Frame Strength, Who to Believe! The RV Sales Guy or the New Truck Dealer? Maybe Neither?

[Mickey Bitsko]

^ are you saying a person cannot buy what they want?
It's none of anyone's business if a person wants to be stupid.
Happens all the time.
Remember the Tacoma guy that's 1500 lbs over gvw? His thread is still on here,
And members are encouraging him to continue his reckless behavior..
You can't fix..you know.

 

[jbaucom]

One can only buy a new camper from a licensed dealer, right? Dealers who sell a camper to a customer that is 2500lb too heavy for the customer’s truck shouldn’t be held liable?

Not defending any dealer, but that camper probably wasn't too heavy for that truck when it was purchased. Based on Ram's towing/payload charts, that truck should have a payload between about 5,000-5,500 lbs, depending on options. Without knowing how the camper was optioned, the manufacturer's dry weight spec is a bit under 5,000 lbs. The owner made that camper too heavy for his truck when he loaded it up and hung a bike off the back. He could have looked at the size of the water tanks in the brochure and done the math for added water weight. This is 100% on the owner. If he truly believed that the truck's payload was ~7,800 lbs, then that means he never bothered to look at the sticker inside his door, or to ask where to find the payload spec for his truck. All payload/towing guides from all automakers are clear that the weight spec listed varies based on options. The manufacturer's brochure for those campers specifically states that it is the customers responsibility to ensure they don't exceed their vehicle's GVWR/payload, GAWR, or tire capacity (see pages 13-14 in the following brochure).

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d71580be71af8000101321c/t/5ffcee9c6ffcd94ec108e2de/1610411707694/Eagle+Cap+Brochure+2020+Small.pdf

 

[rruff]

Why is only one party on one side of this transaction liable?

Because he is the only one with skin in the game. He bought it, he's using it, and if he disregards the truck manufacturer's specifications, and it fails... it's his problem.

No reason to bring any other people into it. Keep it simple.

 

[rruff]

 

[Over The Silent Planet]

Because he is the only one with skin in the game. He bought it, he's using it, and if he disregards the truck manufacturer's specifications, and it fails... it's his problem.

No reason to bring any other people into it. Keep it simple.

The reason to bring someone else into it is if they recommended a dangerous trailer. That person, who stands to profit from the recommendations they make, should have skin in the game, too. It’s a pretty glaring conflict of interest. If it’s documented that a salesperson made a recommendation for a trailer that is too much for the customer’s truck, and some accident or failure occurs because the truck is overloaded because of that salesperson’s recommendation, I think that salesperson should lose their license.

”But the buyer should have known the salesperson was lying,” is what it sounds like y’all are saying. Would you say the same of a doctor who recommends a procedure that is profitable to himself but his patient doesn’t actually need and puts the patient at risk?

“So now we’re comparing doctors and RV salesmen?! “ Only in the sense that both are in a professional position to make recommendations that put their customers in real danger.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

The customer already bought a "waiver" when they signed for the

Yeah. IF the salesperson recommended that camper or upsold the guy, I think he should be at least partially responsible. I know that in Kentucky at least, every salesperson at a dealership must maintain a dealer license.

Seems that an easy way to prevent stuff like this from happening would be to record every weight and capacity of the individual truck and the camper that will go on it, as a record for future potential issues. Make the customer sign a waiver if he insists on buying a camper that exceeds his door jamb numbers. And if the licensed salesperson pushed for the bigger sale that led to catastrophic failure or even injury or death, hold them liable as well. They should lose their license at minimum.

Putting some liability on the table for dealers for the recommendations they make to customers will make their recommendations change overnight. They’ll all of a sudden become actually knowledgeable about weights and capacities.

The customer already signed a "waiver" when they signed for that particular truck and warranty

 

[calicamper]

I’m going to be rather cautious about how I describe the following scenario, to try to protect the innocent. The pictures below tell a very interesting story of frame failure on a newer, full-size heavy duty pick up truck.

If I understand the dialogue correctly, according to the owner of the truck involved, the dealer of the huge camper he mounted on it as well as the dealer for the new truck he bought, both represented to him that the truck would surely be sturdy enough to safely carry this very large, heavy camper. However, after about 25,000 miles of pleasurable adventures, the reality of a bad road finally begged to differ and reared its ugly head and looks to have painfully proved all three of these parties wrong!

The owner of the truck, in the story referenced below, indicates his belief that the cargo weight capacity of this otherwise sturdy looking truck was sufficient for the load it was going to be carrying. The reporter of the published story though seems to offer a different view and mentions that that CCC number was probably for a different version of the truck, one with a smaller cab…and further that the actual weight capacity for the wrecked truck involved was most likely less than what everyone thought it was.

At any rate Mopar, the factory warranty provider, allegedly disagreed with them all and declined to cover the quoted $17,000 in repairs. So one would have to conclude that buyer beware still remains the cri de coeur of the day.

And so dear readers, the pictures provide an expensive reminder of the need for big rig buyers to triple check their CCC and COG numbers before settling on a final decision for a truck camper combo.

In this austere, reputable forum, experienced and merely opinionated contributors frequently and hotly debate the inflammatory issue of whether a member’s truck is overloaded with the gear package chosen for it is or is a deadly dangerous timebomb putting self and the public at large at risk. This story certainly is unlikely to settle these arguments, so rage on my good fellows, rage on!

View attachment 758544View attachment 758545View attachment 758546

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/aut...ll-overload-a-big-truck/ar-AA15MPD2?ocid=EMMX

TFL just did a talk on this truck. Basically it was overloaded and had 30,000 miles of abuse at overloaded weights.

 

[Todd780]

Would you say the same of a doctor who recommends a procedure that is profitable to himself but his patient doesn’t actually need and puts the patient at risk?

