Full Size - Small Diesels: why so unpopular?

[Jrgunn5150]

I have a genuine question,

Is it possible that your engine is exception, a strange anomaly?


And maybe, the deletion of EGR & DPF has allowed your truck to achieve 277K without too much headache?

The mpg you get is really great... this is why small diesels are so attractive.

To be clear, up front, my old 8.1 big block accrued 277,000 miles without incident. New baby diesel is at 164,000 without incident.

I'm no expert, as far as if my truck is an anomaly, I only have my own experience to go on on the subject, I believe taking the EGR and DPF off are helpful, but I didn't remove them for the first 130,000 miles. When I purchased the truck, I had access to Stellantis warranty claim system, the engine related claims were for failure of the EGR or DPF systems, or outright engine failure.

In cruising the forums and FB groups, I've not seen a common denominator on the engine failures.

Outright engine failure is about 3% of production within 5 years. So, high by modern standards, but you wouldn't bet money on a 3% chance.

I don't do special maintenance, I don't do any fancy oil, 10k changes with Rotella, nothing out of the ordinary, annual fuel filters, nothing crazy. Like I said, it's also primarily run on Biodiesel, which people also think is the devil.

Go online to just about any group and you'll find people bashing something, but I can find 5 Ecodiesels with 250k+ on them for sale on Autotrader at any given time. Or Ecoboosts, which all have timing failures according to the internet, or 5.3's, which all have DOD failure, according to the internet, or all Hemi's, which all have lifter failure... On and on.

I think it may be just easier to find someone bitching.

 

[Regcabguy]

and yet they have addressed diesel particle pollution, diesel engines create up to 100 times more particles than gasoline-powered engines,
yes we have toilets, why can'r we resolve the diesel particulate pollution issue

View attachment 700492

The inside of exhausts of dpf/def equipped diesel trucks are cleaner than gassers. Check them out. That photo shows an under-endowed owner who loves unburnt fuel spewing into the atmosphere where his kids breathe. I have an '07 Ram Cummins only because I carry a camper. If you don't tow heavy or carry a camper don't get one. This will be my last and will still be going strong long after I croak.

 

[tyler.armijo]

Go online to just about any group and you'll find people bashing something, but I can find 5 Ecodiesels with 250k+ on them for sale on Autotrader at any given time. Or Ecoboosts, which all have timing failures according to the internet, or 5.3's, which all have DOD failure, according to the internet, or all Hemi's, which all have lifter failure... On and on.

I think it may be just easier to find someone bitching.

Truer words have never been spoken. manufacturers spend millions of dollars doing r&d on these power plants and with todays day and age as far as connectivity they can not afford to put out a bad product or it will have major repercussions. One of the biggest issues people have with the small diesels is improper use, Diesel engines are not designed to do short grocery trips or 5-10 minute drives to work. Drive them on the open highway or with a load of some kind and they will work great and last a long time with the same reliability as a gas counterpart with much better economy.


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[skrypj]

Payload was a big component. I test drove a Ram Bighorn Ecodiesel that had 1200 lbs of payload. It was a pretty low option truck. Higher end trims can be under 1000 lbs and I have seen a payload sticker for a Limited EcoD that was ~850.

The other issue is range. While the diesels get better MPG's, they usually have smaller tanks. A 3.0 diesel with a 24 gallon tank is not going to get better range than a gasser with a 33+ gallon tank. Ram did put a 33 gallon tank in the 2019+ EcoD however, but Ford and GM have stuck to mid-20's tanks. I can get 700+ miles out of my 2014 steel body F150 3.5 Ecoboost that weighs 6200 lbs empty and has 3.73's. A modern 2.7L Ecoboost with a 36 gallon tank should be able to hit 800+ miles in the right conditions which are numbers that the small tank diesels can only match at best. So, if you are going out on the trails, you're not any better off with a 1/2 ton diesel in this regard.

Also pricing. You are talking a ~$5000 option for the Powerstroke and EcoD. You have to do a lot of driving to offset that, if it ever does at all. Here, diesel is about the same as gas, so it might work out, but I was just talking to a guy in the Northwest who was saying diesel was almost a dollar more per gallon. You will never recoup the costs with a price delta like that. GM is the only one making a serious push for their diesel. A 3.0 Duramax slots in just slightly above the 5.3L in price, and below 6.2L. If you were having to choose between a 5.3L and a 3.0L, the decision is a lot easier than say a 2.7L Ecoboost for $1000 and a 3.0 PSD for $5000

Basically, GM is the only half ton diesel I would look at. It gets stellar MPG's, it has solid power(278hp vs 250 for the PSD and 260 for the Ram), it is aluminum block and only a hair heavier than the V8's so payload doesn't get completely killed, and it is priced well. The only downside is the smaller tank.

1/2 ton diesels just kinda seem to be trucks without a mission in a lot of cases. You have to be a very specific use case for them to pencil out. Or you just have to really want a diesel for reasons.

 

[Highlander]

Basically, GM is the only half ton diesel I would look at. It gets stellar MPG's, it has solid power(278hp vs 250 for the PSD and 260 for the Ram), it is aluminum block and only a hair heavier than the V8's so payload doesn't get completely killed, and it is priced well. The only downside is the smaller tank.

Yes, the GM does give some great numbers for power and mpg but their fuel pump is located in the back of the engine and you will have to drop the gearbox to change it.
Though the GM engineer did say in the interview that it is very sold build and runs on chain.

My personal conclusion is that here in the US the 1/2 will be dominated by small turbo engines which will get more efficient, reliable and small. In the similar way the oversees truck market is dominated by small turbo diesels. They got progressively small, powerful and reliable (though there are some complains about that).

