First Post - Newbie question about using DC and converting to AC

Leever2000

New member
What is best and most efficient way to convert DC to AC to run a fan at night?

My thought was to charge a DC power source during day with generator then using the DC power source output to an inverter (convert to 110VAC) and run the fan at night.

Simple question but just want to know how everybody else does this that has been doing it for a long time?

Thanks, David
 

ExploringNH

Explorer
I think most people would run a DC fan, either battery powered or plug in. Anytime you convert from one power source to another, in this case DC>ac, you lose efficiency. There are plenty of DC fans out there that cost the same as a small converter as well, so cost isn't really a concern.

Do you have a specific need to be running an ac fan?
 

Leever2000

New member
DC to AC

No specific need to run an AC fan. I will look into the DC fans, like I said an easy question. What about other items like a fridge/freezer etc...? Other than a fan why do people convert DC to AC?
 

nycgags

New member
Other than a fan why do people convert DC to AC?

If someone has a house A/C it would be cheaper to run that for an hour than it would be to invest in a DC specific A/C. Similarly with power tools, it is cheaper to use what they currently own than to go ahead and invest in a DC specific item that they might use only once.
 

Leever2000

New member
AC to DC to AC

I went out on the web and searched for a camping power source and received items like the Yeti 400 or Stanley Fat Max. Inputs to charge are DC and AC and output are AC and DC. That being said this is basically what I am trying to do. Is there a cheaper/DIY type item that I can build fairly easy or buy? I would want to use to run a fan all night or maybe watch a movie on a portable DVD player etc...? nycgags - I concur with your post
 
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DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
DC fan, DC fridge, DC TV, DC DVD - in short, DC every time you can.

Use AC for microwave, induction cooktop, Macintosh chargers, etc. Inverters suck power so use the smallest you can get away with for the shortest time possible.
 

Leever2000

New member
It looks like I am looking for something like a Goal Zero Yeti 400, this will provide a DC power source that can be charged up during the day by 110VAC or 12VDC. It appears it will provide enough power to run a 12 VDC fan and couple other items like charging a phone etc...? Are there other equivalent power sources like the Goal Zero Yeti 400?
 

jonyjoe101

Adventurer
goal zero is a 33 ah agm battery powerpack. You can just buy a comparable agm battery (about 70 dollars)and maybe a small 400 watt inverter for 50 dollars. 400 watts is more than enough to power most ac fans. Building your own would be alot cheaper than going namebrand. Some 12 volt jump packs have built in inverters and you can consider almost equivalent to goalzero but several hundred dollars cheaper but the drawback they only have a 17 ah agm battery. Many people here in the forums have build there own powerpacks and saved alot of money.

Myself I have a 12 volt fan I made from a 12 volt 9" car radiator electric fan (about 25 dollars) it puts out more air than most ac fans and only uses 70 watts (about 5 amps/12 volts) at full power. I use a pwm speed control (6 dollars) so I can throttle it down to less than an amp when I dont need full power. A comparable 12 volt fan would be a fantastic fan endless breeze which I have and rarely use (80 dollars) which is too expensive for what it does. The 12 volt swampcoolers I use to stay cool, use 1 x 12 volt 120mm computer cooling fan (149 cfm) these fans at full power only use about 1.5 amps and put out a decent amount of air. I can run it all night without worrying about draining the battery. I used to put 2 of these fans on the swampcoolers but rarely ran both fans, one fan does the job.

If you plan to run all night just make sure you have a big enough battery, especially if its a large fan. On a small inverter the voltage loss would be insignificant as long as it gets the job done, without spending too much money. Its all about using what you already got and make it work.

picture of my swampcooler with the 12 volt 120mm fan 1.5 amp
celdek small.jpg
12 volt fantastic fan 3.0 amp
fantastic fan.jpg
 

Leever2000

New member
Jonyjoe101 - Goal Zero is out! I am going to use a 12 VDC battery and charge with solar panels. This past weekend I was looking for a battery and heard that I would need a marine deep cycle battery. I was looking at Sams Club and just looking at the batteries they have available the choices were any where from $60 to $200. What do I need? How do I choose? What is an agm battery?
 

rossvtaylor

Adventurer
Jonyjoe101 - Goal Zero is out! I am going to use a 12 VDC battery and charge with solar panels. This past weekend I was looking for a battery and heard that I would need a marine deep cycle battery. I was looking at Sams Club and just looking at the batteries they have available the choices were any where from $60 to $200. What do I need? How do I choose? What is an agm battery?

Hi Leever2000, and apologies to Jonyjoe101 for answering a question posed to him/her. Essentially, a car battery is designed to deliver a lot of energy in a short period of time and that energy is advertised in CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) - this is how they tell you how much energy (power, actually...) the battery can send in a spurt to crank your vehicle. For RV-type use, you want a battery with thicker plates inside that can be drawn down deeper than a car battery can tolerate. Marine deep cycle batteries aren't true deep cycle, in the sense of an off-grid home, but they're better than a car battery for this use. Generally, if a battery advertises a CCA rating it's not an ideal deep-discharge battery. But, they can work for budget systems. A true deep discharge battery will show an amp-hour rating, which is the energy it can store (amps over a period of time). You really can't use more than 50% of that rating. For most of us, marine "deep cycle" batteries or dual purpose batteries work just fine and they don't cost a ton. If you want to go one step up, you can use two 6V golf cart batteries in series to give you 12V. Sams carries those.

An AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery is basically a standard flooded lead acid (FLA) battery with the addition of fiberglass mat between the plates. The electrolyte (acid solution) inside a regular FLA battery can spill. In an AGM battery, the mat is almost fully saturated with the electrolyte. Think of a sponge that's soaking wet, but not so wet that it drips. AGM batteries are "sealed" and, in theory, don't need the addition of distilled water. And, AGM batteries can be jostled or used on their sided without leaking acid.

Hope this helps!

Edit to clarify the above "power, actually" comment I made: I work in renewable energy and have taught system and battery bank design classes worldwide, including doing lots of village and commercial installations. So, I guess, this is my inner teacher coming out... sorry! But, I've seen lots of folks confuse power and energy (as used in these systems). Power is an instantaneous measurement and energy is power used or delivered over time. So, a heater or light bulb has a power consumption rating. Let's go with a 100W light bulb... that 100W (Watts being a power measurement, the result of multiplying volts times amps) being the power that bulb uses in any given instant. But, what we use is normally energy. We want our system to power that bulb for some period of time. So, a 100W bulb burning for one hour uses 100 Watt-hours. And, if you burn it for 10 hours, you use 1000 Watt-hours or 1kWh. That's what we buy from our utility company, kWhs (kilo-Watt-hours). But, I've seen lots of folks talk about how many kilo-Watts they use. kW is a power rating, which you use for sizing your inverter. But, for sizing a system to provide that power for some period of time, you need to talk in terms of energy. And, going up a few lines to the volts x amps = Watts comment, if you know how many Watts an appliance or bulb draws you can figure out how many amps you need to feed it... a 100W bulb in a 12V system is drawing 8.3 amps. Actually, the amperage will be a bit lower because your voltage should be higher than 12V. But, let's go with 12V for simplicity. So, if you want to run that bulb for 10 hours you need to feed it 8.3 amps for 10 hours, or 83 amp-hours. Assuming no losses for simplicity, you need a battery that has double that capacity of AH so that you don't draw the battery down below 50%. So, you'd need a battery bank that could store 166 amp-hours or more. I'm totally glossing over some other factors, like capacity changes at different temps and draw rate, but this gives you an idea. So, if you know the current (amp) draw and your voltage you can estimate the battery bank size you need pretty closely.

So, a battery that tells you a CCA rating is telling you how much power it can send out... but that doesn't tell you for how long, so you don't know how much energy (amp-hours) it can store.
 
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Leever2000

New member
rossvtaylor - that is all good information. It is refreshing to recall my basic electronics (P=I * E). If I understand correctly you say to get 2 (6 VDC) golf cart batteries and hook up in series. How do I hook up the 2 batteries in series (a positive terminal to the other battery negative terminal?). If my goal is to use a fan through out night I will need a fan and a battery combination that will run through the night with out completely discharging the battery. The good thing is that I have not bought the fan or the batteries yet any recommendations? Thanks -
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I use a 12v fan from Autozone. 15 bucks. Has a clamp to put it where you want it. Draws 10 watts and works fine. I have a couple, but rarely need more than one.

After a couple years the graphite bearings wear out. I chop off the wire to use for projects and toss it and buy a new one.
 

rossvtaylor

Adventurer
rossvtaylor - that is all good information. It is refreshing to recall my basic electronics (P=I * E). If I understand correctly you say to get 2 (6 VDC) golf cart batteries and hook up in series. How do I hook up the 2 batteries in series (a positive terminal to the other battery negative terminal?). If my goal is to use a fan through out night I will need a fan and a battery combination that will run through the night with out completely discharging the battery. The good thing is that I have not bought the fan or the batteries yet any recommendations? Thanks -

Thanks and sorry if I was being too basic... you never know who has what background. You've got the electronics background, but others may be starting from scratch. Thanks for being a good sport!

And, yes, you're right about the series connections. Picture D cells in a flashlight, end to end (+ to -) and that's series. And (for others, not you) remember how battery connections work. In series, you add the voltage of each battery but NOT the amp-hour capacity. So, if you buy 6V batteries which each have a 100AH capacity, you end up with a 12V 100AH battery bank if you run them in series. There are advantages, from a charging perspective, to put batteries in series as much as possible.

If you connect batteries in parallel, in other words all the + together and all the - together, you add the AH capacity of all the batteries but the voltage doesn't change.

For what you're doing, a regular marine "deep cycle" 12V battery would most likely work just fine. But, the golf cart batteries are generally heavier duty and more tolerant of discharge so they should last longer.
 

Leever2000

New member
Simple is good. If I were to use the fan that dwh mentioned that draws 10 watts and I want the fan to last 10 hours what size battery would I need to get?
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
10 (watts) × 10 (hours) = 100 watt-hours.

100Wh ÷ 12.5 (volts) = 8 (amp-hours).

So (in heeding the 50% discharge recommendation for lead-acid batteries) a 16 Ah deep-cycle battery should be able to provide that. Of course if you want to run other things (lights, fridge, etc.) then you will need to up-size the battery accordingly.

Most automotive type deep cycle batteries start at around 55Ah and go up from there, so you should be good for a 10W fan with just about anything.
 

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