Ford OBS 7.3 manual trans or 1998-2003 manual trans 4x4 for overlanding? F250 or F350

[jonb96150]

Greetings to the forum. Longtime lurker and need some advice. I have done some searching, but my search kung **** is weak and I am but a poor grasshopper.

I am in the planning stage of my next overlander. I currently have a built toyota fzj80, locked, winched, rtt, blah blah blah. The gas engine limits the range more than I would like. I have owned 3 toyota BJ70 diesels that would get the same mpg off road that I got on road. But the BJ70 is a very small rig (90" wheelbase) and I am tired of tent camping on the ground. Wife does not like climbing into the roof top tent on top of the 80 series. Soooo,,,,

I am considering a Ford 7.3 diesel with a manual tranny for the next project. I prefer a manual trans for the fuel economy while on dirt roads with the hubs locked. Just idling along with a manual tranny and diesel engine can produce impressive mpg off road in my experience.

I will probably top it with a FWC or similar pop up camper. And I want to be able to tow my built Tacoma behind it. With bumpers, winch, supplies etc... I figure I should go for an F350, either extended cab or crew cab. Reg cab won't work for me.

But I have not figured out whether to get an OBS (old body style) 95-97 or a 98-03.

OBS pros- I really like the looks (shallow I know, but I am a shallow person haha) and from what I have read they are easier to work on. Cons- have to get a crew cab if I want an F350.

98-03 pros- I like the granny low on the 6 speed manual. Can get an F350 in extended cab long bed or short bed and doors open to access the the extended cab. Cons- I don't like the looks (shallow I know) and have read that they are harder to work on.

Would like to hear from Ford owners in this regard. Is an OBS Crew cab so long that it is really cumbersome on dirt roads? What kind of fuel economy are folks getting with the hubs locked on long trips etc...? And any other opinions on this subject are very welcome.

Thanks in advance for any input.
JonB

 

[Korben]

Greetings to the forum. Longtime lurker and need some advice. I have done some searching, but my search kung **** is weak and I am but a poor grasshopper.

I am in the planning stage of my next overlander. I currently have a built toyota fzj80, locked, winched, rtt, blah blah blah. The gas engine limits the range more than I would like. I have owned 3 toyota BJ70 diesels that would get the same mpg off road that I got on road. But the BJ70 is a very small rig (90" wheelbase) and I am tired of tent camping on the ground. Wife does not like climbing into the roof top tent on top of the 80 series. Soooo,,,,

I am considering a Ford 7.3 diesel with a manual tranny for the next project. I prefer a manual trans for the fuel economy while on dirt roads with the hubs locked. Just idling along with a manual tranny and diesel engine can produce impressive mpg off road in my experience.

I will probably top it with a FWC or similar pop up camper. And I want to be able to tow my built Tacoma behind it. With bumpers, winch, supplies etc... I figure I should go for an F350, either extended cab or crew cab. Reg cab won't work for me.

But I have not figured out whether to get an OBS (old body style) 95-97 or a 98-03.

OBS pros- I really like the looks (shallow I know, but I am a shallow person haha) and from what I have read they are easier to work on. Cons- have to get a crew cab if I want an F350.

98-03 pros- I like the granny low on the 6 speed manual. Can get an F350 in extended cab long bed or short bed and doors open to access the the extended cab. Cons- I don't like the looks (shallow I know) and have read that they are harder to work on.

Would like to hear from Ford owners in this regard. Is an OBS Crew cab so long that it is really cumbersome on dirt roads? What kind of fuel economy are folks getting with the hubs locked on long trips etc...? And any other opinions on this subject are very welcome.

