F450 Ambulance-Opinions needed...

[danjr]

So I've been a member on here for several years, mostly on the jeep side of things. Recently I've been finding more enjoyment on the overland/expedition side as a basecamp for other activities I enjoy outdoors such as backpacking, hunting, and tournament bass fishing out of both a boat and kayak. I've currently got a decent rig in a 98 Dodge Dakota, 100k miles on it, 4x4 with the 5.2 and a hightop topper with portal door on the back. It is great for mild offroading (not a locked jeep on 37's like I've had...) and the back is nice and roomy for sleeping or hauling gear.

However, I'm looking to expand in size a bit and am finding myself wishing I had more amenities than just a sleeping area. I'm also looking for something with a more towing capacity for expanding the toy range...

I've loved the idea of the ambulance conversion as the cabinets/counters are already in place, easy to convert bench area to a bed, tons of electrical set up for powering options (also a bit to bite off and chew but what is a project with it being a PROJECT), and tons of room for living besides just sleeping. Also, I cannot stress how nice all the outside storage compartments will be for hauling gear for my many hobbies around.

A big push for me will be to eventually do a 4x4 conversion, and I love 7.3 powerstrokes. I've had a mildly modified 2003 F250 in the past that was a blast to drive.

I'm leaning towards a type 1, of F450 Truck front end with an ambo box on the back. My thinking is this set up would much easier to convert to 4x4 and I like the idea of having some space to work under the hood and that it'd have a wastegate.

Several questions for all of you guys who are more experienced than I am. I've already reviewed several threads, but am looking for a bit more clarity on my specific questions.

1) Is my thinking on the 4x4 conversion being easier with the F450 vs E350/E450? I'd want to do the work myself.
2) Is the 4x4 conversion really a pipe dream and I should hold out for an already 4x4 ambo?
3) Any reason the van front end would be better than the truck front end? (I'm talking other reasons than just the 4x4 conversion)
4) I need real input on an already found 1999 F450 ambulance. Has 160k miles on it, hour meter says 1069 hours. Has newer ford towing mirrors, 04+ headlight conversion, new alternator (not sure if has dual alternators or just oversized?), new starter. It is set up with an air ride suspension system. Brand new rotors and brakes. What would be a solid going rate for this truck?
5) Am I jumping in over my head and need to be doing some more research on this beforehand?

This rig will most likely replace my Dakota and I'd pick up an awd car for a DD and use the ambo for all other weekend excursions or household chores (trailer can be used if needed), so I'm trying to make sure this is the right move before I part with my already decently set up rig.

Looking forward to some knowledgeable feedback. I may be going to look at that truck this weekend depending upon what I'm hearing...

Thanks in advance!

Mods, if this needs to be moved to 'Other expedition vehicles' please do so. I just know most of the ambulance talk takes place in the camper van section due to Type 3's.

 

[rlrenz]

Greetings, and welcome to the asylum! I'll get back to you later with more food for thought, but right now, a Type 1 is more common in a 4x4 configuration. At 150 K miles, it's a little high, but that would also depend on who the past user was, and the ambulance usage -- that many miles for a "city" ambulance means a lot of hard miles, but it wouldn't be as bad for a transport ambulance that did 50-75 mile runs. The hour reading of 1059 sounds like it did mostly distance trips.

One of the best sites to check out is Global Emergency Vehicles. They overhaul and resell used ambulances, and their web site will give you a lot of guidance.

You can always convery an ambulance to 4x4, but check out the prices for existing 4x4's - look for dealers in Florida - their beach cities usually have some 4x4's. It may be possible to buy an existing cheaper than doing your own conversion, but if the rest of a 4x2 ambulance is what you want, then a conversion makes more sense.

Check out GEV's price for as-is clearance ambulances, and use that as guidance.

