Full Size - Small Diesels: why so unpopular?
- Thread starter Highlander
- Start date
billiebob
Well-known member
well said ^^^
Diesels in North America have a mythical cult following. The manufacturers are attempting to capitalize on that but the performance is not there.
toylandcruiser
Expedition Leader
Thousands of posts on here from people saying if only “insert truck” would come with a diesel. I’d buy it. Time and time again no one ever does
Todd780
OverCamper
It's all relative. I've had my 5.0L for 5 years. But, I'll probably go twin turbo 3.5 for my next truck.
I like the idea of max torque at lower rpm for towing.
My 5.0L with 6 spd and 3:73's likes to rev. Slight incline and all of the sudden I'm at 4,000 rpm for a few minutes before it downshifts.
billiebob
Well-known member
yep, its getting kind of tired now that small diesels are available. But most of the "insert" comments were made more than 10 years ago when diesels were economical and reliable. I had an old Mercedes with a diesel and a clutch, I should have kept it.
For the past 10 years manufacturers have been struggling to make the diesel cleaner and losing everything we loved about diesels in the process.
toylandcruiser
Expedition Leader
Well it’s more the gov mandating than manufacturers tinkering
- Gasoline
iswas significantly cheaper than diesel in North America - but those price delta's go through various cycles, so not a permanent advantage. - Most North American mid-sized and 1/2 ton trucks serve as all-around daily drivers rather than as dedicated work trucks. North American HD's and overseas trucks (ute's to some) are generally sold to a more utilitarian crowd - diesels enjoy much higher popularity with those segments.
- North American fuel stations are plentiful enough that driving range (efficiency) isn't of prime importance to many truck owners. In other parts of the world, diesel is the go-to option for anything truck-related simply due to driving range.
- Gasoline engines have made many advancements in power delivery and efficiency (turbo's and hybrids). I think a diesel hybrid would be even better, but I'm not sure if any of the North American OEM's are willing to try that for the truck segment.
billiebob
Well-known member
There is no debating the deadly pollutants diesel spew. Governments are merely reacting to the fact diesel fumes are deadly. If manufacturers had a brain beyond their wallets there would be no need for government regulations. I was amazed in India in 2014, ALL the diesels in the region I was touring had converted to CNG, Compressed Natural Gas. There was NO diesel. If a third world country, with 4 times our population can get rid of diesel overnite what is our problem.
In the 1/2-ton market, turbocharged gas engines are making the low-end torque that made turbodiesels so desirable. Sure, the diesels still get better fuel economy in virtually every situation, but in 1/2-tons they lack the horsepower and unladen performance that buyers seem to want most. Also, thanks to the complex emissions equipment, modern diesels are not the trouble-free long-life engines that they built their reputation on 20 years ago. Most problems now seem to be fuel pump & injector related or with the emissions components, and it seems that the expensive problems tend to begin popping up pretty regularly by about 150,000 miles. It used to be that you let them warm up before use, cool down before shutdown, change the oil/filter and fuel filters when needed, and the rest of the vehicle would rot around the engine that never quit. Now if you buy a diesel new, you want to dump it before the warranty expires or the problems start. Plus, these new diesels don't exactly thrive in the type of short-trip light load duty that most 1/2-ton based vehicles experience. HD truck buyers that get a diesel to work, under heavy loads frequently, have better luck, long-term, with modern diesels than those who buy them for recreational use.
warwickscout
Observer
I have a GMC Sierra 1500 3.0 Duramax, 18000 miles so far and i love it. Had a PW that was averaging 12 mpg around town and 7 towing, I really didn't need a 2500.My GMC id averaging 23 mpg and 15 towing the same enclosed trailer. Both trucks are running about a 35 in tire. My best milage was 26mpg on a trip from NY to Florida. DEF is not really an issue unless you are towing then it sucks it down. Definitely not for everyone but so far, I am liking it. Around her diesel is a little more than gas but in neighboring states its cheaper.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I would love my next rig to be a diesel for two reasons:
1) Range
2) The "magic" or "Mystique" that others have mentioned that tends to come with the idea of a diesel. Off road trucks, to some degree, feel like they just should have the rattle of a diesel coming from under the hood, in the same way a Triumph Triple just should whistle as you wind it up.
The second is a perfectly fine reason to buy a car -- people buy totally impractical high performance sports cars all the time based purely on 2) -- but when it gets right down to it, is that "magic" worth nearly $10 grand added to the purchase price? I think not.
