Ford Ranger and Bronco Coming back! Crosses fingers

[AFBronco235]

I still don't get the whole fascination with a solid front axle. The Ford TTB is an excellent front suspension system that gets the best of both worlds. I've never had a problem with mine that you wouldn't have with a solid axle. Plus, the clearance on my Bronco with the TTB is already as high as many lifted jeeps, so unless you want a stupidly high (Uselessly high) clearance, there's no point in having a lift added, which is where a LOT of people start complaining about the TTB anyways. Otherwise, its a solid (HAHA) design.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

I still don't get the whole fascination with a solid front axle. The Ford TTB is an excellent front suspension system that gets the best of both worlds. I've never had a problem with mine that you wouldn't have with a solid axle. Plus, the clearance on my Bronco with the TTB is already as high as many lifted jeeps, so unless you want a stupidly high (Uselessly high) clearance, there's no point in having a lift added, which is where a LOT of people start complaining about the TTB anyways. Otherwise, its a solid (HAHA) design.

The TTB has the worst road manners of any design I have ever seen. It may be great offroad but its a POS on the street.

 

[Raylan Givens]

Bob was the guy along with another who designed and built Lil Blue. Based on the old Wagoneer IFS, reverse DeDion, etc, etc.
It was a cost no object deal and they said they spent 3 million in developement costs on the front axle. He also built and IFS 94 full size Blazer and claims 24 or 28 inches total front axle travel. Did it on his own and cost him 20 thousand. He explained it on an Australian website and I am still trying to visualize how he did it maintaining stock track width..

I have read a lot of his comments on what he did with the lil blue and what Jeep could do if they chose to go the IFS route. He doesn't seem to be on good terms with Jeep he does have a lot of knowledge so a consulting job with Ford seems believable.

 

[Woofwagon]

IF they bring back the Bronco or Ranger with a turbo diesel and manual transmission, I'll be interested. Also, the diesel has to be biodiesel compatible.

 

[4x4junkie]

The TTB has the worst road manners of any design I have ever seen. It may be great offroad but its a POS on the street.

This here (even though wrong) is exactly why I do not think a TTB is a good idea on any new vehicle. There just aren't enough people that understand well how it works, and it seems unlikely it will ever be understood as well as a solid axle is. Wrong or right, comments like this don't spread a good image of a suspension.

(And no this is not to say you didn't experience a bad-handling Ford plainjaneFJC, however I would almost guarantee it had much more to do with a poorly engineered lift kit that was on it (which happens to be a large majority of them), and/or it had been messed with and the alignment on it was screwed up (again, not uncommon given how most alignment shop techs seem to have little (if any) training on these suspensions, so they're left guessing on it).
I've written in great lengths on here and on other forums about this subject... A properly-aligned TTB suspension having proper angles on the steering linkage (linkage in phase with the beams) rides & handles better on the street than most any solid axle, and is on par with many OEM A-arm setups too. Again I know this from my 25 years of tinkering with them (and it wasn't mentioned, but it would have perfectly-normal tire wear too, another area where misconceptions are frequent). It's a shame really, because as you said AFBronco, it IS a great suspension that blends the best of both the solid axle and IFS worlds. But if few people have a good understanding of it... the vehicle will still be bound to fail.

 

[justcuz]

I have read a lot of his comments on what he did with the lil blue and what Jeep could do if they chose to go the IFS route. He doesn't seem to be on good terms with Jeep he does have a lot of knowledge so a consulting job with Ford seems believable.

Anybody who worked for Chrysler during the Daimler Chrysler years that had an opinion contrary to the Germans was not liked. German engineers thought they were the best and looked down their noses at their American counterparts, even though the opposite was true. Lots of good people were run off or quit Chrysler during that time. The German ego still over rules it's good sense, a good example of that is the latest VW debacle with the diesels.
We can probably thank those German pricks for single handedly ruining the light duty diesel market for years to come. As far as I'm concerned the Germans can take their attitude and their vehicles and shove them straight up their rectum.
Bob Sheaves is still a regular contributor to AllPar, an all things MoPar website. He regularly comments in the Jeep section.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

This here (even though wrong) is exactly why I do not think a TTB is a good idea on any new vehicle. There just aren't enough people that understand well how it works, and it seems unlikely it will ever be understood as well as a solid axle is. Wrong or right, comments like this don't spread a good image of a suspension.

(And no this is not to say you didn't experience a bad-handling Ford plainjaneFJC, however I would almost guarantee it had much more to do with a poorly engineered lift kit that was on it (which happens to be a large majority of them), and/or it had been messed with and the alignment on it was screwed up (again, not uncommon given how most alignment shop techs seem to have little (if any) training on these suspensions, so they're left guessing on it).
I've written in great lengths on here and on other forums about this subject... A properly-aligned TTB suspension having proper angles on the steering linkage (linkage in phase with the beams) rides & handles better on the street than most any solid axle, and is on par with many OEM A-arm setups too. Again I know this from my 25 years of tinkering with them (and it wasn't mentioned, but it would have perfectly-normal tire wear too, another area where misconceptions are frequent). It's a shame really, because as you said AFBronco, it IS a great suspension that blends the best of both the solid axle and IFS worlds. But if few people have a good understanding of it... the vehicle will still be bound to fail.

I was referring to original stock height models.

 

[Root Moose]

I was referring to original stock height models.

The problem with the stock / OEM TTB is that techs don't know how to align them and once the springs are old enough to sag the ride height gets messed up and.... techs don't know how to align them.

 

[RoyJ]

You don't think the old original Bronco had any charisma?

Oh for sure, they had tons of charisma, problem is, just like say, a Datsun 280z, only a handful of enthusiasts remember them for their heyday. Whereas everyone, young, old, male, female, knows what a Jeep is... (the sportscar version would be a Mustang)

Anybody who worked for Chrysler during the Daimler Chrysler years that had an opinion contrary to the Germans was not liked. German engineers thought they were the best and looked down their noses at their American counterparts, even though the opposite was true. Lots of good people were run off or quit Chrysler during that time. The German ego still over rules it's good sense, a good example of that is the latest VW debacle with the diesels.
We can probably thank those German pricks for single handedly ruining the light duty diesel market for years to come. As far as I'm concerned the Germans can take their attitude and their vehicles and shove them straight up their rectum.
Bob Sheaves is still a regular contributor to AllPar, an all things MoPar website. He regularly comments in the Jeep section.

A little harsh, but good points made.

As an engineer myself, I agree they're not always pleasant to work with, but must admit I have seen some damn impressive ones too!

It's mostly their engineering culture - overkill, over-complicate and over-stress every damn component. American engineering is about making compromises where make sense, and only go all-out when necessary. Every engineer has a secret tendency to go overkill, or test a design to its limit. But it's one thing to do it on a home project, it's something else in to do so in a professional design environment.

In the end, we end up with BMW chassis that need suspension bushings every 60k miles, because they just have to squeeze in an extra couple degree of camber and caster, for that ultimate steering response (which work wonders when it's new). E60 M5s with screaming V10s that last 100k, when they could've easily gave it an extra 1.5L and make it last forever (a 6.4 pushrod Hemi makes nearly as much power with half the complexity). Engines that need exotic 5W60 oil, valve train and heads that are nearly impossible to do at home, DOHC and dual wall headers on an oversquare puny 3.0L V8 that makes 215 hp and only revs to 6500 (******!?), the list goes on and on.

But, once in a while their overkill does pay off and crank out some solid products. Every seen the frame of a G-Wagen? Once you do you won't feel sturdy in any other SUV save for an H1.

 

[justcuz]

I'm harsh because I know the truth, humility is not a common trait in Germans. History has proved it, I grew up around a lot of German immigrants and I myself am half German. You think the Germans would learn after losing two major wars, that they are not a superior race and their egos outweigh their sensibilities. Nope they still have a snotty attitude. Are there exceptions? Of course there are, but for VW to think they could get away with this is completely indicative of their attitude of superiority over the lessor pions who they assumed would never figure the diesel scam out.

I recently read a study done on ease of repair on automobiles. American cars were the easiest, Japanese next with the European cars considered the hardest.

As far as the G Wagen chassis, I have never seen one, but since it and the Hummer were originally designed to be military vehicles, I have no doubt you are correct.

 

[RoyJ]

Well, here's a photo:

By comparison, here's a 1st gen 4runner frame from the same angle:

Now, if only Mercedes knew where to stop going crazy: take their frame and axles, slap on a Chevy 6.0 with HD 6L90 transmission, it'll be the most bullet proof and reliable truck ever...

 

[justcuz]

I'm convinced!
Very beefy and yes a simple OHV engine with great HP and even the 8 speed trans so they could raise the axle ratios for stronger pinions and lower the range of the t-case. Maybe even under drive high range like the Land Rover and a 3.5 low range.

Actually in California, GM had the LS engine and trans certified with CARB, so it is a legal transplant in any chassis. You could legally build a G Wagen as you describe in California.

 

[4x4junkie]

I was referring to original stock height models.

The problem with the stock / OEM TTB is that techs don't know how to align them and once the springs are old enough to sag the ride height gets messed up and.... techs don't know how to align them.

Precisely.
If these things had such crappy road manners as a rule, everyone would've been turned off any time they test-drove one. Obviously that wasn't the case because nearly every vehicle Ford put the TTB/TIB suspension under became a #1-seller in it's segment at some point.

Oh for sure, they had tons of charisma, problem is, just like say, a Datsun 280z, only a handful of enthusiasts remember them for their heyday. Whereas everyone, young, old, male, female, knows what a Jeep is... (the sportscar version would be a Mustang)

I guess I have a harder time thinking the Bronco is so forgotten when every time there is a thread that comes up talking about it's possible reappearance, it invariably goes 100+ posts/10+ pages (which is where this one seems to be heading as well). :-/

 

[Root Moose]

I guess I have a harder time thinking the Bronco is so forgotten when every time there is a thread that comes up talking about it's possible reappearance, it invariably goes 100+ posts/10+ pages (which is where this one seems to be heading as well). :-/

Don't forget that these Bronco threads are read by a niche group of a wheeling subgroup which in itself is a subculture of automotive gear heads which is probably a single digit percentage of the population at large.

So, yeah... don't read anything into that.

 

[4x4junkie]

Which happens to be the same subgroup that buys up all those Wranglers too.