Four Wheel Camper - A Review

[CMJ Rocky Mnt Toyota]

Questions about my Truck/Camper combo

Summer was good, but Fall has been even better... Two local trips this month have been highlights of our year so far. The first trip was to the scenic & remote Green River Lake, tucked up high in the Wind River Mountains of NW Wyoming.

Just spent 4 hours carefully reading the entire thread. GOOD WORK!

It seems that the more one investigates pop up campers with an off road theme that you will undoubtedly find your way to the FWC models - and eventually your thread on EP. First off I want to say THANKS for posting everything you have in such detail. From camper upgrades to trip reports you're attention to detail is excellent and am sure my thanks cover a lot of other folks out there with similar questions and concerns.

Currently:

I own a 2005 Tacoma TRD Access Cab, 6 speed manual. The vehicle sits on a 6" procomp suspension with coilovers up front and custom leaf springs in the rear - i used the add a leaf for a while but the stock springs in that truck are pretty lame even with the add- a-leaf and the new leaf spring packs are a huge improvement.

Anyhow, the truck is also sitting on 35" BFG MT's and currently have a snugtop cap that I have used as a mini camper for the last 5+ years -- and am now finally ready to upgrade! I live in Golden, CO and spend a lot of time exploring destinations above 10K.

I'm thinking that the FWC Eagle or Finch model would be best - I'm leaning more towards the Eagle unless someone can convince me that the Finch is actually the better model for my size vehicle. Another consideration is an ATC Bobcat but I like increased quality in FWC compared to ATC and think I will ultimately want to purchase FWC brand.

Questions:

Basically this is all about power for me. I know the suspension will support the weight and take me across the terrain I like to travel - lets face it tho, I'm not that hardcore and high clearance 4x4 roads are plenty for me. The truck is pretty much stock mechanically aside from the previously mentioned lift and an KN cold air intake and TRD cat-back exhaust.

When I lifted the vehicle and added 35" mud terrain tires the power and MPG went downhill. Simple, add that much more rolling mass compared to stock and the engine has to work harder to get and keep the truck moving. I did not experience such a decrease that caused big-time concern and decided not to do anything about it over the last 3+ years the truck has been lifted and riding around on 35" tires.

After speaking with my offroad shop I am pretty sure I am going to have the front and rear end gearing (ring and pinion) upgraded to bring the power and MPG closer to the way it was stock when it had much smaller wheels and tires.

What I'm wondering is if you think that will be enough? I'm not crazy about the cost in parts and labor to add the supercharger so that option is not high on my list.

My biggest concern is increased transmission temps. Second concern is MPG. Third concern is overall power and ability to climb up steep passes. The 4.0L 6 cylinder in the Tacoma is decent but just wondering how it will take an extra 1K lbs of "stuff". I thinking this is not going to stop me from purchasing a FWC but wanted to explore this issues before I shell out a large grip of cash for one of these units.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


Cheers :safari-rig:

 

[kcowyo]

What you think about travelling arround the world, which a setup like you have?

I would do it if it were required to take what I already have. But if I had the choice of what vehicle & camper to take, I would prefer to take something similar to a full-size Tiger Motorhome - a hard-side camper with a pass-thru from truck cab to camper, and a diesel engine. More interior room, onboard toilet & shower, better protection from weather & thieves, easier to stealth-camp if necessary and better fuel availability from what I've read.

How cold can get in the pop up camper can it be used in the winter?

The coldest night we've spent was 5*F. We have the factory installed heater which really helps. The Arctic-Pack soft-side liner helps too in cold weather conditions. Several owners use their camper as a "warming hut" at ski slopes and/or live out of them in the winter. The Turtle Expedition folks drove an early 90's model FWC across Siberia and they survived -40*F temps and worse... So camping in the winter can be done.

Does anyone have any experience with roof loads with a FWC?

