Four Wheel Camper Flatbed Conversion
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SChandler
Adventurer
I believe this is the thread that Bike Mech is referring too: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=933305
This is another detailed build where both Sikaflex and 3M tape were used: http://www.robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/index.php. The builder did a lot of documentation of the build process, I know he discussed how to keep the panels square and stuck to the walls while the adhesive set.
This is another detailed build where both Sikaflex and 3M tape were used: http://www.robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/index.php. The builder did a lot of documentation of the build process, I know he discussed how to keep the panels square and stuck to the walls while the adhesive set.
westyss
Explorer
Just thought I would chime in here on the adhesive topic, the way I see it tape needs to have a very even flat surface, if there are dips and valleys the tape wont make contact, so prep of the surface is important.
With an adhesive like Sika 252, there will not be a need to prep the surface as if there is a dip or valley just load up the Sika enough for the two surfaces to make contact, no need for clamps......there wont be much time involved waiting for the Sika to grab and hold, 5-10 minutes to get the piece into position, a little push to make good surface contact between the two and thats it, if the piece is large and heavy then a way to prevent the panel from sliding due to gravity, but that time is short. What is ideal is to have an adequate amount of gap between the two surfaces to provide expansion and contraction space, I used about two millimeters or so for aluminum onto fiberglass for different rates of expansion between the two different surface materials, if the materials are quite different then a larger gap is needed, with this technique done correctly the outer panel wont oil can as much because the Sika's flexability will move just that little bit.
There are pros and cons with everything but if strength is a concern go with a good product like Sika 252, the strength is far superior to something like a rivet, unless you do want something removable, then go with rivets, Sika 252 will NOT come apart, you will need to literally destroy a panel to get it off!
With an adhesive like Sika 252, there will not be a need to prep the surface as if there is a dip or valley just load up the Sika enough for the two surfaces to make contact, no need for clamps......there wont be much time involved waiting for the Sika to grab and hold, 5-10 minutes to get the piece into position, a little push to make good surface contact between the two and thats it, if the piece is large and heavy then a way to prevent the panel from sliding due to gravity, but that time is short. What is ideal is to have an adequate amount of gap between the two surfaces to provide expansion and contraction space, I used about two millimeters or so for aluminum onto fiberglass for different rates of expansion between the two different surface materials, if the materials are quite different then a larger gap is needed, with this technique done correctly the outer panel wont oil can as much because the Sika's flexability will move just that little bit.
There are pros and cons with everything but if strength is a concern go with a good product like Sika 252, the strength is far superior to something like a rivet, unless you do want something removable, then go with rivets, Sika 252 will NOT come apart, you will need to literally destroy a panel to get it off!
Thank you for all of the great comments. I think the tape is out of the picture due to local availability, cost, and the comments westyss made. I found a local supplier for Sika, so if they have Sika 252 I will consider using it. I really want to mount these panels this weekend and if I can't find the adhesive I may still use rivets.
Another concern I have about adhesives is that an adhesive is only as strong as the material you apply it to. So since the E-Panels are coil coated I am interested in knowing the strength of the coating. If I was to use the adhesive and the coating was to fail then the panels could fall off. In the F700 build on pirate he mentioned if the tape failed he would just rivet the panels on. I would love to get a sample of Sika 252 and test it on scrap pieces.
The smooth look has become more appealing to me. The corner caps would look great without rivets.
More updates to come.................
Another concern I have about adhesives is that an adhesive is only as strong as the material you apply it to. So since the E-Panels are coil coated I am interested in knowing the strength of the coating. If I was to use the adhesive and the coating was to fail then the panels could fall off. In the F700 build on pirate he mentioned if the tape failed he would just rivet the panels on. I would love to get a sample of Sika 252 and test it on scrap pieces.
The smooth look has become more appealing to me. The corner caps would look great without rivets.
More updates to come.................
I worked with a industrial company making traveling exhibits for various industries.......one of the exhibits we did was put together entirely with adhesives and 'contact' tapes and sheets . 3M and Locktite sent out 2 groups of techs to demonstrate these products. Once we had put together dozens of sheet goods together they challenged us to pull them apart by what ever means we could and since we had a huge well equipped shop we were able to get really creative. Not one of the bonded samples were able to be separated w/o destroying the products we had put together.
One of our smartasses put both of his hands on a film bonded to a table.....we thought he was going to loose the skin form his palms but 3M had seen this before and were able to save his butt with their experience.
I would not hesitate to bound anything w/ the right glue adhesive or tape.........amazing products out there today!
One of our smartasses put both of his hands on a film bonded to a table.....we thought he was going to loose the skin form his palms but 3M had seen this before and were able to save his butt with their experience.
I would not hesitate to bound anything w/ the right glue adhesive or tape.........amazing products out there today!
xxfullsailxx
Observer
i think the ratchet straps are the most reasonable idea...but i'm going to throw out a couple others...
use a combination of rivets AND adhesive...i assume you're going to "trim" the corners with something so your rivets could run every 12"-18" around the edges and then use them every 24" in the centers of each panel along with the adhesive...
OR...
i realize it's a cumbersome structure...but with a little (lot) of help you could use gravity and tilt the camper on to the final side for pressure...not sure if you have the clearance and/or space...
or just rivet the thing since you got a sweet new pneumatic rivet gun! it'll look good any way you go...
Bike Mech: The Endurance is an incredible story...great quote.
Edit: OOORRRRRR...maybe i am way too late and a lot of other smarter, more experienced people have already weighed in!
use a combination of rivets AND adhesive...i assume you're going to "trim" the corners with something so your rivets could run every 12"-18" around the edges and then use them every 24" in the centers of each panel along with the adhesive...
OR...
i realize it's a cumbersome structure...but with a little (lot) of help you could use gravity and tilt the camper on to the final side for pressure...not sure if you have the clearance and/or space...
or just rivet the thing since you got a sweet new pneumatic rivet gun! it'll look good any way you go...
Bike Mech: The Endurance is an incredible story...great quote.
Edit: OOORRRRRR...maybe i am way too late and a lot of other smarter, more experienced people have already weighed in!
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chris_the_wrench
Fixer & Builder of Things
Did you find a price for the tape? I haven't researched it that close yet.
The corner caps on that build on pirate were quite impressive to me.
-Chris
The corner caps on that build on pirate were quite impressive to me.
-Chris
Take a scrap piece and use a knife/saw to remove some of the core from a corner, then grab the two skins with pliers and see if you can peel them apart. If the delaminate fairly easily you have your concern, if you can't pull the sheet off I'd feel pretty good about it I think.
I am not too worried about the panel delaminating...I am more worried about the bond the paint has with the aluminum.
The local Sika suppliers do not have the 252 in stock. I may go to the local hardware stores and see what other kinds of polyurethane adhesives are available. But it is looking like I may be sticking with the rivets.
More progress.....
I ordered 5 cartridges of Sikaflex 252. After all of my research I hope it is the best for my application. Our local Lowes carried a SikaBond Universal that was an elastic adhesive, but I couldn't find any reviews on it and Sika Industrial Customer Service couldn't answer any of my questions, because the SikaBond is from their construction line up. It wasn't a true polyurethane, so that is why I went with the SikaFlex 252. I can not wait to see how much of a mess I can make with the adhesive. :sombrero:
Today I cut the drivers side panel.
I also made the mount for the propane tanks. I'll probably install 2 eye bolts and a cam strap to hold down the tanks.
Test fit the tanks and heater. I am reusing an old hydro flame that is the best camper furnace I have ever used. Venting it is going to be the fun part.
I ordered 5 cartridges of Sikaflex 252. After all of my research I hope it is the best for my application. Our local Lowes carried a SikaBond Universal that was an elastic adhesive, but I couldn't find any reviews on it and Sika Industrial Customer Service couldn't answer any of my questions, because the SikaBond is from their construction line up. It wasn't a true polyurethane, so that is why I went with the SikaFlex 252. I can not wait to see how much of a mess I can make with the adhesive. :sombrero:
Today I cut the drivers side panel.
I also made the mount for the propane tanks. I'll probably install 2 eye bolts and a cam strap to hold down the tanks.
Test fit the tanks and heater. I am reusing an old hydro flame that is the best camper furnace I have ever used. Venting it is going to be the fun part.
xxfullsailxx
Observer
nice!
so those tanks are driver-side front? i suppose there'll be an exterior access hatch in the e-panel? will they be under a bench or cabinet? more interior details!
cool to see your heater...i am wondering if i have the same one as i've only seen the front of mine...we had a carbon monoxide scare last year, i've been meaning to email stan@fourwheel about it...
are you going to use the rivet's too or just the glue?
so those tanks are driver-side front? i suppose there'll be an exterior access hatch in the e-panel? will they be under a bench or cabinet? more interior details!
cool to see your heater...i am wondering if i have the same one as i've only seen the front of mine...we had a carbon monoxide scare last year, i've been meaning to email stan@fourwheel about it...
are you going to use the rivet's too or just the glue?
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chris_the_wrench
Fixer & Builder of Things
The panels look great. I'm really looking forward to hearing how you do and seeing the results of the adhesive!
Keep it up
-Chris
Keep it up
-Chris
Yeah the tanks are driver side front. I made room for two tanks, but probably will only carry one unless I am going on a long hunt or ski trip. I'll be able to store a small outdoor grill in the void tank spot. There will be an outdoor access door and the tank area will not be accessable from the inside. Over the tank storage area will be a small shelf. There will also be a small window above the propane tanks. The shelf/window combination is for a small 12v swamp cooler I built several years ago. We often do a lot of desert camping at Elephant Butte Resevoir and having a swamp cooler for the nights makes sleeping so much better.
The heater is not the original one from the FWC. This one came from an old Holiday Rambler. I like it because it does not have a fan and it works great on the low setting....plus it has a themostat. As for CO, my uncle has a awesome little personal air quality monitor "for mine workers"....it works great and is very sensitive....I am going to try to find on for the camper.
I plan on just using glue.
Ok enough typing and I am off to the garage...more pics tonight...
Glue is not here yet.....so I'll let you know once I stick them.
If I need to replace a panel I'll just build a new camper....