side on a trail. You botch a one way strip, you die. By experience I mean like at least 500 hours of tailwheel aircraft. If you can not put the mains on the numbers every single time regardless of wind, or familiarity with the airport, you should not be landing off airport. Find a nice grass strip near you (I can think a 6 with in 20 minutes of you) and practice a lot.


Do not buy a Rotax 582 powered anything. Get a 4 stroke 912, 914. The 582's rarely make the 300 hour TBO.

Look at the Just STOL, it is better than a Kit Fox IMO.

Look at renting aircraft, There's many of them to choose from in Bellingham.

And last, I don't know your skill level as a mechanic, but unless you know and understand everything about your aircraft, metallurgy, dope and fabric, engine, and electrics, have someone who knows these things do your condition inspection. I have seen some DIYers who saved money on their annual only to die shortly after.

If you think I am a bitter naysayer, fine. Been in aviation a long time. I'd rather you think I am a negative ass, but then remember something I said before doing something life ending. Aviation is a blast, landing on the dirt is epic every single time I do it. You will love it, but just learn to do it right and with the right equipment.

Lake Chelan is probably too far to keep a plane for you to make use of it regularly, but I have a spot for rent in my hangar. $300, heated, insulated, air compressor, some use of tools, A&P almost always there to help. Big tire bush plane oriented hangar, except for the Cirrus SR22T

David

 

[Kors Camps]

I am a pilot, A&P, IA, aircraft owner, and hangar owner.

folding the wings can be a huge PITA, if you fold the wings, trailer it somewhere, and think you can just pop it out and fly, add a couple hours to that. I have seen a few folding wing aircraft not be rigged right when folded, trailered, and unfolded.

Please do not attempt off airport landing, especially into small strips unless you have the experience and training to do so. Reading the BCP forum and watching videos does not count. Get real training. It is not like rolling a Jeep on it's side on a trail. You botch a one way strip, you die. By experience I mean like at least 500 hours of tailwheel aircraft. If you can not put the mains on the numbers every single time regardless of wind, or familiarity with the airport, you should not be landing off airport. Find a nice grass strip near you (I can think a 6 with in 20 minutes of you) and practice a lot.


Do not buy a Rotax 582 powered anything. Get a 4 stroke 912, 914. The 582's rarely make the 300 hour TBO.

Look at the Just STOL, it is better than a Kit Fox IMO.

Look at renting aircraft, There's many of them to choose from in Bellingham.

And last, I don't know your skill level as a mechanic, but unless you know and understand everything about your aircraft, metallurgy, dope and fabric, engine, and electrics, have someone who knows these things do your condition inspection. I have seen some DIYers who saved money on their annual only to die shortly after.

If you think I am a bitter naysayer, fine. Been in aviation a long time. I'd rather you think I am a negative ass, but then remember something I said before doing something life ending. Aviation is a blast, landing on the dirt is epic every single time I do it. You will love it, but just learn to do it right and with the right equipment.

Lake Chelan is probably too far to keep a plane for you to make use of it regularly, but I have a spot for rent in my hangar. $300, heated, insulated, air compressor, some use of tools, A&P almost always there to help. Big tire bush plane oriented hangar, except for the Cirrus SR22T

David

Your message comes through loud and clear David. I've personally gone through an actual near-death experience after a snowboard related brain injury and I am extremely fortunate to be alive today on borrowed time. Yes I was wearing a helmet. Yes I was riding responsibly. I am intimately familiar with risk assessment and how easily things can go pear shaped.

I am not an aviation expert, but I believe that the majority of VFR general aviation and sport aircraft fatalities are caused by pilot's loss of control. Specifically: stall spin scenarios at low altitude, unstable no-go-around approaches, improper airspeed, neglecting important payload and density altitude factors, rapidly changing VFR to IMC conditions etc.. Landing off airport on a dry lake bed or a grassy pasture isn't necessarily what's killing people. I think a reasonable person could argue that crashing on a 5000 foot paved runway is equally as undesirable as crashing on a 500 foot dirt strip.

Poor assessment of one's abilities or inherent risk can end badly regardless of area of operation and indeed only experience + judgment can mitigate these risks. How much experience? The answer is probably subjective, but certainly well above FAA minimums. In the 1940's pilots were operating 2000 horsepower F4U Corsairs from soft fields with hardly 200 hours of total flying time under their belts. Flying 500 hours or 5-8 years in an 80HP LSA with 40mph stall speed seems like an awfully long waiting period before attempting an off airport landing ?. But I get your point, and it is received graciously. We're fortunate to have a wealth of experienced bush pilots and CFI's in our corner of the woods.

912UL 80HP is my first choice. If I can find a 100HP in my price range I'd be very excited but I won't ever need the extra take off and climb performance. I'm researching and entertaining the Subaru E81 option which seems to carry a lower price but it sounds to me like there's a reason for that? What do you think? Locating somebody qualified to perform a pre purchase inspection on an airplane is something I have not nailed down. Suppose I find a plane near your locale, i may give you a ring.

I've read from many Kitfox owners that folding & erecting the wing isn't that big of a deal as long as you aren't in a hurry. The company's been iterating on the folding design for a couple decades. What am I missing here? I'd be happy with a Highlander or STOL particularly if I were building from scratch. People seem to claim they're be a bit more robust than the Avid or Kitfox designs. I'm not sure it will make a difference for me as a low time owner.

Chelan is out of range for hangar needs but I bet its beautiful place to fly and earn a Float rating!

Cheers.

 

[Teardropper]

if you fold the wings, trailer it somewhere, and think you can just pop it out and fly, add a couple hours to that.

With my Avid –and the Kitfox has the same design– you swing the wing out, drop a 1/4" pin and lock it with a keeper. After the other wing is fixed, you pin the flaperons. Camlock the turtledecks on above the baggage and you're ready to pre-flight.


Ten minutes at best.

T