Thanks in advance for any input.
JonB

I own 3 OBS(kinda there 86-91 rigs) Crew Cab Long Box(CCLB) F350s, several other OBS Ford trucks, 2 rigs with 7.3/5speed, my brother has a 01 7.3 - 6 speed ex-cab. My take....
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Obviously I prefer the older style, but I also prefer the older tech, it has it's advantages, and don't mind an older more worn rig, the issue is does that apply to you as well.
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Is a CCLB too long, they are darn long when dealing with tight obstacles but compared to what and it depends on the obstacle. My 4WD CCLB F350s actually turn rather sharp for a long(168") wheelbase 4WD. The older Dana 60 font end in particular the kingpin version(86-91) in my experience, in particular with a little tweaks has a significantly sharper steering angle then many others. My personal steering angle limitation is my 37" tires, they just barely rub the spring at full lock. Still with the 37s my CCLB F350 4WD will turn a tighter circle then both my brothers 01 Ex-Cab Long Box(ECLB) F250 4WD and my 90 F250 ECLB 4WD. This is because the front axle has more steering angle, I don't know why it sucks on my brothers 01, but on the 90 it's because the front axle is different, mostly a shorter pitman arm, which I guess can be changed. The most common issue that comes up from the long wheelbase that is a real problem isn't really about being able to turn tight, on a tight turn worse case you back up. But when you need to for example turn left to go around an obstacle in front and there's a tree to your left that your rear axle hasn't passed yet. Well that and the rear overhang.
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Sorry I can't really give you any mileage numbers, I don't keep track well and what I do is constantly effected by changes/circumstance.
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You've apparently learned that body styles vs. F350/250 are limited, that is except in 96 and 97. There were several options in those two years that were never offered previously. Most notably Crew-Cab Short Box and Ex-Cab Short Box on the HD chassis with the diesel and 4WD available. Prior to 96 all HD trucks were long box, but still all crew cabs are F350s and all 4WD ex-cabs F250s(IIRC).
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If you want a Ex-Cab with a D60 and 7.3 it's not THAT hard. All the Ex-Cab F250HDs are D50TTB, but going from a D50TTB to a D60 is a quite easy swap, hardest part is sourcing all the right parts, from there it's almost completely bolt on. So buy a nice F250 ECLB 4WD Diesel, etc. and a cheap junk 4WD F350 and swap parts.
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Older tech...
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I already mentioned the front axle steering angle. The second big one on the front axle is serviceable wheel bearings, 99 up are all sealed unit bearings that are notorious for not doing well with large tires, high stress, etc. and are a pain and expensive to replace. 97 down is all very durable serviceable traditional tapered wheel bearings, Also FWIW the D50TTB uses the exact same bearings as the D60, it's no weakling.
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Front breaks, the older calipers are notorious for being sticky, I solve this by never buying new or reman calipers, they don't do the contact surfaces right, I just rebuild old ones. That said they did update the calipers in 96, so 96 up has a better caliper.
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Rear axle, the 10.25 is an excellent axle, it had one minor weakness the pinion was too short, they updated this in 93. The 99 up has the 10.5, an "evolution" of the 10.25 with two major changes disc breaks and the stupid metric lug pattern. To my mind both are going backwards, the pattern of course, but also no need for disc in the back and the disc parking break SUCKS, I'll take a working parking break over whatever is supposed to be better about rear disc.
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The 6 speed, yeah it's better, no denying that but how much. It's stronger but the 5 is no weakling, and it has a wider overall ratio range but not much.
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Engine, personally I MUCH prefer the older 7.3 IDI, it's a fantastic all mechanical diesel with a very wide operating range, super cost effective and reliable, they just do not die. They aren't known for power but that issue has been largely solved by a new aftermarket for them. It sounds like your leaning powerstroke, the 7.3 PS is an excellent engine, they cost though, are both an investment, and you should be prepared to shell out for repairs. FWIW you mention 95-97, you can include 94, technically 94.5, in 94 the PS was phased in and only available with a 5 speed.
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A minor thing when it comes to campers and shells that has bothered my brother. On the SD the bed isn't square, the inside area of the bed rails are square but the outside and thickness of the bed side tapers getting thinner at the back, so a square camper/shell has more overhang on the rear edge.
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Last and worth mentioning, the SD has electrical issues, my brother and others fight issues in regards to the door locks and vehicle security system. It's all tied together with the radio and some other silly stuff for timers, and codes or whatever, I don't know the details only that it's been an ongoing issue. Course the OBS isn't perfect either, don't overload the headlight switch they catch fire and fusible links suck.
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Ohh and the other HUGE reason I prefer older rigs, less government involvement.

 

[IdaSHO]

I have what I consider the perfect 7.3 for my needs.


