Fun with heat....

[robert j. yates]

I have had an on-going heat issue with my rig. The Jeep water temps run in the 220-225 range on hot days with spikes up to 233 having been seen. Even with 2 coolers, the tranny will also get hot towing my AT Horizon trailer so I have no choice but to deal with it. This time I am not screwing around :coffeedrink:

The first mod (first picture) will be the addition of a fan driven Setrab 19row engine oil cooler. This will take the place of the oil cooler I am currently using which is inside my Novak radiator. Using an infrared temp gun, it was clear that my water temps were actually heating up my oil so that has to go.

I'm looking to run hardline along the top of the passenger side framerail to the rear corner and mount the cooler up inside the rear corner above the bumper. I also have 1/8" steel corner guards so in addition to being dead space and perfect for a small fan driven cooler, the area is reinforced. I'll be using braided Aeroquip hose and a/n 6 to flare fittings at the hardlines front and rear and a/n 6 to m22 fittings at the Setrab cooler. I am not worried about the length of the run as the Jeep 6 cylinder was used in many different farm implement applications where remote oil coolers were mounted on runs 4-6' in length using the stock oil pump. I will be installing a check valve to prevent drainback as a precaution. If we can pull this off, it will be pretty trick. Pix to come on that.

For the transmission, I am currently running a Currie billet style tube cooler mounted to the drivers side frame along with a fan driven B&M cooler mounted under the tub opposite form where the stock muffler sits. That set-up has proven to work just fine in normal conditions but with the addition of my AT trailer, the tranny will get hot when pulling long grades. To remedy that, I ordered another Setrab cooler...this time a 40 row fan driven cooler with its own shroud (2nd and 3rd pictures). This one is going to be interesting ...mock up with cardboard told me it would fit but once it showed up at the house last night, I started to have second thoughts. If I can get it to fit, the frame rail cooler will go. If it won't fit.....Setrab offers a smaller 30 row that might fit and I have also thought to plumb 2 of the small Setrabs inline. My only concern with that will be the potential for pressure drop. Pix to come for this install as well.

All fans will have a manual shut-off for water crossings and they will be equiped with 165* on/180* off temperature switches.

The first order of business though will be pulling the entire exhaust (I have it built so it disassembles into 3 sections) and taking it to get ceramic coated. I'll be haeded to this shop on Friday to drop it off. $22/linear foot will get me a nice coating of silvermetalic thermal ceramic heat barrier.

www.embeeperformance.com

......BTW......the Jeep is still for sale. $25,000 firm and it will include this current round of mods which is why the price is now firm.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12607

 

[kjp1969]

Dang, this seems like a pretty complicated answer to a fairly simple question. Why not just a bigger radiator and a combo trans/oil cooler in front of it? Simple, effective, cheap(er), no electrical work, what's not to like?

Kevin

 

[robert j. yates]

The physical size of the radiator is limited by the Jeep but I do have a 2 row all aluminum Novak radiator in place with the stock shroud. My hood is vented, I run a Hesco hi flow t-stat housing and water pump, 7 blade fan conversion and heavy duty fan clutch. The Jeep runs warm and this has been thoroughly tested and verified with mechanical guages and the temp gun.

The tranny is on its own 2 cooler circuit and is not even tied into the radiator although the engine oil cooler I am currently using is. The tranny was never an issue until I started pulling the Horizon.

I've been chasing this problem for years..basically since the Jeep was new. Its never overheated, come close to overheating or swept the guages which is something TJ's will do if the computer thinks things are to hot. All of that being said, I am after durability and margin of safety....I spend alot of time wheeling in the desert and I don't need things getting hot. All of that being said, allelectrical componants are tied into relays...its not a huge deal.

 

[kjp1969]

Its never overheated, come close to overheating or swept the guages which is something TJ's will do if the computer thinks things are to hot.

Then it sounds like you're looking for piece of mind rather than the cure to a problem, so have at it. Sounds like a trick piece of engineering, though fairly complicated what with the plumbing, the relays, and temp senders and the override switches. A couple of gauges too, I suppose.

If it were me, I'd probably just stick a slim oil and trans cooler in front of the radiator and call it good unless or until a real problem arose.