Are you saying that doesn't happen?

Or that a doctor won't prescribe a specific drug even though they might get a kickback from big pharma?

 

[Todd780]

TFL just did a talk on this truck. Basically it was overloaded and had 30,000 miles of abuse at overloaded weights.

Good thing they did a talk on it. Otherwise I wouldn't have know it was overloaded. If there was some kind of picture of the load to go by I might be able to guestimate..... Oh. Right. I guess they needed to weigh in to get some clicks.

 

[AbleGuy]

”But the buyer should have known the salesperson was lying,” is what it sounds like y’all are saying. Would you say the same of a doctor who recommends a procedure that is profitable to himself but his patient doesn’t actually need and puts the patient at risk?

“So now we’re comparing doctors and RV salesmen?! “ Only in the sense that both are in a professional position to make recommendations that put their customers in real danger.

I hear what you’re saying and completely understand the point you’re trying to make. Where I would differ from your argument though is, in the first place a doctor is considered to be more of an expert and thus is expected to know more and be more honest to his/her patients.

Secondly, and sadly, I think that the unfortunate truth is that none of us should really take the word of someone who’s trying to make a commission off of us. Salesman are just that… Salesman! In most situations, they shouldn’t be held to be, or pretend to be, experts in regards to the products or services they are trying to get us to buy from them.

People are now spending as much money to buy camping rig combos as they spent on buying new homes not too many years ago, but not fact checking their purchases as they would have with a home. As a real estate investor, I’ve always known that it was up to me to always do my own due diligence, and to dig deeply for accurate, important facts involving the properties I’m considering buying, because I also know that I cannot and should not rely on the self serving statements made to me by sellers or their agents.

This cautious approach should be used for many other purchase scenarios. And the more money one plans to spend/invest on a purchase, the more critically important it is for that person to do his own due diligence. In too many cases though, people are too hurried or lazy (or ???) to do this.

Through the years there have been innumerable unsuccessful lawsuits filed in our courts based on ‘misrepresentations’ made to buyers in the marketing statements coming from manufacturers and/or the oral/written claims emanating from the sellers of goods and services. The courts usually have looked at this issue from the perspective of whether it actually was reasonable for the buyer to rely on the advice or information given to him/her by the marketing or sales staff, and frequently have held it was not.

The history of fraud cases in business shows that the courts have given an enormous amount of leeway to sale people who make erroneous, exaggerated, or even completely false claims about the goods and services they are hawking. Outright “puffery” in the issuance of these claims has too often been protected.

So knowing all of this, it is extremely important for, and ultimately the duty of all buyers to do their own due diligence to determine whether a product or service actually does meet their needs or satisfies their intended use. It totally sucks that people will boldly lie to your face to try to separate you from your money…and get away with it, but that’s the way of the world and something intelligent people always keep in front of themselves when buying expensive or important items.

The doctrine of Caveat Emptor has been around for centuries and our understanding of it got even more clarified by English Common Law rulings in the 1800’s. Many scholars argue that this concept actually dates back to early Roman Civil Law. In any event, this basic rule of commerce certainly is nothing new.

 

[rruff]

...to be legal.

Being over GVWR isn't illegal, but that is the limit of Ram's liability.

Actually less... someone showed a spec earlier where a truck camper max was a lot less than payload... like 1,000 lbs less. And the CG needs to be in front of the rear axle.

 

[tacollie]

Being over GVWR isn't illegal, but that is the limit of Ram's liability.

Actually less... someone showed a spec earlier where a truck camper max was a lot less than payload... like 1,000 lbs less. And the CG needs to be in front of the rear axle.

I'm his defense it is illegal in Canada?

 

[burleyman]

Have no other rednecks not thought of personal testing? Hold my beer.

Install camper, load it up with usual stuff, possibly a little extra in the rear for good measure. Back down an upslope, shift to forward (extra points for manual transmission), attempt a wheelie. Repeat until satisfied. Properly spaced low or high spots a plus. Speed bumps?

Find the center of gravity with jacks and something between the rails. Shift things around until all four wheels are off the ground.

Or do none of the above, and beef up the rails first thing. That's done often in my rural area for pickups converted to cattle feeders. I've seen the opposite bend from too much center weight.

 

[ramblinChet]

Wow, what an interesting thread. In many others I have been criticized for my recommendations related to building a truck and camper system:

1. Identify all components in your system and calculate reasonable weight - this is your total payload
2. Select truck platform with payload capacity of approximately two times your estimated payload
3. Consider center-of-gravity and position all heavy objects as low and close to the center of the vehicle as possible

If your system does not meet the goal, change it. Purchase a truck with a higher payload, a camper that weighs less, or reduce the amount of accessories being carried. If you ignore the obvious and decide to max out your payload you are simply making excuses. Add-a-leafs, airbags, mismatched springs and shocks are hack-jobs but only a part of the problem. Braking and cooling systems, handling, etc. were all calculated, scrutinized, tested, and ultimately accepted by countless professionals.

Regarding this specific topic, our community must pull their collective head out of the sand and begin to act like professional men who possess good principals and values. We are good people who make good decisions but on this one topic - it's like some sort of sickness has infected most.

If your family visited the annual fair and your sixty pound child wanted to ride a ride that soared and swung through the air...would you permit them to ride it even though the sign clearly stated the maximum weight limit was fifty pounds? Would you be able to stand up to the slick talking gypsy ride operator who says everything will be fine who really only cares about your money?

 

[Todd780]

If your family visited the annual fair and your sixty pound child wanted to ride a ride that soared and swung through the air...would you permit them to ride it even though the sign clearly stated the maximum weight limit was fifty pounds?

Uhhh.... no?