Full Size - Small Diesels: why so unpopular?

[Highlander]

Ford, GM and RAM have been putting small (3.0 v6) diesel in their 150(0) series trucks for quite some time. Maybe like 7 or 8 years.
All of them seem to have very good mpg and even if the fuel is expensive they are still better for mileage.
I was recently watching couple of owner’s videos on YouTube and they get like 28mpg or some cases 30mpg.
This is basically a normal 4 door sedan mpg.
Even when they are loaded they still keep in like 23-25mpg range. My wife’s van hardly ever gets that mpg.

BUT

You almost never see them in overland community. I don’t remember ever seeing somebody building a diesel Ford F-150 or Ram 1500 diesel or GM 1500.
Yet, they have a huge torque, great mpg but they totally ignored? And I am curious to know why.
I know they tend to be expensive, but some people have no problem with paying a good money for high-end gas trucks.
Are they that unreliable and expensive to maintain?
Is it hard to justify a good mpg over the cost ? ( but the cost is hardly a thing when it comes with the HD trucks )
I am really puzzled by this. I refuse to believe that the big three can’t design a small, reliable diesel engine. I feel that something else going on here. (No conspiracy. I just believe in the American car industry and it’s capabilities)

Before this I never really paid attention to the modern diesels. I thought they only give a tiny advantage for fuel economy but some videos really surprised me. A 29mpg for that size of truck for long distance driving is great. My body’s Tocoma never gets more than 20mpg. Some dude drove a ram or gm from Seattle to Fairbanks and the mpg was kinda in very high twenties. In Winter or early spring.

There are a few people here who have extensive knowledge of diesels. Would love to hear what they say.

I genuinely want to understand the topic of small diesels well.

 

[GeorgeHayduke]

I think the primary issue is payload. Diesels and the associated emissions are much heavier than gas engines. A normally equipped gas half ton might have 1500 pounds of payload which doesn't give much buffer for a heavier diesel powertrain plus typical camping gear and people. A gasser 3/4 ton might start with 3000 pound payload an end up around 2200 pounds with a diesel, still giving you enough capacity to work with. If you want diesel engine characteristics it just makes more sense in an HD platform that can tow and haul heavier loads.

 

[tacollie]

I don't like Rams but this is one of my favorite trucks in this forum. I think he was averaging 18mpgs on 35s but I could be wrong. I'm guessing a gas truck would be closer to 12-14.

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The higher payload packages are usually with the gas motors. Long term ownership cost are typically less with gas motors.

 

[tyler.armijo]

Another part of it maybe because ram has been doing it for 7-8 years but gm has only been doing it for 2 years and ford only did it for 2-3 years before it got cancelled. So in reality the only one that has been around is the ecodiesel and they had their issues with the second gen that stopped production for a while. I think now that gm has come out with theirs and the reliability is becoming more proven it will be something you see more of. With the ram you have to take into account we are a relatively small community in the grand scheme of things so when you take into account the small number of people on the site and the small amount of people that buy the diesels it becomes a very small group.


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[plainjaneFJC]

Ford is going to quit making them, the Ram has been a widely known royal POS, the GM has had its documented problems as well- I follow a guy on YouTube that ended getting his lemon lawed.
All that is a shame because they all 3 seems to be efficient and pull small trailers real well.

 

[vintageracer]

Some folks have the expectation that just because that lighter 1/2 truck has a diesel engine it should pull and haul everything a 1 ton with a diesel engine can do.

Overload that light duty truck with that smaller diesel engine and you are bound to have problems!

 

[montypower]

It's easy to focus on fuel economy numbers. But that isn't the actual cost!

You need to run all the numbers! Purchase cost, depreciation, finance cost, maintenance, repair, license, registration, insurance...

Owning a paid for vehicle with lower MPG is much less expensive overall. Gas just isn't that expensive. We found that an electric vehicle may start making sense (for us) around $10/gallon. That's based on the purchase price only. Then you'd need to factor long term battery replacement or diminished value from selling with a used battery. This "fake" car market won't continue forever.

Modern diesels are insanely complicated and problematic. While buying new under warranty will help mitigate risk there is a steep cost premium. Bottom line... Diesels are necessary if towing heavy 20k or more. That's why HD diesels sell. Small diesels offer slight mpg bump with limited benefit over gas with added cost and complications.