Kevin

 

[Steve Curren]

I too have had problems with getting warm, if you remember we talked a while ago about this. I have installed the fan operated tranny cooler and the fluid still runs through a new radiator. My vehicle temp stays at just under the 210 mark, my tranny temp will run cool, 160 (+ -) for most of the time but once in a while it gets just under the 220 mark or at it. I have been over 220 only twice and it dropped back under 220 shortly. I talked with the tech at the local Jeep dealer and was told since I have an automatic to run it with it out of overdrive while pulling the trailer or around town. When on a straight stretch of freeway or downhill it's OK to activate the overdrive.
I too am always watching the tranny temp and it has become a real pain to worry about that when I am probably worrying for nothing.
Good luck with the problem..

 

[robert j. yates]

Then it sounds like you're looking for piece of mind rather than the cure to a problem, so have at it. Sounds like a trick piece of engineering, though fairly complicated what with the plumbing, the relays, and temp senders and the override switches. A couple of gauges too, I suppose.

If it were me, I'd probably just stick a slim oil and trans cooler in front of the radiator and call it good unless or until a real problem arose.

Kevin

If you consider having to watch your tranny and engine temps like a hawk because your guages are always on the high side of normal, piece of mind, then you don't understand what I am dealing with.

You know the Grapevine right? I hit 231* on that (with the ac turned off) with 220* tranny temps 2 weeks ago and it was only 90* outside. If I could simply bolt on a cheesy little Hayden stacked plate cooler in front of my radiator, then it would have been done and called good. In fact, I have been there done that and it wasn't good.

Seriously, I have been dealing with this for a long time and towing the AT hasn't made it any easier. I am not saying this is for everybody...its for my rig and my situation. So why don't you humor me and just let me post the tech without monday morning quarterbacking my reasons. If you don't like them, feel free to skip by the thread.

 

[XXXpedition]

i had overheating problems with my xj for 5 years.
custom aluminum radiators (http://www.alumrad.com)) really cure this. and it was only $200. i could have saved a lot of work and money if i had known that earlier. (a fellow adventurer turned me on to this)
and it proved absolutely in the outback of australia. actually the engine almost ran too cool.
sven

 

[kjp1969]

So why don't you humor me and just let me post the tech without monday morning quarterbacking my reasons. If you don't like them, feel free to skip by the thread.

Aw jeeze, I didn't mean anything insulting- I admire the engineering you're putting into this creative solution. I assumed that you were looking for comments, so I gave comments. You must admit that its complex, but sometimes complex can be good and its certainly more fun to build than some off-the-shelf solution. Good luck, and I hope it works out. I'm a big fan of well engineered solutions to problems, and I'd love to check it all out sometime when you're done.

Side note: we pull a 5500lb travel trailer with a Sequoia all over Southern Cal, including over the grapevine, so I know the high-temp issues that are gnawing at you. The worst was a stop and go session up the road to Joshua tree- I was over 220 for an hour or so. There wasn't much to do except carry on, what with a carload of kids, a single lane, and no detour. There are those that say once your trans heats up that much, even if you cool the fluid down, the damage is already done. Of course, that leaves you to buy a bigger truck or go home, neither is much of an option, so I just watch the temps and change the fluid every 15,000.

Carry on brother, hope the install goes well.

Kevin

 

[oldcj5guy]

I am definitely interested in getting the specs and info on the coolers. I am all for peace of mind when it comes to the heat of my engine components.

 

[robert j. yates]

Aw jeeze, I didn't mean anything insulting- I admire the engineering you're putting into this creative solution. I assumed that you were looking for comments, so I gave comments. You must admit that its complex, but sometimes complex can be good and its certainly more fun to build than some off-the-shelf solution. Good luck, and I hope it works out. I'm a big fan of well engineered solutions to problems, and I'd love to check it all out sometime when you're done.

Side note: we pull a 5500lb travel trailer with a Sequoia all over Southern Cal, including over the grapevine, so I know the high-temp issues that are gnawing at you. The worst was a stop and go session up the road to Joshua tree- I was over 220 for an hour or so. There wasn't much to do except carry on, what with a carload of kids, a single lane, and no detour. There are those that say once your trans heats up that much, even if you cool the fluid down, the damage is already done. Of course, that leaves you to buy a bigger truck or go home, neither is much of an option, so I just watch the temps and change the fluid every 15,000.

Carry on brother, hope the install goes well.