Not me, but LuckyDan is correct, they do now offer roof lift assist struts to help considerably with roof loads and he has pointed you in the right direction with that link.

This thread is great and gives me hope...

Thanks Aaron. Hope you received my PM with some book suggestions. Best of luck with the move.

I'm leaning more towards the Eagle unless someone can convince me that the Finch is actually the better model for my size vehicle. Another consideration is an ATC Bobcat but I like increased quality in FWC compared to ATC and think I will ultimately want to purchase FWC brand.

Thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

Personally, I like the way the Finch fits the new Tacomas. They are a great match, and the potential to leave your tailgate on with a Finch could be considered a bonus by some. That said, every single square inch in these campers is precious. So I would lean towards the Eagle for that reason alone. And don't discount ATC - they do great work and build a fine camper. I was very pleased with the refurbishing work they did on mine last year.

Per your other questions, I can't really offer much insight there. I've only test driven a new Tacoma with the 4.0, and that was with stock tires & no weight in the bed. It was right off the dealer's lot, so my experience with the 4.0 is next to none. If you plan to keep your 35" tires than regearing absolutely makes sense, but I can't speak to how it will perform or what mpg's to expect.

There are a few new Tacoma & FWC owners on this forum (Jeff Wanamog, for one..) and WanderTheWest.com who might be able to answer your questions with real numbers and their experiences. Sorry I can't be of more help.

.

 

[CMJ Rocky Mnt Toyota]

And don't discount ATC - they do great work and build a fine camper. I was very pleased with the refurbishing work they did on mine last year.

Thanks for the reply. I almost feel like I'm eating my own words from last week now that I have done even more research. Long story short, I've decided that I actually want the ATC Bobcat. I think the base price (Brand New) of an ATC camper includes more and there seem to be a couple better designed features on the ATC Bobcat compared to FWC Eagle. I do like the Finch model and the idea that I could install an extra tire carrier, jack, jerry cans, etc where the tail gate is but in the end decided that the Bobcat/Eagle were best models.

Most folks have seen the FWC webpage comparing their products against ATC products: http://www.fourwh.com/FWCvsATCcomparison.htm - not all the their info is accurate, especially regarding price of extras that are actually included for free.

What I had not seen before was an ATC dealer in Arizona who had an explanation back on most of these topics, and what I actually felt to be a better argument: http://jayaronowcampersales.com/The_Facts.html

Just to add in another tid-bit of info I found: http://www.coyoterv.biz/ABOUT-US.html who is another manufacturer of popups I had not seen before and the original owner of FWC. Their "About Us" page is interesting.


My truck is going in tomorrow to have the front and rear end geared to 4:88.

I think at this point in time I will order one of these campers over the winter to have it ready first thing next spring. That will also allow me more time for research and to watch the used market should one that is up to my standards come up for sale.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Overland Hadley]

(Brand New) ATC Bobcat

New Bobcat features?

 

[Jeff Wanamog]

My .02

First, all three builders make a fantastic product. You can't go wrong.
All three have very good customer service. Stan from FWC is here all the time.

Due to my work, I have set my camper up more as a 4-5 day camper. Nobody on here uses their camper like Kcowyo. Yes, I am jealous.
So I am not the one to ask about living out of the camper for an extended period of time.

If you are worried about fuel economy, first nix the 35" tires. As you get used to wheelin with your camper on, I think you will find you will prefer a lower center of gravity. I have 2 1/2" of lift and my tires are 265/75 16 BFG A/T.
I get 13 mpg with the camper on. I have 4:56 R&P's and I cruise between 65 and 70 at the most. A wind deflector at the front of the camper helps a lot too.

Coldest I have been in my camper is 14 degrees and I don't have a Arctic Pak.
You will never tent camp again. I love my camper. I love being warm in the morning. Making coffee in my under wear. And when Moma doesn't come on the trip, I even keep the porta-potti inside. (wink-wink).

