Explorerinil
Observer
Your right, we train once a month minimum in all light and weather conditions, for moving and stationary targets, shooting and hitting a target under stress is much harder.
For those that carry Guns and Overlanding
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Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
crazysccrmd
Observer
I’ve watched bears with completely destroyed hearts run 150yds after the shot. A heart shot is not going to stop an attacking bear before it is on top of you. I obviously didn’t mean shooting a bear in the foot would save you, that’s why I specified the major joints further in my post. No one shooting at a charging bear that is actually attacking not bluff charging has the time to accurately put more than one or two rounds on target, much less precisely aim for the base of the skull. A fast hard cast bullet is going to penetrate the full length of a bear and the hope is if it doesn’t hit the brain it will hit the spine or a major joint and stop the animal.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. A shot that destroys the entire heart (to include the connecting aorta) will put an animal down relatively quickly. Shots that only induce partial destruction of the heart allow for the possibility of the animal moving some before it expires (as you noted).
Most hunters don't aim for the heart because it is a small target which is difficult to locate and precisely hit at range. Moreover, they're not concerned with the animal charging them in most situations, so a lung-shot animal that moves several dozen yards to several hundred is deemed to be a likely occurrence, if not acceptable.
All that said, I do agree that brain and central nervous system will be the most obvious area of the bear to target.
That's a very lackadaisical attitude to have on this topic. I think it's much better to plan for the worst, hope for the best.
Some shooting skills do transfer. But there is a special kind of mentality and familiarity that is needed to accurately employ magnums, especially in a life-or-death situation. Just because you can put accurate 9mm fire onto an inanimate, stationary target, doesn't mean that you can put accurate .44 rounds into an angry brown bear. Two very different shooting experiences there.
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DieselRanger
Well-known member
The first shot is the most important. Center mass on a charging bear is roughly its face - most charge head down slightly. Recoil only matters for the second shot. So those skills - draw/fire center of mass, move while composing follow up - ABSOLUTELY transfer. Sure, you need practice with different sight pictures for the firearm you're using, but I regularly go back and forth between .40 S&W, .45, .45LC/410, .44mag weapons and I know my weapons - each has a different sight picture and for the .410/.45LC a different aim point depending on which ammo I'm using, and I can get in the 10" black at 7 yards from the draw/point/shoot on each of them. I've shot .454 and it's a handful for sure, but nothing I didn't feel I couldn't handle accurately on the first shot with practice. I prefer a 5" barrel on my heavy rounds just to have more mass to mitigate recoil, while keeping it manageable on the draw. I carry on a drop leg holster so as not to interfere with a backpack on the draw, and yes, you have to practice while wearing a pack because of shoulder/elbow motion. A Taurus Raging Bull -059M is 5" and weighs a hair over 3lbs, with a ported barrel. Recoil is heavy but doesn't feel any worse than my Judge Magnum with 3" Federal 000 Buck in the cylinder. Barrel length on that revolver is only 3". Taurus also makes a model 444 multi-alloy with a 4" barrel that weighs less than 2lbs empty in a .44mag. If you can't learn to draw and fire one shot center-mass in less than 2 seconds on that, you probably should find someone who can, and travel with them.
To each his own, but I agree - plan for the worst, hope for the best.
steviesterno
Member
what's that old advice for bear defense? You just need a 22. you shoot your buddy in the knee so you can run away!
I have never shot a charging animal, but I have shot a lot of competition with moving targets. I would imagine the same advise would hold true, that you should EDC or hike with something you are intimately familiar with and shoot well. If I train with a 9mm M&P, compete with it, EDC it, keep it next to the bed, it wouldn't really be helpful to have a 500 S&W single action on my hip in the woods. I should have the tool I"m the most familiar with. for that reason, when I carry in the woods it's something I'm up on, either the M&P mentioned or a 1911. I also keep an AR/AR pistol/and or Shotgun handy. 300BO and 12 gauge are better than any pistol could be.
full disclosure, I haven't been way off the beaten path in a while, but when I go I carry the best ammo for the job. So heavy hard cast for pistols, slugs/buck in the shotgun, and 300BO in the AR. I am not recoil sensitive and train with full power, so I"m happy with it.
I have never shot a charging animal, but I have shot a lot of competition with moving targets. I would imagine the same advise would hold true, that you should EDC or hike with something you are intimately familiar with and shoot well. If I train with a 9mm M&P, compete with it, EDC it, keep it next to the bed, it wouldn't really be helpful to have a 500 S&W single action on my hip in the woods. I should have the tool I"m the most familiar with. for that reason, when I carry in the woods it's something I'm up on, either the M&P mentioned or a 1911. I also keep an AR/AR pistol/and or Shotgun handy. 300BO and 12 gauge are better than any pistol could be.
full disclosure, I haven't been way off the beaten path in a while, but when I go I carry the best ammo for the job. So heavy hard cast for pistols, slugs/buck in the shotgun, and 300BO in the AR. I am not recoil sensitive and train with full power, so I"m happy with it.
GB_Willys_2014
Well-known member
Good thread
Even though I am a proponent of the 2A (NRA member for 25+ years), I still find other opinions interesting.
Regarding the backcountry, if in my Jeep, I keep a GP100 in a lock box. If hiking/back-packing, I generally don't carry a firearm.
For me, it is an equation of risk and overhead.
Even though I am a proponent of the 2A (NRA member for 25+ years), I still find other opinions interesting.
Regarding the backcountry, if in my Jeep, I keep a GP100 in a lock box. If hiking/back-packing, I generally don't carry a firearm.
For me, it is an equation of risk and overhead.
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crazysccrmd
Observer
300BO is a terrible choice for bear. I’ll take a .357 or .44 with hard cast bullets all day any day over that underperforming overhyped cartridge. If you want to use an AR a 450 Bushmaster with handloaded hard cast is a far better choice. Or just carry the 12ga with Brenneke black magic slugs.
LocoCoyote
World Citizen
Without disparaging or judging anyone...
It must be terrible to live in a world where you fear so much that you go armed everywhere...
It must be terrible to live in a world where you fear so much that you go armed everywhere...
crazysccrmd
Observer
It has nothing to do with fear. Some people like to be prepared for when bad things happen. The same reason I wear a seatbelt even though I’ve never been in a wreck or carry a fire extinguisher, survival kit and medical bag in my truck and haven’t had to use any of them.
LocoCoyote
World Citizen
I have traveled the last 40 or so years and have never felt the need for a firearm.
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steviesterno
Member
it's the same idea as mentioned with seat belts, fire extinguisher, and insurance. But a gun is a bit like a parachute. If you don't have one when you need one, there's a good chance you'll never need one again.
steviesterno
Member
I think you're only thinking about heavy subsonics. the hunting rounds hit harder than either of the choices you have listed.
357 hits with 540-580 ft pounds depending on weight, and you have like 7 in the gun
44 magnum hits with 900 ft pounds, and again 6 in the gun or 10 in a lever gun
300BO hits with 1360 ft pounds. which is the same energy as getting hit with both 357 and 44 at the same time.
semi autos also have the advantage of 30+ rounds on tap with 30 more pretty quick.
I thought the same as you when I only knew about subsonics. Those are 220gn moving at 1k feet per second, so about the same as a 45acp. but the faster hunting rounds hit harder. and where 300 shines is your ability to switch between these rounds with just a mag change, and you get good ballistics out of an 8" barrel.
crazysccrmd
Observer
I'm considering the characteristics other than energy. Bullet weight, momentum, construction and penetration are more important in this case. A lightweight expanding hunting bullet is great for a broadside heart/lung shot but a poor choice when penetration of heavy bone and muscle is the intent. Look into bullet momentum and the Taylor KO factor.
CSG
Explorer
I don't carry a firearm when I travel for wildlife like bears, I carry it as last stage protection from human scum. Normally, in the past, I traveled with a Glock 17 with a 19 round magazine and a little LCP which rides in my pocket on the trail. In recent years, I moved to the FNP-45 with a 15 round capacity. I'm 67 and spent a few years as a cop in SF in the 70's. That taught me a few things about people. The people I feel sorry for are the victims who never had a problem before. Until they did and weren't prepared.
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