The first is a compelling advantage to diesel, but the differences are minimal. In most of the segment, a gas motor and a couple of jerry cans (80 lbs of added weight, far less than the typical payload hit taken by upgrading to a diesel) will go just as far as any diesel on the same platform. And, while in a diesel you always have to think of DEF, in a gasser, the extra range of that couple of Jerry's is mostly irrelevant in most of North America - gas stations, as another poster said, are ubiquitous everywhere, and even the most remote roads on the continent require a range of 300 kms max. So, for the once-in-a-while need for the extra range, a couple of jerry cans is more practical than a diesel which has DEF needs every day.
I have goals to travel internationally so for that, a diesel is not useful because of the high sulphur fuel issues, but if I was swimming in cash, there would be a diesel Gladiator, JL, or AT4 Canyon/ZR2 Bison in my driveway by the end of the day to use as a runabout based on number 2) alone. But I'm not, so there won't be.
1) Range
2) The "magic" or "Mystique" that others have mentioned that tends to come with the idea of a diesel. Off road trucks, to some degree, feel like they just should have the rattle of a diesel coming from under the hood, in the same way a Triumph Triple just should whistle as you wind it up.
The second is a perfectly fine reason to buy a car -- people buy totally impractical high performance sports cars all the time based purely on 2) -- but when it gets right down to it, is that "magic" worth nearly $10 grand added to the purchase price? I think not.
The first is a compelling advantage to diesel, but the differences are minimal. In most of the segment, a gas motor and a couple of jerry cans (80 lbs of added weight, far less than the typical payload hit taken by upgrading to a diesel) will go just as far as any diesel on the same platform. And, while in a diesel you always have to think of DEF, in a gasser, the extra range of that couple of Jerry's is mostly irrelevant in most of North America - gas stations, as another poster said, are ubiquitous everywhere, and even the most remote roads on the continent require a range of 300 kms max. So, for the once-in-a-while need for the extra range, a couple of jerry cans is more practical than a diesel which has DEF needs every day.
I have goals to travel internationally so for that, a diesel is not useful because of the high sulphur fuel issues, but if I was swimming in cash, there would be a diesel Gladiator, JL, or AT4 Canyon/ZR2 Bison in my driveway by the end of the day to use as a runabout based on number 2) alone. But I'm not, so there won't be.
One other reason why the small diesels in 1/2-tons are so unpopular - cost. They're not $10,000 options like on 3/4-ton + trucks, but they are priced as premium engine options comparable to the 3.5TT ecoboost, GM 6.2, and well above Ram's 5.7 Hemi. If you look at the vast majority of trucks on the lot (back when there were vast amounts of trucks on lots...) they're optioned with a volume engine that costs ~$1,000 like the 2.7TT ecoboost, GM 5.3, or Ram 5.7 Hemi. For most folks who aren't buying or leasing a truly loaded truck (High Country, Denali, Platinum, Laramie Longhorn) the extra $2,000-$3,000 is better spent on luxury options that they touch like leather, heated seats and steering wheel, premium sound, and advanced safety systems and/or lighting. Relatively few buyers are picky about the drivetrain options, as long as it's quiet and feels powerful, they're interested in appearances inside and out - how it will impress their friends and colleagues. It's the same reason you see so many "luxury" cars and crossovers with the smaller standard engine, and often without AWD when available.
In the overland world, believe it or not, many of us are cost-conscious and purchase vehicles that we can get a deal on that have the hardware we need. It's hard to get a deal on a vehicle that's relatively rare on dealer lots, and if it's uncommon when new, it will be uncommon used also.
In the overland world, believe it or not, many of us are cost-conscious and purchase vehicles that we can get a deal on that have the hardware we need. It's hard to get a deal on a vehicle that's relatively rare on dealer lots, and if it's uncommon when new, it will be uncommon used also.
warwickscout
Observer
i paid no premium for my diesel it was the same price as the 6.2
The 3.0 Duramax is the exception to the premium pricing rule for light diesels. The 3.0 Duramax saw a $1,500 price drop for 2021, which split the option price difference between the 5.3 & 6.2. As of 2021 the 3.0 Duramax is $1,045 more than a 5.3/8 speed and $1,450 less than the 6.2/10 speed. At launch, the 3.0 Duramax was priced equivalent to the 6.2, which is GM's top 1/2-ton truck engine.
Ram's EcoDiesel is $2,700 more than a 5.7 Hemi. Ford's 3.0 Powerstroke is no longer available, but when it was, it was $2,400 more than the 3.5 ecoBoost. Even the hybrid PowerBoost was $500 less than the 3.0 Powerstroke, and the PowerBoost makes more horsepower and torque, while offering similar fuel economy ratings.