OBS F250 Extended cab with a D60 (kingpin) swap, 1-ton suspension, and 3:55's

Oh, and an AUTO trans. Not having to row gears is a blessing, in so many ways.

If you want good mileage with a 7.3 you do not need a manual trans. Just proper gearing. A good chip can help too.

The 7.3 has enough torque to go tall geared. Keep the RPMs down and the 7.3 will get fantastic mileage.


Even with the auto trans I often see 18+mpg empty and average 14-17 MPG rolling at 10,000lbs with the camper loaded.

 

[AFBronco235]

I don't know much about rigs after 96'/97', but I can tell you that "OBS" fords are my preference just because most of the issues that you may encounter have solutions. Also parts are easy and cheap to locate, usually in your local junkyard. Heck, some of the upgrades on my Bronco are from F350s I found in junk yards that bolted right in, a major advantage the Ford capitalizes on mercilessly. Also, say you want to do some interior upgrades. LOTS of good ways found on the internet. I just got done installing a Raptor center console into my 91' bronco which has a similar interior to the OBS F-series rigs you're looking at. I don't see why you couldn't do something similar for the wifey.

On the TTB front suspension, they're excellent. There are very few reasons why you would swap to a straight axle, but for my money, none of them are really worth it. You still get the strength, but with a smoother ride. The only real advantage a straight axle has over the TTB is in flex, but it sounds like you're building more of a camping rig than an hill climber so I don't think you'll have any issues with the TTB.

As for how easy it is to work on, its definatley easier than anything that requires a computer to fix. I don't know about diesels, but the gas engine computers from Ford have a "failure mode" that allows the engine to continue to run even when sensors and wiring fails, a major plus when you're in the middle of nowhere. Also, even if you get a rig with an auto transmission, bolting in a manual wouldn't be too difficult, or even swapping over to the newer drive train with the granny gear also wouldn't be outside he realm of possibility.

Surprisingly, the turning radius on the older Fords is better than anybody might expect. My old 91' F150 longbed could out turn a friends Subaru any time. He bet money on it and lost. It all has to do with wheel clearance and how the turn stops are set up.

 

[IdaSHO]

On the TTB front suspension, they're excellent. There are very few reasons why you would swap to a straight axle, but for my money, none of them are really worth it. You still get the strength, but with a smoother ride. The only real advantage a straight axle has over the TTB is in flex, but it sounds like you're building more of a camping rig than an hill climber so I don't think you'll have any issues with the TTB. .

Im going to have to assume that you are referring to 1/2 ton (coil sprung) TTB

3/4 and 1-ton TTB front ends are leaf sprung.

There is ZERO benefit for a TTB over a solid axle.


Less flex, WORSE ride, and requires more maintenance than the solid axle.

 

[jonb96150]

Thanks for the great info. I appreciate it a lot. I had an 89 f250 w/5 sp and gas v8. It wasn't a bad truck except for some module was prone to failure leaving you SOL. Learned real quick to carry a spare. And I smiled when it was mentioned about the lack of flex with the TTB front end, cuz it didn't take much to get air time under a front tire. A locker is on the list. It won't be a rock crawler but I definitely want at least one axle locked.

Thanks Korben for the great tips on OBS vs the next gen. I too like the less complicated rigs. As for old, all my stuff is high mileage. 97 Landcruiser 170k, 98 jetta tdi 200k, 99 Tacoma 185k.

In my state of Kommiefornia the OBS 7.3 is exempt from smog checks which is probably more important than I realize.
Thanks again guys for the insight!

 

[Korben]

I don't put down the TTB as much as most do, it's a solid concept as front axles go. As IdaSHO said the 1/2 ton version is quite good, though it still suffers alignment issues do to the Y steering linkage. But toss in a full swing and your golden. The D50 on the other hand is a dismal failure. The arms are shorter, one side is longer then the other, the leafs have near zero travel, are poorly designed, still has alignment issues and the center section and axles are no bigger then a 44. Only thing it has going for it is that it's the same as a 60 from the spindles(not the actual spindle) out so when it's easily replaced by a 60 you can use them as spare parts.
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Overall if you want a Powerstroke, a 96-97 F350 Crew Cab Short Box 4WD 7.3/5Spd is one heck of a quality long term investment if you can find and afford to get into one. They still carry a decent premium and will forever.
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My personal favorite factory truck would be a 94 F350 CCLB with a 5 speed and a 7.3 IDIT, it's the factory turbo version of the IDI, they are a MUCH better engine. 94 is also the first year of power windows on the rear doors, has the stronger 5 speed, and stronger rear axle. Only minor downsides are electrical speedo and BJ D60(both 92 up). Not too many kicking around though, and even fewer coming up for sale.
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Thanks Korben for the great tips on OBS vs the next gen. I too like the less complicated rigs. As for old, all my stuff is high mileage. 97 Landcruiser 170k, 98 jetta tdi 200k, 99 Tacoma 185k.

In my state of Kommiefornia the OBS 7.3 is exempt from smog checks which is probably more important than I realize.
Thanks again guys for the insight!

You're welcome, kinda funny they are exempt is Kommiefornia, the emissions stuff there is a HUGE pain. Washington is much easier in general but I guess not in this regard, a couple years ago I laughed when they made me "smog" my 89 diesel. Smog a 89 mechanical diesel, I was so perplexed when I got the notice. Turns out all they did was stick some fancy do-hicky that probably cost tax payers millions of dollars in the tailpipe that looked at how transparent the exhaust is at idle. Yup, don't smoke at idle, pass, well no S Sherlock, I can see that from here.
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I had an 89 f250 w/5 sp and gas v8.

You mentioned before one advantage to the 6 speed is that it has a granny low, I had assumed you meant that the granny low was a little lower then the granny in the ZF5 5 speed. However this got me thinking, was this truck a 5.0? If so it was probably a light duty version with the light duty M5OD transmission, vs. the ZF5 in the HD trucks.
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ZF5 Gas version (wide ratio)

1st 5.72
2nd 2.94
3rd 1.61
4th 1.00
5th 0.76
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ZF5 Diesel version (close ratio)

1st 4.14
2nd 2.37
3rd 1.42
4th 1.00
5th 0.76
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ZF 6-speed
1st = 5.79
2nd = 3.31
3rd = 2.10
4th = 1.31
5th = 1.00
6th = 0.72
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M5OD
1st = 3.90
2nd = 2.25
3rd = 1.50
4th = 1.00
5th = 0.80
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FWIW there's a fair number of people, myself included soon, who run the gas ratios behind a diesel. Two ways to do it, the gears swap or the tranny will swap. People will tell you that the 460 tranny won't bolt up to the 7.3, this is true, BUT it's not as hard as people say, ya drill two holes for two bolts. The dowels, all but 2 bolts, and the metal for the other two holes is there in the right spot, ya just need to drill it.

 

[AFBronco235]

Im going to have to assume that you are referring to 1/2 ton (coil sprung) TTB

3/4 and 1-ton TTB front ends are leaf sprung.

There is ZERO benefit for a TTB over a solid axle.


Less flex, WORSE ride, and requires more maintenance than the solid axle.

I'll give you the point on it being leaf sprung, however, I'm afraid I have to disagree on the maintenance side. It is slightly more complicated to disassemble, but only slightly and you definitely get a smoother ride. I have done ZERO maintenance on my TTB, other than to replace the bearings a year ago for preventantive reasons than anything, but you'd still do that with a straight axle. Name just ONE aspect of the TTB that requires more maintenance than a straight axle?

 

[IdaSHO]

you definitely get a smoother ride.

Wrong.

The leaf sprung TTB has a STIFFER leaf pack that the D60.

And not only do the leafs have to support the load of the truck, but they have to TWIST allowing the TTB to actually flex.

So have stiffer springs, and you have very limited up travel and droop.

You would be very hard pressed to find anyone that reports a worse ride with the D60 than the TTB, stock for stock.

Also, when going solid axle you have a world of choices for leafs, go for a shackle reversal, and things open up even more for an even better ride

With TTB, you have stiff, and stiff.

Name just ONE aspect of the TTB that requires more maintenance than a straight axle?

Easy. Ill give you two.

1. Axle pivot bushings.
2. Inboard U-joint

You have axle pivot bushings that are a substantial wear item, that create alignment problems.
Solid axles do not have these bushings. Actually, a solid axle itself doesn't have ANY bushings.