 

[Petrolburner]

I have a van, and my next rig will be either a 4x4 F550 with the 7.3l and swap on a 14ft Uhaul box with the Mom's attic for bed space. Or, just run the 2WD Uhaul F350 with the big block 460. I want the truck front end. Converting an F450 or 550 to 4WD difficulty vs the 350 series? I don't know but I'm curious.

Here's an example of what I'd put together, this;

http://bend.craigslist.org/cto/5799068568.html

with this;

http://corvallis.craigslist.org/hvo/5839409999.html

 

[tgreening]

I don't know that one is easier than the other, except one you could probably source all your parts from the junk yard whereas the van you'd need to either fabricate or buy. Even at that the only thing you're really saving is front spring hangers and the driveshaft. If it were me doing it I wouldn't go for junkyard springs no more than I'd go for junkyard shocks.

The big dollar items are in your transmission, transfer case, and front axle. You're buying thIs stuff regardless of the platform, and most likely it all should be rebuilt. Add rear springs to this equation since you'll most likely be lifting it in the process.

I guess the short version of this story is you aren't saving much if any by basing off a truck vs a van. With that said if you really want a truck platform why not just buy it already 4x4, and keep your eyes out for an ambo module to drop on it? Or just buy the already 4x4 ambo version. They're more common than 4x4 van models.

I liked the van for the shorter package and the pass through, and IMO the way cooler look. . I dislike the van because every time I pop the hood to do something I end up creating brand new curse words before I'm done.

It's different.
Chicks dig it.
Guys want it. (Because chicks dig it)
Chicks dig it.

Good enough for me!

 

[patoz]

You guys pretty much covered the mechanics of it, so no point in adding my 2 cents worth!

I will add this though, I have heard about guys having problems getting insurance on 2WD to 4WD converted vehicles in certain states, or when crossing borders. So, with all things considered, I believe I would look specifically for a factory 4WD version if I were planning on traveling very far or into other countries. Plus, you'll save yourself a bunch of expense, work, and possible heartache down the road somewhere.

They're out there, but finding and buying a 4WD ambulance presents it's own set of problems too, such as...

1. What part of the country was it used in and what kind of terrain? Was it a beach area (salt damage), rocky area (structural damage), swampy/muddy area (water damage), etc. Basically, how many miles were actually off-road miles and how rough were they?

2. Was it in an urban or rural setting? Jack rabbit starts and panic stops vs. normal starts and stops.

3. Was it owned by a large commercial or government run service, or a small town or volunteer service? Good regular maintenance and repair vs. maintenance and repair as finances allowed.

A some point, I may be looking for a later model F450 4x4 also, so I'll be looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[rlrenz]

If you find an existing 4x4 truck in good condition, you can do a remount (as it's called by ambulance dealers/mechanics). You would save time if you started with a Ford truck since Ford trucks are used on probably 80%+ of the ambulances out there, and the odds are that it would be a faster installation, plus Ford has a very good upfitter site. I work with a professional upfitters group, and a posting a few days ago mentioned that a remount was completed in one day. Granted, the writer has done a remount before, he had a pair of vehicle hoists to do the lifting, and the new truck he was installing was specifically set up for ambulance service.

The problem with a non-ambulance set up is that you will wind up inventing the wheel -- you will need an oversize alternator, a second air conditioning compressor, etc. But since you aren't building an ambulance, you won't need wig-wag headlights, a siren, warning lights, and all the rest that have to be incorporated into the vehicle for it to be an ambulance, so the electrical changes won't be as severe.

One suggestion would be to track down a module (the ambulance portion) from a builder who's still in business, such as Wheeled Coach, Braun, Horton, etc. It may be challenging, but you may be able to get some wiring information for the module if you have the module serial number. This isn't as crucial if you're planning to completely strip the interior and rewire the whole thing.

Last thought is don't panic over gas versus diesel. Many ambulances are being built with gasoline engines since newer gas engines are more reliable than those of 10-20 years ago, and they have a lower cost of operation in a city operation than diesel.

If you decide to look for an existing 4x4, check with areas that get cold & snow instead of beach areas, but plan on replacing all the brake lines regardless. When an ambulance/fire truck returns to the fire station after a run, it usually gets washed off. Since the station has long trench drains that usually run under the vehicles, the high humidity causes the brake lines to rust out faster than if the ambulances were parked in the cold - this problem is also common for fire truck rebuilders as well. Both MNtal and I have run into brake line failure on our Freightliner ambulances.

 

[danjr]

Greetings, and welcome to the asylum! I'll get back to you later with more food for thought, but right now, a Type 1 is more common in a 4x4 configuration. At 150 K miles, it's a little high, but that would also depend on who the past user was, and the ambulance usage -- that many miles for a "city" ambulance means a lot of hard miles, but it wouldn't be as bad for a transport ambulance that did 50-75 mile runs. The hour reading of 1059 sounds like it did mostly distance trips.

One of the best sites to check out is Global Emergency Vehicles. They overhaul and resell used ambulances, and their web site will give you a lot of guidance.

You can always convery an ambulance to 4x4, but check out the prices for existing 4x4's - look for dealers in Florida - their beach cities usually have some 4x4's. It may be possible to buy an existing cheaper than doing your own conversion, but if the rest of a 4x2 ambulance is what you want, then a conversion makes more sense.

Check out GEV's price for as-is clearance ambulances, and use that as guidance.

GEV has some nice units, but man are they pricey. I'm thinking I can pick up this F450 unit for between 5k and 6k. The GEV prices are making me think this is a screaming deal.

 

[danjr]

I don't know that one is easier than the other, except one you could probably source all your parts from the junk yard whereas the van you'd need to either fabricate or buy. Even at that the only thing you're really saving is front spring hangers and the driveshaft. If it were me doing it I wouldn't go for junkyard springs no more than I'd go for junkyard shocks.

The big dollar items are in your transmission, transfer case, and front axle. You're buying thIs stuff regardless of the platform, and most likely it all should be rebuilt. Add rear springs to this equation since you'll most likely be lifting it in the process.

I guess the short version of this story is you aren't saving much if any by basing off a truck vs a van. With that said if you really want a truck platform why not just buy it already 4x4, and keep your eyes out for an ambo module to drop on it? Or just buy the already 4x4 ambo version. They're more common than 4x4 van models.

I liked the van for the shorter package and the pass through, and IMO the way cooler look. . I dislike the van because every time I pop the hood to do something I end up creating brand new curse words before I'm done.

It's different.
Chicks dig it.
Guys want it. (Because chicks dig it)
Chicks dig it.

Good enough for me!

The F450 I'm looking at has a pass through-that was a huge requirement for me. I think the minimod van's look awesome, but I think I can accomplish an Earthroamer-esque look with the truck front end... maybe haha.

The chick in question seems to be a fan of the idea, mostly because it gets her outdoors and still with a comfortable bed to boot.

 

[danjr]

You guys pretty much covered the mechanics of it, so no point in adding my 2 cents worth!

I will add this though, I have heard about guys having problems getting insurance on 2WD to 4WD converted vehicles in certain states, or when crossing borders. So, with all things considered, I believe I would look specifically for a factory 4WD version if I were planning on traveling very far or into other countries. Plus, you'll save yourself a bunch of expense, work, and possible heartache down the road somewhere.

They're out there, but finding and buying a 4WD ambulance presents it's own set of problems too, such as...

1. What part of the country was it used in and what kind of terrain? Was it a beach area (salt damage), rocky area (structural damage), swampy/muddy area (water damage), etc. Basically, how many miles were actually off-road miles and how rough were they?

2. Was it in an urban or rural setting? Jack rabbit starts and panic stops vs. normal starts and stops.

3. Was it owned by a large commercial or government run service, or a small town or volunteer service? Good regular maintenance and repair vs. maintenance and repair as finances allowed.