Kevin

Thanx for the positive comments and sorry if I was a little irritated. Yes its complex but its really no more complex than what is already on the Jeep which consists of 3 separate coolers and 1 of them fan driven. While I will be adding electrical complexity via another switch and relay, I will actually be reducing 1 cooler out of the mix with these new Setrab coolers.

I change my tranny fluid every 10K, the filter every other fluid change and when I boiled it last summer, the first thing I did when I got home was change the fluid. The tranny is about the only non-stock original piece of my drivetrain left and it has 103,000 miles on it. Frankly, it runs and shifts fine and I would like to think that my maintenance schedule and concern over heat is the reason why.

I am attaching the link to the Setrab site for those interested. These coolers are unlike most others and the build quality is phenominal. I should have just bit the bullet the first time and gone with these.

http://www.setrabusa.com/Fanpacks.html

BTW.... the part numbers for the 2 coolers I am using are FP119M22I for the engine oil cooler and 76-08701-01 for the tranny cooler.

 

[robert j. yates]

One reason why.....

.............I hate taking crap apart.... is because I always find other crap that needs to be dealt with.

Pulling the exhaust to take it to the coating folks, revealed that I have a melted gas tank.

I can't believe I hadn't noticed this sooner but in my defense, I did recently get back from the trip and basically park the Jeep in the garage so it really hasn't been driven since the last trip which is where I figure this happened.

Called the local Jeep salvage yard and they want $250 for a bare used stock tank. I pretty much thought that price sucked and decided to bite the bullet and get a Genrite Enduro tank which will add 5 gallons to my fuel capacity.

http://www.genright.com/ProductInfo....ductid=GST200X

I will now have an ACF gas tank skid for sale if anyone is interested. This skid will raise the tank 1" and also has the dimple for the fuel pump assembly. Its a great skid. $150 buyer pays to ship although I prefer not to skip and have someone in So Cal buy it and pick it up.

I have also had a persistent transmission leak which seemed to be coming from the cork pan gasket.....I wish
So now I have a rear transmission output and transfercase input seal coming.

The for sale post will obviously be modified again toreflect the value of the Genrite tank and I guess eventually I'll be able to post some progress on the cooler installs.....

 

[Lawrence]

I am definitely interested in getting the specs and info on the coolers. I am all for peace of mind when it comes to the heat of my engine components.

I did this mod about 3 months ago, here is the link if you are looking for some info http://jeepbbs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12385&page=2

when I boiled it last summer, the first thing I did when I got home was change the fluid.

Out of curiosity, do you know what the temp was when it boiled out of the dipstick?

 

[madizell]

Difficult to comment with authority for lack of baseline data. First 165 on 185 off is probably far too low. The engine should be running at 195 to 210, and that depends on where you test the temperature and how accurate your gauging equipment really is. Spikes up to 233 are not abnormal.

Question: do you have an infra-red temperature sensor? You can get one just about anywhere for under $75. With such a device, check your inlet and outlet hoses on the radiator for temperature difference. If you have 30 degrees of temperature drop across the radiator, it is working and spending more money there is probably just spending money.

You need to verify that the thermostat is actually working as it should, which means that it opens around 195 and is fully open around 210.

You need to verify that your fan (assuming you have a clutch fan) is functioning and not worn out. If it spins freely when cool, replace it. It should be movable, but stiff.

You need to verify that your radiator cap is working, which means that it seals correctly and holds pressure. There are still shops around that have cap testers. Get it tested to see if it holds at least the pressure stated on the cap, and if not, replace it.

If all else fails, check your water pump to verify that the impeller is not spinning on the shaft. To do this you have to remove the pump. If you clamp the shaft or pulley and can turn the impeller at all, replace it. Jeep pumps have a habit of having slightly loose impellers that won't circulate water at critical times, and if the shaft fit is loose, it gets worse when hot.

Many of these problems are reflected in the water temperature differential seen at the intake and outlet hoses, so check these temperatures first. Our 2003 race teammates in Australia dropped out of the Outback Challenge on the next to last day because of overheating, and all thoughts of what the issue could be were wrong. Thought it was a blown head gasket, etc., and it turned out to be a bad cap and an electric fan with a blade that was one inch smaller than it was supposed to be. The water pump was suspect as well and showed signs of bluing under the impeller suggesting that it was spinning at times.

Start with the assumption that the radiator that came in the vehicle is more than adequate to do the job, because it is, and go from there.