You also have one aditional u-joint inboard on the passenger side, that doesn't exist in a solid axle.
One more joint to worry about, and it is NOT easy to replace. It takes a substantial amount of work to get to it and do it right.



And if you do it like I did, you toss a King-Pin D60 under it when you go solid axle, and you eliminate ball joints altogether.

 

[Korben]

I'll give you the point on it being leaf sprung, however, I'm afraid I have to disagree on the maintenance side. It is slightly more complicated to disassemble, but only slightly and you definitely get a smoother ride. I have done ZERO maintenance on my TTB, other than to replace the bearings a year ago for preventantive reasons than anything, but you'd still do that with a straight axle. Name just ONE aspect of the TTB that requires more maintenance than a straight axle?

Can I play?
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The D50 stock definitely has a harsher ride, this is due to a very VERY small amount of up travel, the distance to the bump stop is only like an inch, and that's if the springs aren't worn.
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Maintenance, a third U-joint, 2 more seals, tires wear faster due to changes in toe, and springs need to be maintained/adjusted to ensure correct ride height for camber.
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Edit..... IdaSHO beat me to it, however to be fair...
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Leaf twisting isn't a big deal, solid axle leafs twist to, and they're stiffer due to the leverage of the arm, this doesn't necessarily translate into a stiffer riding spring.
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Solid axle stock actually has more or same number of bushings, you have to consider the track bar. A D60 has 8 bushings, a D50TTB 8 again, and a D44TTB only 4.
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I haven't, others have, and I personally think a leaf D50TTB would be HUGELY improved by a switch to spring under and rear shackle, do that and IMO you could really have something. I've never seen it done but I think adding an air shock setup to the front would do a fantastic job adjusting spring rate for ride height/camber issues. Not doing it though, my F250 is getting a KP D60.

 

[jonb96150]

"You mentioned before one advantage to the 6 speed is that it has a granny low, I had assumed you meant that the granny low was a little lower then the granny in the ZF5 5 speed. However this got me thinking, was this truck a 5.0? If so it was probably a light duty version with the light duty M5OD transmission, vs. the ZF5 in the HD trucks."

It had the 5.8 eng and full float rear axles reg cab.

"Overall if you want a Powerstroke, a 96-97 F350 Crew Cab Short Box 4WD 7.3/5Spd is one heck of a quality long term investment if you can find and afford to get into one. They still carry a decent premium and will forever."

In my searching for over a month I have yet to see this particular truck. And have only come across a couple ecsb trucks. This is mainly craigslist for pretty much all of Cali and Ore.
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"My personal favorite factory truck would be a 94 F350 CCLB with a 5 speed and a 7.3 IDIT, it's the factory turbo version of the IDI, they are a MUCH better engine. 94 is also the first year of power windows on the rear doors, has the stronger 5 speed, and stronger rear axle. Only minor downsides are electrical speedo and BJ D60(both 92 up). Not too many kicking around though, and even fewer coming up for sale."

I will add this to the search.

How spendy is it to add a turbo to a N/A 7.3 IDI? Any downsides to that?

Super appreciate your knowledge!:beer:

 

[njtacoma]

The crew cab short bed was an f250 only truck
Easy to swap the d60 to the f250 however for a great truck

They are the most expensive obs ford in my searches

 

[Korben]

In my searching for over a month I have yet to see this particular truck. And have only come across a couple ecsb trucks. This is mainly craigslist for pretty much all of Cali and Ore.

Yeah for a while I thought they were unicorns, and while still very rare it's been pointed out to me that they are apparently more popular/available in the mid west for some reason.
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Edit I think Neil is right, I can't be sure I don't look for them.
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How spendy is it to add a turbo to a N/A 7.3 IDI? Any downsides to that?