A some point, I may be looking for a later model F450 4x4 also, so I'll be looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I was looking through your build thread earlier today actually! My dad is convinced the ambo box on a trailer is the way to go, but then I'd also be shelling out some dinero for a truck that could pull it (I believe yours was topping out at 6k lbs loaded?). The only other dig I have against the trailer option is that I can't pull a boat and the camper set up at the same time (well at least and be safe and able to reverse...)

 

[danjr]

If you find an existing 4x4 truck in good condition, you can do a remount (as it's called by ambulance dealers/mechanics). You would save time if you started with a Ford truck since Ford trucks are used on probably 80%+ of the ambulances out there, and the odds are that it would be a faster installation, plus Ford has a very good upfitter site. I work with a professional upfitters group, and a posting a few days ago mentioned that a remount was completed in one day. Granted, the writer has done a remount before, he had a pair of vehicle hoists to do the lifting, and the new truck he was installing was specifically set up for ambulance service.

The problem with a non-ambulance set up is that you will wind up inventing the wheel -- you will need an oversize alternator, a second air conditioning compressor, etc. But since you aren't building an ambulance, you won't need wig-wag headlights, a siren, warning lights, and all the rest that have to be incorporated into the vehicle for it to be an ambulance, so the electrical changes won't be as severe.

One suggestion would be to track down a module (the ambulance portion) from a builder who's still in business, such as Wheeled Coach, Braun, Horton, etc. It may be challenging, but you may be able to get some wiring information for the module if you have the module serial number. This isn't as crucial if you're planning to completely strip the interior and rewire the whole thing.

Last thought is don't panic over gas versus diesel. Many ambulances are being built with gasoline engines since newer gas engines are more reliable than those of 10-20 years ago, and they have a lower cost of operation in a city operation than diesel.

If you decide to look for an existing 4x4, check with areas that get cold & snow instead of beach areas, but plan on replacing all the brake lines regardless. When an ambulance/fire truck returns to the fire station after a run, it usually gets washed off. Since the station has long trench drains that usually run under the vehicles, the high humidity causes the brake lines to rust out faster than if the ambulances were parked in the cold - this problem is also common for fire truck rebuilders as well. Both MNtal and I have run into brake line failure on our Freightliner ambulances.

Thanks for the heads up on the brake lines, that is risky business right there. Only concern I'd have with a gas motor is that I'd have to go too new than the pocket book would allow to see a powerful and reliable enough gasser. Plus, its fun to dump some black smoke passing someone :smiley_drive: However, I'm not one of those crazed diesel snobs making intersections disappear with terrible air to fuel mixtures when the light turns green...

 

[patoz]

I was looking through your build thread earlier today actually! My dad is convinced the ambo box on a trailer is the way to go, but then I'd also be shelling out some dinero for a truck that could pull it (I believe yours was topping out at 6k lbs loaded?). The only other dig I have against the trailer option is that I can't pull a boat and the camper set up at the same time (well at least and be safe and able to reverse...)

I had that debate with myself when I started also. I hate pulling a trailer, but I already have a F250 Super Duty PU, so the tow vehicle part was covered.

Some pros and cons of a trailer...

Pros:

1. Not a vehicle, so no mandatory insurance required.

2. No engine to maintain.

3. Can park, set up camp, and still have a vehicle to drive if need be.

4. Tag is much cheaper, especially if registered as an RV.

5. Tow vehicle can also be your Daily Driver, so it's not delegated just as a camper.


Cons:

1. Insuring it as an RV is almost impossible, because it's homemade.

2. Still requires a title, tag, and registration.

3. Can't tow anything else.

4. Off-road travel much more difficult than with just a truck alone.

5. Takes up more space parked at home and in a campground with the tow vehicle.


And, I'm sure there are many more. You just have to weigh both sides and determine which way will work best for you and your situation.

 

[rlrenz]

Some thoughts - first, throwing down a cloud of black grunge pulling away from a stop light is rare unless your engine is WAY overdue for some help, or you drilled out your injectors. Not a good idea, particularly if you drive in California.