 

[Jupiter58]

The issue with fords small diesel is people opted for the 2.7 or 3.5 eb’s instead for reasons people commented on above. The demand just wasn’t there for them.


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[lumpskie]

Not surprisingly, the most vocal opinions come from people who don't own them lol.

...

My observation exactly. I've put over 70,000 miles on my older diesel Cruiser and the cost of maintenance has been basically changing oil, and filters. I have a new Ram 2500 Diesel and my cost of ownership is about the same as my wife's Lexus. My Ram can Cruise 75 mph and get 20 ish mpg on 3 inches of lift and 37s. I know there is a reputation that DPFs are unreliable that that is massively inflated compared to reality. Go and look up PD power diesel videos on youtube and you'll see that guys fleet has many many trucks ranging from 500,000 miles up to 750,000 miles. Those trucks are still hot-shot trucks running everyday, with stock emissions. There aren't many gas engines out there that will drive that many miles... much less towing the entire time.

Here's a couple high mileage Rams where they list all the things that were replaced.

PD Power Diesel with 715,000 miles

Hoovies Garage 998,000 miles

 

[skrypj]

My observation exactly. I've put over 70,000 miles on my older diesel Cruiser and the cost of maintenance has been basically changing oil, and filters. I have a new Ram 2500 Diesel and my cost of ownership is about the same as my wife's Lexus. My Ram can Cruise 75 mph and get 20 ish mpg on 3 inches of lift and 37s. I know there is a reputation that DPFs are unreliable that that is massively inflated compared to reality. Go and look up PD power diesel videos on youtube and you'll see that guys fleet has many many trucks ranging from 500,000 miles up to 750,000 miles. Those trucks are still hot-shot trucks running everyday, with stock emissions. There aren't many gas engines out there that will drive that many miles... much less towing the entire time.

Here's a couple high mileage Rams where they list all the things that were replaced.

PD Power Diesel with 715,000 miles

Hoovies Garage 998,000 miles

The reason those trucks do run 500,000-750,000 miles is probably BECAUSE they are hot-shot trucks, not in spite of it. They are getting worked, their DPF's are nice and toasty, they can regen without interruption, and their oil stays hot and can burn off contaminants.

I bet its the guys who use their 6.7L diesel with 1000 ft-lbs of torque to get groceries and drive to work that end up having issues prematurely. They never get the DPF's hot enough to properly regen and then they clog up and crap out.

There is a running theory on the F150 Ecoboost forums about this exact thing. The observation has been that the trucks which are run the hardest are also the ones that last the longest without issues. There was a guy with a 2011 3.5L Ecoboost that hit 400k miles and the only issue he had was a bad throttle body. The dude towed a trailer every single day for work.

I am gunna go out on a limb and suggest that 99% of diesel half tons get used for groceries and work commutes. I see a lot of Ecodiesels around here, a couple of F150 PSD's, but none of them are ever hooked up to a trailer.

 

[Highlander]

Ram 2500 Diesel

I don't think anybody question the magnificence of the 6.7 Cummins here.
The discussion is about the small halftons diesels which of course lack the longevity of the larger diesels or se we are told.

As far as the small diesels go it is clear, in these thread at least that some people have had a great use of it and some have hated it.

 

[skrypj]

I don't think anybody question the magnificence of the 6.7 Cummins here.
The discussion is about the small halftons diesels which of course lack the longevity of the larger diesels or se we are told.

As far as the small diesels go it is clear, in these thread at least that some people have had a great use of it and some have hated it.

My buddy is one of the guys who hates his Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel. His is bone stock and has had the EGR cooler fail twice causing the engine to overheat.

And this guy is a diesel nut. He literally runs his own business building turbo upgrades for Colorado Duramax's and has built compound turbo setups for Cat C13's making 1200+ hp. He also built a custom variable geometry Borg Warner EFR turbo for his LBZ duramax. The guy knows his stuff. He hates his JGC.

He was acutally looking at replacing it with a supercharged Ranger Rover if that tells you anything about how desperate he is

 

[Todd780]

My buddy is one of the guys who hates his Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel. His is bone stock and has had the EGR cooler fail twice causing the engine to overheat.

And this guy is a diesel nut. He literally runs his own business building turbo upgrades for Colorado Duramax's and has built compound turbo setups for Cat C13's making 1200+ hp. He also built a custom variable geometry Borg Warner EFR turbo for his LBZ duramax. The guy knows his stuff. He hates his JGC.

It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand...

 

[Littlehouse]

It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand...

Love that saying. $50K Jeep, roof leaks upon purchase, it's a Jeep thing...

 

[jbaucom]

Love that saying. $50K Jeep, roof leaks upon purchase, it's a Jeep thing...

That's why it has drain plugs ?

 

[billiebob]

I almost bought an F150 for the exponential doubling of my TJRs gas mileage. I tow a 2000# trailer 10,000 miles a year. A guy with the fabulous F150 told me, towing he gets the same fuel economy I do, I'd get gain nothing in gas mileage. So I parked my '05 TJR with 400,000 kms on it and found an '06 TJR with 100,000 kms. And saved at least $40,000.

I love my Jeep. I'd love to double my gas mileage more but just like in the 1970s after the first gas crisis..... the EPA rated gas mileage is not often reality.

 

[givemethewillys]

Nobody mentioned the fact that in the ford 3.0, the engineers decided to put a timing belt in it, vs. something more robust. I read of a lot of folks being scared off by that one when I was researching.