If you are planning on a swing out tire carrier to carry that big 35" spare, go with a FWC Finch. If not, the Bobcat or the Eagle is a great choice. If you have time and love to tinker, watch for the used ones for sale. There is a guy on WTW that posts all the used campers for sale and he is awesome at finding them. http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/878/

Hope this helps.
Jeff

 

[CMJ Rocky Mnt Toyota]

New features?

I'm talking about brand new campers as it looks like FWC has "upgraded" some of their features. Basically, stuff like the inside vs. outside flaps, one piece roof, what is included in base price, the base price itself, etc, etc. A lot of what is explained on ATC dealer, Jay Aronow' website. I know a lot of it is personal preference.

First, all three builders make a fantastic product.

Thanks very much for the detailed reply. I completely agree that all three builders make a great product and the decision comes down to personal preference and cost. Personally, I believe that anything beyond 14-15k for a midsized truck camper just gets cost prohibitive for what you get in return. I was over 15k to build out a new FWC exactly the way I wanted and right at 13K with same features for a new ATC. - Not to mention more standard features were included with ATC, screen door is a great example.

As for the wheels and tires they will pretty much stay on the truck forever and the new 4:88 gear ratio will help me get around a heck of a lot better. I've been thinking of doing the gearing for a while its just taken the camper to give me the extra push to get it finished.

Adding a custom fairing will probably be something I do when carrying the camper around and plan to drive no faster than 68mph. I have a great yard with a platform to store this camper so will probably only have the camper physically sitting in the truck when I'm using it bc installing/removing camper is pretty darn simple.

Thanks again for all the points of view :victory:

 

[CMJ Rocky Mnt Toyota]

Below is a response from FWC regarding some of the features on the new campers. This is great info and helps to make an educated decision. I'm torn to say the least.


<<All Terrain Camper's 2 piece pitched roof vs. 1 piece flat roof >>

All of the FWC have an aluminum roof frame that is arched with a special machine before the welding process. So the FWC is not flat, and we do pride ourself on having a "one piece roof skin" with no seam and no roof screws. Having a seam and 40 + roof attachment screws holding the camper roof to the roof frame has always been a possible source for roof leaks. FWC did not want that any longer. Our roof is also rated for 1000 lbs. FWC has that "custom built" machine. When Jeff & Marty left to start their own thing, they don't have that machine, so they need to put their own "twist" on it.

<< All Terrain Camper's Square door vs. radius door >>

When the square door got old, sometimes the corners would crack. The radius rear door does cost us a little more, looks nice & modern, and is a stronger. The square door is OK, but we like moving our campers forward, better, and into modern times.

<< All Terrain Camper's Fiberglass insulation vs. polystyrene foam insulation>>

The last time I looked, a roll of fiberglass batting was less $$ that the sheet of polystyrene?? Who is burning polystyrene inside the camper ? We have had customers in the past that were worried about breathing the the fiberglass behind the breathable headliner in the camper. I don't think the fiberglass batting is a better insulator. If it was, wouldn't the high end campers be using it? I don't see many (if any) camper manufactures using spun fiber fiberglass insulation anymore.

<< All Terrain Camper's 16,000 BTU Furnace vs. 12,000 BTU Furnace >>

Probably a mute point. Our customers seem to like the small furnace because it is very quiet.

<< All Terrain Camper's large sliding front window vs. small window>

They are probably right on this one.