 

[deserteagle56]

Modern diesels are insanely complicated and problematic. Small diesels offer slight mpg bump with limited benefit over gas with added cost and complications.

^ This!
Diesels used to be simple and extremely reliable. Then the EPA got involved. Go onto any of the diesel engine forums (Ford, Ram, GM) and read all about the problems with EGR valves, diesel exhaust fluid, diesel particulate filters, etc.

I own a 60 year old John Deere diesel. 60 years of no engine problems. I also have a newer Kubota diesel with all the modern pollution controls on it. The manual specifically warns about not letting the Kubota run at idle too long - it will plug up the DPF with soot. Same applies to the automotive diesels like in the Ram and Jeep - I see talk in the Jeep forums all the time advising people that if they make a lot of short trips where the engine will not get up to operating temperature and stay there a while to burn off the soot collected by the DPF, then they WILL have problems.

 

[givemethewillys]

When I was looking at getting a new truck, I really liked the thought of the f150 powerstroke. I previously had a 2005 f250 with the infamous 6.0 that almost bankrupted me in the 2 years I owned it, but I loved the torque from the diesel, and loved that truck when it was running well.

When I ran the numbers, though, the break even point wouldn't ever happen when you factored in fuel costs (almost .70c more expensive near me), maintenance, etc. Not to mention that emissions equipment tends to fail before 200k, and is extremely expensive to replace.

I wouldn't even consider "deleting" emissions equipment in this day and age, so it was something major to consider. In the end, the 3.5 ecoboost has better performance, and much less cost of ownership, so that's what I went with. I've been happy with it.

 

[phsycle]

Today’s gas engines are extremely reliable. It appears, more so than the diesel counterparts.

Diesel doesn’t offer much of anything to me. I think hybrid is the next step forward for me.

 

[billiebob]

I almost bought the F150 flavour. Then a buddy with one asked if I was going to be towing with it, Yes, I put about 15K miles on my Jeep towing a 2000# trailer and wanted the F150 Diesel for the gas savings. My TJR gets 14mpg towing for work towing the cargo trailer. I get 17mpg with the lighter Square Drop trailer which I drive a bit slower since I have no deadlines overlanding. He said he gets 15mpg towing his sleds and quads on a hybrid tent trailer thing behind his F150 Diesel and he doubted loaded and towing I'd save any money. So I saved $50K and bought another used low mile TJR.

The new diesel pickups only get great mileage empty and under 65mph. Add a camper, trailer, or Interstate speeds and the gas mileage advantage evaporates. If I wanted something bigger than my TJR I'd buy an F150 5.0L with all the GVWR and towing options.

A few guys I know have the F150 with the 5.0L and they love it.

 

[Highlander]

I don’t think the vast majority of people who buy the 150 class pay to much attention to the payload. The vast majority of the high-end off-road trucks such as Raptor, Zr2 and Rebel have very bad payload numbers. The Tundra TRD off-road is like 4 adults plus tow suitcases.
What I am saying is when people refuse to buy a diesel truck that’s not because of the little payload but rather an alleged unreliability of the engine.
Yes, the modern small diesels are very complicated but the 250(0) class is absolutely dominated by the diesels.
Are the HD diesels so different from mid size ones in terms of the design that the HD ones can run like 300k and the 3.0 can hardly pass 150k?

 

[Umbrarian]

I had Bluetec in my ML350 for years (sold it earlier this year). Got about 25mpg, and it ran great. But I feel a similar engine in a P/U or SUV would be underpowered.

 

[tacollie]

The diesel engine options are only available on the higher trimmed trucks and the diesel motor is the most expensive engine option. GM and Ford both have lower tow ratings for their diesels. Ram had lower tow ratings until recently.

The HD trucks sell in huge numbers because of the power. Even in those applications the cost of ownership is generally higher than a gas motor truck despite the mpg different. While the motors will last the emission systems require more maintaince. If you delete the emissions stuff you remove the weak link but that's a whole other conversation.

Financially the little diesels don't make sense imo.

 

[kwill]

Financially the little diesels don't make sense imo.

I agree with this. They cost more initially, the fuel, at least in my part of the country, costs more + DEF and you have the weight penalty, and the complications...why would you want one?