Ahhh now this is likely to start something, these days in many circles the IDI vs. PSD debate is up there with gas vs. diesel, Glock vs. 1911, Blonde vs. Brunette, etc.
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Price, well that has a lot of factors, the MAN these days in IDI performance is Justin Anderson. He'll sell you one of his kits and a turbo for $2,400 bucks, but it can certainly be done a lot cheaper, old Banks kits can be found for like 3-6 hundred, ATS kits for a bit more. The thing to get from him though for sure is an IP, diesels need fuel, the reason the IDI isn't known for power is it never had enough fuel stock, and fuel is provided by the IP. He's done A LOT of IP development. http://www.idiperformance.com/store/p32/Stage_1_Turbocharger_Kit.html
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Downsides no, absolutely no downside to putting a turbo on a NA IDI. Until you get to a point where you're going to blow a head gasket(won't with stock IP), then it's time for head studs and some of the newly developed gaskets, etc. etc.
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[stevo-mt]

I know I will catch some grief... But a F350 V10 is isn't too bad of deal for a truck that is going to be dragging a camper around. I know its not a diesel and they don't get the best mileage, but when you when you look at the price difference between the two you can sometimes find a sweet deal on the V10's. You will get lower fuel mileage regardless of the vehicle when you have a camper in it. It just might be the difference of 10 mpg vs 12 mpg. I was thinking about buying a super clean V10 just because you could save so much money, run it for a while, then re-power it with something else. When I was looking for a diesel you would see a powerstroke with a 250K miles and they would still want +$15K. I saw other F350 v10's in decent shape for half that. At that price there enough room to buy a reman powerstroke or cummins kit to put in it. In my opinion that is better option than something with a ton of miles and has dragged trailers it's whole life. We used to have a F350 v10 work truck with the heavy steel electricians truck box. It lived offroad at a mine for years and it performed well.

I ended up trading my dad out of his 1989 F350 7.3 N/A and love that truck. It will still pull any of my trailers just fine but isn't my expo rig. 140k miles and no issues since 1989 other than fuel injector o-rings drying out and leaking. The only time I've really noticed not having a turbo is if your about 5,000 ft elevation pulling a car hauler trailer up a mountain pass. It still does it great, but you have to slow down to 55-60 mph instead of 75 or 80... Either way get an F350 and don't mess around with those F250's!

 

[underdrive]

We got three IDIs - the factory turbo 6.5 (GM) moves pretty decent, the non-turbo 6.2 (another GM) is in a much lighter vehicle so it can for the most part keep up with the 6.5, and the non-turbo 7.3 (Ford) is in a very heavy truck so it's pretty much doomed to ride in the slow lane unless truck is pretty much empty in which case she can ride the overload speed governor in the hammer lane passing everything but a truck stop. A well-chipped PSD will run circles around any and all of these, we had a Superduty for a short while and it was stupid fun to drive and still got some real nice fuel economy.

Either way get an F350 and don't mess around with those F250's!

Idk about the F350 vs F250 thing, 3/4-tons do have their advantages:

- lower GVW, that could translate to lower registration cost and insurance. There are no factory towing limits, so you could in theory drag just about anything an 1-ton can, and as long as you're legit on the respective GAWRs and trailer GVW you're in the clear from the powers that be.

- same frame and rear axle (as long as it's not a LD 250, which the diesels won't be) as the F350, yes the front axle is somewhat weaker but that's an easy fix with the D60 swap if so deemed necessary. Btw the OBS and older D60 have poorly designed steering linkage and trac bar: the angle of the steering wheel changes as the front ride height changes (say when you load a heavy slide-in camper in the bed), and the tie-rods have a tendency to roll withing their joints before actually transmitting linear motion causing the steering wheel to float all the time. Trac bar issue got solved with the Superduties, the steering mess however didn't get fixed till the coil-sprung D60s came about in '05 IIRC. The TTB doesn't have either of those problems, yeah it wears tires faster but it handles better at speed than the older D60s and that steering wheel actually stays put most of the time.

- they could be had in CCSB version, 1-tons didn't get that. That 2ft shorter wheelbase does make for some noticeable difference in maneuvarability, which comes really handy out into the wilderness (one of out trucks is a CCLB that is 8ft wide rear AND front, there have been numerous occasions when one of us is driving while the other is hanging out on the front bumper giving directions).

Good call on the V10s tho, the price difference between a V10 and a PSD in the same condition can buy LOTS of gas for the V10, and you generally don't have to worry about cold weather starting issues which ensures you'll at least be able to head home if you happen to go camping way out there way out in the dead cold of winter.