<< All Terain Camper's outside storm flaps vs. inside storm flaps. >>

Four Wheel Campers built this camper from 1972 all the way until 1995 with NO storm flaps on the outside of the camper. How could we have the good reputation we we built all of those thousands of campers with leaking windows during the storms? (it is a silly argument). When FWC moved the factory to Woodland in 1996 they hired an outside company to build the pop-up liners for them. The tarp company in Sac could not figure out how to sew the windows like the guys in Colorado, so instead of doing it right, they put a bandaid on it (external storm flaps). In 2004 we hired in 2 full time sewers, got a sewing room together, bought sewing machines, and took about 6 month perfecting the FWC window so we could build them again without the storm flaps (like the good ol days). Most customers did not want to have to go outside the camper if they wanted to open a window, and a lot of customer were not tall enough to open the outside windows. FWC has build over 2000 campers since 2004 with NO storm flaps on the outside. It make for a very clean look, a lot less stitching, less velcro, and no leaks in the storms. If the windows were leaking you would hear and see posting on the forums all the time. People are very quick to note problems when they exist.

<< ATC's Extended Cabover Bed is standard (no charge) on All models! >>

ALL of the FWC come standard (no charge) with the extended cabover bed and also the additional slide out at NO charge.

<< ATC's Screen door is standard (no charge) on All models! >>

We do charge for the screen door.

ATC's large sliding front window is standard (no charge) on All models!

We charge for the front opening window on normal camper models, but on the shell models the FWC come standard with the front opening window.

 

[BillTex]

My .02

We are &#8220;hard-siders&#8221;&#8230;but can appreciate why some Folks like the pop-ups. I will offer some feedback based on many years of TC camping that relates to either PU or HS TC's, even though we have no dog in this fight;

<<All Terrain Camper's 2 piece pitched roof vs. 1 piece flat roof >>

All of the FWC have an aluminum roof frame that is arched with a special machine before the welding process. So the FWC is not flat, and we do pride ourself on having a "one piece roof skin" with no seam and no roof screws. Having a seam and 40 + roof attachment screws holding the camper roof to the roof frame has always been a possible source for roof leaks. FWC did not want that any longer. Our roof is also rated for 1000 lbs. FWC has that "custom built" machine. When Jeff & Marty left to start their own thing, they don't have that machine, so they need to put their own "twist" on it.

Less seams, holes, mounting point,etc= less opportunity for leaks. All campers are prone to leak over time and need maintenance. If you could eliminate a roof seam, I would consider this a major selling point. Leaks=ruined campers if not detected quickly. This alone might be a deal breaker for me.<< All Terrain Camper's Square door vs. radius door >>

When the square door got old, sometimes the corners would crack. The radius rear door does cost us a little more, looks nice & modern, and is a stronger. The square door is OK, but we like moving our campers forward, better, and into modern times.

I would agree with this, square corners=stress risers. We also have an AirStream, and some of the newer AS's that used square cornered lockers (versus the older radius corners) are experiencing cracks in the corners of the Aluminum. Remember; this is a structure that will be rockin' and rollin' down the trail!<< All Terrain Camper's Fiberglass insulation vs. polystyrene foam insulation>>

The last time I looked, a roll of fiberglass batting was less $$ that the sheet of polystyrene?? Who is burning polystyrene inside the camper ? We have had customers in the past that were worried about breathing the the fiberglass behind the breathable headliner in the camper. I don't think the fiberglass batting is a better insulator. If it was, wouldn't the high end campers be using it? I don't see many (if any) camper manufactures using spun fiber fiberglass insulation anymore.

See comments on leaks above-fiberglass batting+wet=bad. It happens. I did not think anyone was using fg batting any longer in RV's? This could also be a deal breaker for me.<< All Terrain Camper's 16,000 BTU Furnace vs. 12,000 BTU Furnace >>


Probably a mute point. Our customers seem to like the small furnace because it is very quiet.

Agree. Either will be plenty to heat a camper. Smaller motor=less power consumption.<< All Terain Camper's outside storm flaps vs. inside storm flaps. >>

Most customers did not want to have to go outside the camper if they wanted to open a window, and a lot of customer were not tall enough to open the outside windows.

Makes sense to me. Why would I want to venture outside in nasty weather to adjust windows?
<< ATC's Extended Cabover Bed is standard (no charge) on All models! >>

ALL of the FWC come standard (no charge) with the extended cabover bed and also the additional slide out at NO charge.