 

[robert j. yates]

Question: do you have an infra-red temperature sensor? You can get one just about anywhere for under $75. With such a device, check your inlet and outlet hoses on the radiator for temperature difference. If you have 30 degrees of temperature drop across the radiator, it is working and spending more money there is probably just spending money..

Yes...everything has been shot with the gun...numerous times in different configurations...stock radiator, 3 row brass and the current 2 row aluminum.

You need to verify that the thermostat is actually working as it should, which means that it opens around 195 and is fully open around 210..

Verified as well with numerous t-stats. I'm using Robert Shaw t-stats which are not Vatozone specials.

You need to verify that your fan (assuming you have a clutch fan) is functioning and not worn out. If it spins freely when cool, replace it. It should be movable, but stiff..

Again...tested with 2 different configurations. Stock and with the current Mopar 7 blade fan conversion and Hayden HD fan clutch. I have always been told that a good functioning fan clutch will give about 3/4's of a revolution when spun by hand...thats where I'm at.

You need to verify that your radiator cap is working, which means that it seals correctly and holds pressure. There are still shops around that have cap testers. Get it tested to see if it holds at least the pressure stated on the cap, and if not, replace it..

Again...verified with probably 3 or 4 different caps.

If all else fails, check your water pump to verify that the impeller is not spinning on the shaft. To do this you have to remove the pump. If you clamp the shaft or pulley and can turn the impeller at all, replace it. Jeep pumps have a habit of having slightly loose impellers that won't circulate water at critical times, and if the shaft fit is loose, it gets worse when hot..

I installed a brand new Hesco hi flow pump and t-stat housing when I built the motor...maybe 10K in milage on it. Water temps on the new motor are the same as with the old motor so its cooling capacity related.

Many of these problems are reflected in the water temperature differential seen at the intake and outlet hoses, so check these temperatures first. Our 2003 race teammates in Australia dropped out of the Outback Challenge on the next to last day because of overheating, and all thoughts of what the issue could be were wrong. Thought it was a blown head gasket, etc., and it turned out to be a bad cap and an electric fan with a blade that was one inch smaller than it was supposed to be. The water pump was suspect as well and showed signs of bluing under the impeller suggesting that it was spinning at times. .

Understood and I have been researching this extensively for a few years now. The Jeep runs fine, just on the high side of normal with some spikes that I would like to eliminate. I figure the seal for my transmission was weakeded due to heating the transmission up. I would like to keep the water temp spikes down to a more managable level as well....I like good margins of reserve.

Start with the assumption that the radiator that came in the vehicle is more than adequate to do the job, because it is, and go from there.

That would be exactly where I was 3-4 years ago. I have been told that the stock TJ radiator is good up to 400HP. The aluminum Novak radiator I have in there now is good up to 500 yet I still have a problem. I believe most of it is due to the fact that my AC condensor heats everything up even before the radiator has a chance to do its job....I have recorded only an 8* drop in water temps (at the hose from the infrared gun) between the top of the radiator and the bottom...and this is consistent, not just a one time measurement.

I'm ready to finally get the problem solved so I am looking at quality componants. Thanx for the input, its much appreciated. :beer:

 

[ntsqd]

Some various thots on this, hopefully at least some of it is helpful new info.

IR temp guns are susceptible to changes in surface condition. That is to say that a piece of shiny aluminum at 200*f and a black rubber hose at 200*f will show different temps on the IR temp gun. Flat black will give the most consistent readings.

For transitions from hard line to flex hose I like to use bulkhead union fittings poked thru a bracket or, heavens!, a bulkhead. Makes for a simple and robust point of anchored connection. Bundy tube easily flares 37*, so I cut off the 45* double flares, pitch the I.V. tube nuts, and go with AN/JIC tube nuts & sleeves.

Sometimes the Hi-flow T-Stats work against you. Not because they flow too much (I don't think that's possible), but because they don't provide enough flow restriction to keep the block under enough pressure to prevent localized hot spots. Coolant pressure in the block, because of the t-stat restriction, is normally higher than the psi setting of the cap. That added pressure helps prevent the thermal run-away condition that happens when a small area boils the coolant. Once the steam transition happens in an area of the coolant jacket the local temp skyrockets and trying to cool that steam back into a liquid is beyond the system's ability.