Ford van questions. 460 vs the 7.3 idi

[kcernest]

I own a 93 ambo/van e350 idi Quigley 4x4 with about 75k on the odo. Almost exact to your question only mine's 4x4.

I have a Dana 60 LSD rear with 3.54's and get 13mpg no matter what. Well, got 14.5 once on real flat and slow land. I have the E40D as well.

It's not quick by any means but I can't imagine it ever quitting by how it feels.

If you do go with this swap, the first thing you should do is a coolant flush then add an external coolant filter with the NAPA coolant filter kit and get SCA added coolant filters. The only weak link with these is cavetation, the coolant with SCA's prevents that.

 

[why3zx]

Then how about:

http://www.bankspower.com/magazines/show/555-a-kick-in-the-gas


"In testing, Banks's engineers saw best gains of 68 rear-wheel horsepower, an 85 lb-ft increase in torque at the rear wheels and a 15-percent increase in mileage in this application."

seems like for the work and 1800$ it kind of factors out the gains, added to the fact that they do not make one that fits a class B with a 7.5 so there would be an unknown ammount of fab work involved.

Thanks for all of the insight everyone. what I think I am going to do is make the drive and go drive the van. See how it stacks up agains mine. Especially after talking to the owner it has some transmission issues with overdrive (likely an electrical issue on a A4OD) so we should be able to drive the price way down.

Kcernest, I have read a lot about the cavetation issues with these motors, thanks again for the insight. However seeing your mileage numbers does not make a positive to the swap, 2mpg would take a long time to justifty.

 

[Mwilliamshs]

E4OD and AOD are Ford trannies but there's no A4OD. AOD are light duty (think C4) and all mechanical. E4OD are heavy duty (C6 based) with electronic controls.

Good luck with the test drive. E4ODs can be made very reliable electrically speaking (FIPL is a known weakness and its quirky failures causes lots of unnecessary trans rebuilds). The electrical work is quite simple and they are already very good mechanically.

I think the 7.3 cavitation issue gets blown out of proportion because it's the ONLY issue with these engines. If they were prone to other common failures (CTD KDP for example) I think very few (on the whole) of them would be due to cavitation but since it's the only known weakness it gets a lot of press. My dad put 200k miles on a 7.3 IDI back in the 90s and never even heard of cavitation. My poor country high school ran the 7.3 IDI International busses to the tune of 150k in 5 years (long rural routes) all on 50/50 antifreeze from oreillys, and I know of several that were sold at auction and still in use by local farmers (seriously doubt they've seen a change since 1998) and I've had a couple myself, never heard of a failure from anyone I actually know. It's a good idea to check and maintain but it'd take major indications of a problem to scare me off a 7.3 or 6.9 I wanted.

 

[why3zx]

Yeah, just a mistype on my end. E4OD transmission. Basically a C6 with an electrically shifted overdrive stuck to the back of it.

Nice to hear Mwilliamshs I am going to give it a test drive, what are your impressions of the 7.3 IDI compared to the 7.5 gasser?

 

[Mwilliamshs]

I love the 7.3. I've had a few, driven a dozen or so, never had a bad experience. I've fixed or replaced glow plug relays and harnesses, fuel return lines, injector pumps and water separators but other than those cheap and easy parts, they've been trouble free with regard to diesel specifics. Water pumps, alternators, etc are the same labor-wise so nothing worrisome. I've driven and wrenched on 460s too and they're more maintenance intensive. IDI and 460 part prices are comparable if you balance ignition vs injection costs but the EFI 460 adds about $150-200 of sensors. The IDI only needs 1 wire to run.

My two best longterm apples to apples examples:

My dads crewcab dually (personal vehicle, not the one previously mentioned) owned 19 years, 200k miles, and I did 98% of the work on it. 1 clutch @ 190k, 1 injection pump @ 175k, glow plugs 4 times @60k 1st time then 50k each set preventatively, fuel injector return lines about every 3 years, few serpentine belts and tensioners, a starter, and 6 sets of batteries (every 3 years, preventative). That is all the underhood maintenance it ever got or needed besides filters and fluids. It moved a 5th wheel camper across the US for 2 weeks every summer, hauled hay and farm equipment, dozers, backhoes, boats, firewood, sod, etc but was not driven empty often AT ALL and was what my brother and I learned to drive in. Never a daily driver. Life average according to every fillup it ever got, 15mpg. Could do 20 empty if driven at 1900 rpm, zf5, 4:10 gears, 215/86-16s. It never failed us and never made me scratch my head or cuss. Just a good honest truck. I think it topped out at 90mph empty btw but would pull 10k at 75mph on the cruise control with the air on all damn day. Paid $23k in 93, sold for $5k in 2012 with 200k to a good friend. Still running strong pulling hay and horses.

Buddies 460 race car hauler, extended cab (split windows ******) dually, owned 14 years, 150k miles, I do all his work. Complete ignition replacement every 3 years or more often as needed (spark plugs, wires, coil, cap, etc), exhaust gaskets 3 times (stock manifolds, not headers. The 460 exhaust gets HOT towing), fuel pumps 3 times in tank and twice on the frame rail, 3 starters (due to hot exhaust I think), rear main seal once (leaker), fuel injectors twice now (leakers and mpg loss indicative of bad spray pattern or some such), 2 clutches, map sensors twice I think, same with tps, 02 sensors every 50k, battery every year I bet (leaves stuff on at the track a lot and never charges or drives it in the off season), battery cables at least 3 times, I went with him to get it new and saw it NOT hooked to his race trailer maybe 2 dozen times in all 14 years. If it's running, it's pulling 16k lbs. Life average according to his math and my experience, 4.5 mpg. Zf5, 4:10s, 235/85-16s.

They're both good working motors and the 7.5 was a lot cheaper new but in the used market I'd only buy a 7.5 if it was exceptionally clean or low miles and in a rig I really wanted.

EDIT: not applicable to AT but in full disclosure...

Every zf5 rig I've touched has needed the plastic(?!) clutch rods replaced due to breakage eventually. Dads old dually went through maybe 4, once immediately after driving Pikes Peak! I started replacing the slave and masters as a set cuz if one goes, the other is gonna go soon and you can prebleed them real easy this way. These failures require clutchless shifting and starting in gear (not cool at 15k gross!) but are the closest I've ever come to being stranded in the Fords.

 

[guidolyons]

1) I'd test drive the Ambo to see if you like the way it performs... You're looking at two engine swaps to pull off your plan. It'd be a tremendous amount of work to end up with a naturally aspirated 7.3.

2) fuel economy will likely not offset the cost in time & money.

3) I'd hold out for a 7.3 PSD with the 4WD T-Case, Axle, and Trans all in one package if it were possible. I've seen 4WD PSD trucks with asking prices of $2500, and one donor vehicle would save you a ton of money... Not having to resell your parts vehicle, a ton of time.

7.3 IDI is a real workhorse, mechanical diesel and very reliable. Obviously adding a turbo will help with the HP/TQ, but drive the 7.3 ambo and see what you think before you dive into a swap. The 7.3 has some real nice low end TQ.

A word of caution about sourcing a new(er) 7.3L Powerstroke from a truck...the van version 7.3L PSD is a little different than the truck version (intake/turbo/exhaust configuration), but I would definitely look at a 4WD truck for transmission, transfercase and axles.

The 7.3 IDI should get better MPG than a 460...but these days diesel cost more/gallon than regular. I have 7.3L PSD, ZF 5 speed, 4.10 gear ratio with 37" KM2 and get 17.5-18 MPG in my '65 Scout (6,000lbs). With a larger tire or a gear swap to 3.55s could easily get 20+MPG

 

[Mwilliamshs]

A word on the fuel mileage #s in my long post on page 2:

The 7.3 number is that of a guy buying his own fuel and that guy drives a ranger every day to keep the miles off his dually. It wasn't babied but it wasn't flogged.

The 460 was driven by a guy who is generally in a hurry. Either late for the races or getting home after them.

Both trucks were basically always loaded. The 7.3 was often loaded heavier than the 460, sometimes lighter, while the 460 was very nearly constant. Same trailer, same car, all those years. Every trip was over 100 miles one way on the interstate.

Also the gas and diesel zf5s have different gears (different powerbands too) but I think the ODs are the same or very close.

 

[why3zx]

Food for thought guys, thanks for taking the time to reply. Going to go drive the ambo as soon as I get the time to make the 5hr drive to see it.

 

[Mwilliamshs]

The Falcon van, which looks externally identical to a B190, that was posted from oilburners claims between 16 and 19 mpg. Seems about right with 2wd, E4OD, 3:55s, stock tires, etc. In my IDI experience 3:55 and 4:10 gears return almost identical mileage cruising lightly loaded. 3:55 allows faster travel speed but 4:10s are actually more efficient when doing real work because the engine doesn't lug and you don't shift as much (steadier RPMs, less up and down). These engines like 2000 more than 1800 rpm and with weight and air resistance of your B190 I don't think there is such a thing as cruising lightly loaded above 50 mph like an empty pickup can. If you swap the engine and gears I see no reason you shouldn't expect AT LEAST 15 mpg in all but the worst of conditions. It would limit your cruise speed though, difference of about 7-10mph at 2000 rpm.

I really do think an auto trans likes deeper r&p too. Less work for it to do, especially the TCC.

"its between 16 and 19, I got 16 towing the trailer in the picture with about 3000lbs in it cross country, it will do a bit better empty, around 17+, I have seen 19 for a tank occasionally, but that was usually lower than highway speed, like cruising 45-50 on back roads."

 

[cjken]

95 PSD mini-mod ambulance
4x4 37" tires
MPG 12-14
I try to keep it around 65 on hwy.
I have not calculated the MPG of my 93 2wd IDI but suspect it's around the same.
The IDI runs like a top but has a hard time getting out of its own way. I much prefer driving the PSD even with the 37's it feels much more responsive.

 

[Shocker]

I haven't driven VanDOOM hardly at all before I tore off the pulley system to swap, but I do own a 89 23' Winnebago Warrior. E350 chassis with 460 and C6. Our trip a few years ago was bout 2300 miles from WA to Disneyland and back via Yosemite and the average for the whole trip was 10.9mpg.

The 460 is injected. 235/85-16 with duallys. A/C on most of the time as well. Average speed was around 60 mph. Best MPG during the trip was during the trip through the San Joaquin valley at 13.8 mpg.

I have been wanting to swap out the 460 in VanDOOM, but it is hard to justify the costs and difficulty vs the cost of fuel. Now my rig is carb'd so I expect less MPG, but I will be working on that....after I get it back on the road...

 

[Mwilliamshs]

Shocker, you have a tach? Also, what rear-end ratio is in your motorhome? 4.10s would put you about 2600 (plus TC slip) while 3.73 would be about 2380 (again, TC slip not accounted for), both at 60 mph. It's sad when I've run these calcs so many times with different tires and gears behind my C6 (1:1) that I don't have to look them up LOL

 

[Shocker]

No tach on my rig. Not sure about the rear gears either. I would have to guess that 3.73 or under.

 

[surclay]

91 B-190 to 95 F-350 7.3 4x4 Chassie

Just a pic of my van, because I love my van!

WOW someone else has a B-190.I got mine a few years back from a friend its a 91. I have been thinking about swapping out the chassie with a power stroke 7.3 dully I found one with just over 100k Its a 1995. Does any body know if that will work? I need some help ! Thank you all! PS since this is expedition portal in 2013 I drove from lake tahoe to peru with my 100b ridgeback surfing the whole way it was a crazy experience with multiple cars, boat rides , muggins and being stranded in a fish village for 5 months . But thats another storie. This B-190 would be amazing for that drive but it needs a diesel 4x4 in it so can anybody help me find the write swap for it? thank you!

 

[Mwilliamshs]

...I got mine a...it's a 91. I have been thinking about swapping out the chassie with a power stroke 7.3 dully I found one with just over 100k Its a 1995. Does any body know if that will work?...

If, by "if that will work" you mean 'will it swap out simply and without large-scale modification/fabrication' then No, it will not work.
.
If what you mean is 'is it possible' then Yes, it's possible. It would require large-scale modification/fabrication and a complete re-wire of the engine bay and instruments because the 7.3 Powerstroke is a computer controlled engine and will require an ECU. An automatic that came behind that engine will also require its own computer or a joint PCM (trans computer and ECU in one unit). A manual transmission would be simpler electronically but would require obvious mods for pedals, shifter, etc. The frames differ GREATLY from truck to van.

.... This B-190 would be amazing ... but it needs a diesel 4x4 in it so can anybody help me find the write swap for it? thank you!

The easy diesel swap would be to a 6.9 or 7.3 IDI that was available in the van as original equipment. A complete donor vehicle is usually cheaper than buying parts individually and ensures you have all the parts you need, all at once. The easy 4x4 swap would be...whatever's easiest for you, probably leaf springs and a Dana 50, 60, etc.