North/South bed= no climbing over your partner. This could be good or bad&#8230;depending on your partner!<< ATC's Screen door is standard (no charge) on All models! >>

We do charge for the screen door.

I would want a screen door. Even if it cost $I am sure you would be thrilled with any TC you purchase&#8230;they are awesome! But go slow, and think about how long you might own this and what your expectations are. Guys like KC really put them to the test&#8230;

Good luck, Bill

 

[kcowyo]

Due to receiving several PM's with questions about using/owning a Four Wheel Camper that I may not have addressed in this thread, I want to share the following PM and my response. I think the questions and my answers are valid and may provide insight & information to anyone else in a similar position while researching the best options for their camping experience -

I've been reading your adventure of when you first purchased you 4wc Eagle.
Now picture your Mom trying to put up the pop-up and can she do it?
I've been exploring for the last 8 years in my 2002 Subaru Forester from the Southwest, California Mountains to the Artic Circle in the Yukon and Alaska camping and sleeping in my Forester. The last trip this past Mar was the final one I can manage in the Forester. Turning 65, I can't be a pretzel anymore or an icecube. It went down to 30F overnight in Joshua Tree NP.
I'm looking at a 2009 Toyota Tacoma 2.7L 4 cyl 2x4 access cab truck and have found the Eagle by 4wc or the Bobcat by ATC will fit it. Now if I get one of these pop-up campers, will I be able to open the pop-up by myself because I'm the only one there. I travel solo and am 5ft 2n tall with shoulder and neck problems.
How much strength does it require and how difficult is it to open the outside clasps?

Thank you in advance. I really need someone to answer these questions before I go ahead with a big purchase for the truck and a new camper. I can't find any used especially in Canada.

And my response - *special thanks to Jeff Wanamog and suntinez for use of their photos which I blatantly stole from their threads to illustrate my points.

******************************************

65 and 5'2.. I bet you're adorable!

These campers are wonderful for staying warm & comfortable at night. The factory does now offer a "lift-assist system" to make raising & lowering the roof easier because it is heavy and awkward. This consists of two small struts, like a shock absorber, that they install on both sides of the camper, on the outside. These operate just like the struts on the rear hatch of your Forester, so you're not lifting all that weight by yourself, plus letting the hatch drop slowly when you pull it down. Here's a photo for example -

And another view of the same camper with the top opened and the struts extended -

These really do help, especially with lowering the top which is actually the hardest part of opening & closing the top. You can literally push the top up with these with only one hand, just like the rear hatch on your Subaru. Closing it, especially when the camper, struts & soft-sides are new and a little stiff takes a little more effort until everything has been broken in.

Closing the outside clasps is super simple, you can do it with one hand, although at 5'2 you'll probably need a step-stool of some kind to reach them.. no offense! Here are a few photos -

They are simple tension clasps, very easy to do - 2 on the front, and 2 per side. When the camper is new, the soft-sides are sort of stiff, so you may need to tuck the some of the sides in before you close the clasps. But as the materiel breaks in, the soft-sides fold in much easier with minimal to no tucking required.

Now all that said, I'm going to be very honest with you. I do get asked questions similar to yours by single women travelers fairly often. Particularly if these campers will work for someone with neck/back/shoulder problems, or what would I recommend for the solo woman on the road. I am hesitant to recommend these pop-up truck campers... The bed requires crawling up onto, there are no potty facilities unless you buy a cassette toilet, crawling in and out of the tiny door is hard on the head & knees, and installing & removing the camper from the truck is a pain in the rear end - although the factory will install it for you initially. In addition, some smaller trucks like the Tacoma (and mine), require additional modifications to the suspension, like airbags and stiffer tires to handle the weight of the camper. It is a slippery slope...