The advantage to using your daily driver to tow a trailer is that you only have one rig to maintain, so (hopefully) you can roll in a heartbeat if needed. Some things on an ambulance as a vehicle that can bite you happen with just age, let alone with miles. Rubber rots, and needs to be replaced. Moisture can accumulate in fuel, oil, and brake systems from condensation - if you do buy an existing ambulance, spend the cash to change all the fluids -- radiator, brake fluid, differentials, engine, tranny.

In my own case, I had sticking brakes, primarily since it wasn't driven a lot. We wound up tearing down every brake caliper and exercising it to free them up - this wouldn't happen with a daily driver.

A module would make a heavy trailer - but a darn near eternal trailer. Typically, the sides are 1/8" aluminum, and the roof would be 1/10" aluminum. Here in MN, it wouldn't be difficult to license - it would be a "home built" trailer, and a home built trailer can be an RV easily enough - check with your state to see what they require. In my own case, I already have a 120 power feed on the module, and once I add the refrigerator, the propane cooktop, and the heater, it can be licensed as an RV.

Insurance agents are fine with insuring an ambulance once it has an RV license -- the panic is when it is still an "ambulance" that it gets challenging. In my own case, when I bought it from GEV, by PA law they had to remove the ambulance lettering, the siren, and any red or blue light lenses. I showed a photo to the agent I used, and they agreed that it was now just a white truck.

You can probably assemble a trailer fairly reasonably since there won't be an engine, alternator, AC, etc to repair if needed. Be warned - if you wind up with an entire ambulance, stay away from the dealers for any repair. My friendly neighborhood Freightliner dealer charges $130 per hour, but I use an independent who charges $80 per hour when needed.

An ambulance conversion, either stand-alone or as a trailer, can run into money real fast. Price out deep cycle batteries, or group 31 starting batteries sometime if you want sticker shock. Price out water tanks and pumps, price out an inverter, price out a generator, and the list goes on. In my own case, we were rolling through Indiana when a truckload of scrap steel burped out a ton or so of scrap, all over the road. We hit what looked (briefly) like a 50 pound U joint at about 60 MPH (and we came out better than the vehicles that were now in the center median, or the tour bus that was on the shoulder and leaking all over the road) - it killed my truck's muffler and exhaust piping. We tiptoed the rest of the way home so the neighbors wouldn't be out with torches and pitchforks at 1100 when we finished the trip, and the next day I got to spend $1000 on a new exhaust system.

And if you wind up needing a tow sometime, you get to use the BIG tow trucks, the ones that charge $300 per hour or so. Plan on spending $100 on a Good Sam roadside assistance plan instead -- and by the way - never plan on finding new tires on sale anywhere.

I'm not trying to scare you - but there are some GOTTCHAs out there. If you do a conversion as time and money permit, it will take time -- more time will help save money, but at a certain point, you still need money

 

[Bikersmurf]

1069 hours would make for an average speed of 150 mph. More likely it is 10,069 and an average of 15 mph... more in line for an Ambulance.

Mine had an average of 12 mph when it was pulled out of service. It now has 212,000 miles and 16,000 hours. It runs like a top and I'd not hesitate to drive it across the country.

I'm very happy with the everything about the E350 package... until it needs servicing. It is a major PITA, and routine, straight forward jobs become a MAJOR PITA. I don't desire $X$... (4x4) and appreciate that it fits in a regular parking spot and isn't longer than an F150.

 

[Bikersmurf]

For more normal use, 5000 miles is about 200 hours. 160,000 miles would be about 6400 hours.

Per hours, mine has the equivalent to about 400,000 miles on the motor. The E450 more inline with 250,000 miles... The question is how well was it taken care of for those hours. In my case, they are routinely serviced and repaired with no expense spared... some are more in a patch it up and get it earning money way.

 

[patoz]

Dang Bob, after reading all that, I think I'll just stick with my trailer build!