I would strongly recommend taking a visit to the Canadian FWC dealer in Vancouver, BC. Gary is a great guy, very knowledgeable and should have a couple of demo units on hand that you can check out in person. At one point he even had a rental program so you can try one out before deciding to purchase.. Here is a link to his website - Morrisey Industries

The one vehicle/camper I most recommend to a single female is the Tiger Provan GT. It is a small camper on a mini-van chassis, with all of the amenities, including a potty & shower. These have a pop-up roof like the FWC, but they use the interior space much more efficiently. For comparison, my FWC and forum member Linda's Tiger -

And with the top down -

It is easy to drive & park, has a much bigger door to the camper, a ladder to crawl into bed, good gas mileage, a reliable engine that any mechanic can work on if it has issues down the road and they are so comfy inside. And Linda has since added the same lift-assist struts to her Tiger's roof that FWC uses and she loves them with her bad shoulder. They stopped making these in '05 or '06 I believe, but it's fairly easy to find near new used models out there for a good price, certainly a lot less than a new truck & FWC would cost. You could keep your Subaru for driving around town even, although these Tigers are easy enough to drive around town if you choose.

Just a suggestion and food for thought... but since you asked what would I recommend to my own Mother if she were travelling around by herself, the Tiger Provan GT would be my top choice. If you would like to get her feedback, Linda's username on this forum is "suntinez" and I know she would be happy to chat with you about her experiences. Tell her KC recommended her as a great resource for these campers.

Hope I haven't overwhelmed you with info, but that I was able to answer your questions. Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions, I would be glad to help!

- KC

 

[Northern Explorer]

Good reply KC.

 

[kcowyo]

No good deed goes unpunished, eh David?

No worries.. it was an inconsequential comment on a secondary forum.

But thanks for your comment. I enjoyed it and appreciate it very much. :beer:


Moving on -

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[chadlanc]

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Wheres this at?

 

[Sgt.Kilroy]

Just spent 4 hours carefully reading the entire thread. GOOD WORK!

...my thoughts exactly. My wife has been commenting once per hour that "you must have to pee you've been sitting there so long..."

My first post on ExPo had to be here KC.

Thanks for all of your hard work.

 

[kcowyo]

Wheres this at?

The Absaroka Mtns, in NW Wyoming.

...my thoughts exactly. My wife has been commenting once per hour that "you must have to pee you've been sitting there so long..."

My first post on ExPo had to be here KC.

Thanks for all of your hard work.

Thank you very much and welcome to ExPo. I don't want to be responsible for you going into kidney failure so by all means, take a break and come back


I'm a little behind here in updates and trip photos which I will try to catch up with soon. Over the Winter & Spring we have been fortunate to visit Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah and a couple of trips here in Wyoming.

I'm happy to report that the camper continues to do well in all scenarios; high winds, hard rain, bitter cold and snow. To date not a single leak in wet weather. The furnace is still operating well in single digit temperatures although the ignitor is getting a little ornery with me... On a couple of occasions the fan comes on but blows only cold air. Turning the furnace on & off 2 or 3 times seems to do the trick and the heat eventually comes on but it's something that will need to be addressed sooner than later. Considering it's age and the amount of use, I can't complain.

To follow up on the addition of new 2" sleeping pads last June, I'm sad to report that they were a complete waste of money. They offer no more support than the pads they replaced, so that was $40 down the drain. I have taken to bringing a roll-up egg-crate sleeping pad with us, which I lay on top of the pads and that helps some. All other upgrades from last year were worth the time & money and have proven to be smart options.

Until I have time to do more thorough trip reports, I will share a few photos from our travels over the last 6 months -


Arizona with friends -

Approaching Saline Valley in Death Valley NP -

Winter in the Tetons -

Lonely lake in Wyoming -

Valley of Fire in Nevada -

Utah in the Spring -

Easter morning in Utah -(which marked our 5 year anniversary of ownership, btw)

 

[upcruiser]

Winter in the Tetons -

That my friend, is an amazing shot! :drool: