FWC; major design changes, issues, and value?

JCatt

Member
Apples and oranges.
Apples and oranges like comparing truck campers to surgeons. How many people die from truck campers every year? Scores die from medical mistakes. It’s a silly analogy. FWC makes a very good truck camper. Others are different and that’s good too. If you can’t get past the fact they look similar to older units and are based of the same original concept then it’s probably not for you. If you can’t see the difference in a 40 year old camper and a new one then maybe you haven’t looked or never really were. As far as condensation I’ve never had less than myself and two of my boys camping with me. I’ve even had all four in the cab over and myself at the dinette bed. We’ve never had a condensation issue. We leave the turnbuckle doors and the roof vents open, no problems. We’ve camped in the Midwest, the 4 corners states and south to NC. We don’t camp when it’s real cold and rarely use the heater. If I wanted a 4 season camper something else might be more ideal.
 

OmegaMan73

Observer
I've never owned a FWC and I'm currently a roof top tent sleeper. I would like to own a pop up camper, and my dad is looking to get one when he retires. We looked at them at the overland expo this year and they are nice units. Both of us are mechanical engineers so we look at things in a different light than some consumers. With that being said it brings me to this point. Why change the major design elements of the camper if what you have is a qualified, proven solution that may only improve with additions to the already existing platform? @kodiak-black how can you drastically improve a ball bearing? You can add low friction coatings to the races, you can cryo treat the components, you can choose a different material, but in the end it's a design that has a proven history. Sometimes you can't redesign the item, just maybe make additions to what is already there.
 

kodiak-black

Observer
Is it really? I think the one thing you leave out in your analogy is the fact that they are built on a production line(sort of) and they cost 25k, which is not expensive by today's standards. , you want perfect, then you would pay double and there would be zero market. Other than the condensation issue, which you wont fix, I am not sure what changes could be made. They already use modern materials, the latest proven solar, fabrics are updated, you can like I did get smooth sides, LED lighting etc. Heck, motorhomes are still being built with wood frames and stapled together. I get what you are saying, just don't really see that there is a lot to change.

Yeah I think so. I mean for example, the F series is on it's 13th or 14th generation, which means by definition means that they've changed the design significantly 13 or 14 times. And that's since the late 40's. So that's 14 redesigns in 60 years or so. This is evidenced by the fact that a 1940's F series looks nothing at all like, nor performs like a 2018 F- series. That can't be said for FWC campers. The changes have been small throughout the life of the product. That's why they look so similar from one decade to another.

I think the current configuration has been taken as far as it can go in terms of changes. There are KEY changes that can be implemented to address common issues pointed out by owners. Most of these changes are implemented naturally when something is redesigned from the ground up.

And I never said I was looking for perfect? I said I would hope that we would "be closer to perfect than not" after 46 years of development. Is that really asking a lot????

Do you really think it would DOUBLE the price?

Try $25,0000 for the Camp X. Watch the video (if you haven't already), watch what innovation and forward looks like, in it's very FIRST pop-up truck camper product. Imagine what it will perform like after it's 2nd or 3rd incarnation. I saw it in person.

Watch the video and then honestly tell me that there isn't room for real MEAT and POTATOES improvement on the FWC platform.

 

kodiak-black

Observer
Apples and oranges like comparing truck campers to surgeons. How many people die from truck campers every year? Scores die from medical mistakes. It’s a silly analogy. FWC makes a very good truck camper. Others are different and that’s good too. If you can’t get past the fact they look similar to older units and are based of the same original concept then it’s probably not for you. If you can’t see the difference in a 40 year old camper and a new one then maybe you haven’t looked or never really were. As far as condensation I’ve never had less than myself and two of my boys camping with me. I’ve even had all four in the cab over and myself at the dinette bed. We’ve never had a condensation issue. We leave the turnbuckle doors and the roof vents open, no problems. We’ve camped in the Midwest, the 4 corners states and south to NC. We don’t camp when it’s real cold and rarely use the heater. If I wanted a 4 season camper something else might be more ideal.


You're missing the point. The example was a measure of time. Choose Engineers, Cabinet makers Astronauts, College Professors, MBA's, NASCAR drivers, over the road truck drivers, any profession that requires a time commitment to become proficient at a professional level.

It's 46 years of development time! FWC has had 46 years, 16, 790 days, 402, 960 hours. 46 years and it's been described by someone who works at FWC as "not close to perfect".

I actually personally believe the design is closer to perfect than not.
 

JCatt

Member
You're missing the point. The example was a measure of time. Choose Engineers, Cabinet makers Astronauts, College Professors, MBA's, NASCAR drivers, over the road truck drivers, any profession that requires a time commitment to become proficient at a professional level.

It's 46 years of development time! FWC has had 46 years, 16, 790 days, 402, 960 hours. 46 years and it's been described by someone who works at FWC as "not close to perfect".

I actually personally believe the design is closer to perfect than not.
Ok my misunderstanding thanks for clarifying. . Perhaps Stan was trying to convey an attitude of humility and not complacency, but I can't speak for him or anyone at FWC. At my place of work we are more critical of ourselves than our customer would be.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
The FWC is like the Alaskan...hasn't changed much over the years...which may not be a bad thing. I like the Alaskans as I do the FWC's....but I like old vintage stuff too.

We live in a consumer based society...if you don't like a product you don't have to buy it. hell, I ********** about all the new fangled stuff anyways....gimme manual everything!

Heck, one day soon our vehicles will be able to go camping without us!
 
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JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
Some of us want a basic, proven camper that just gets the job done. We don't need to conform to the latest fads or fashion. We don't want to be beta testers for the most advanced materials or construction methods; we'll leave that to the $100,000 rolling mansion crowd. Blending into the most popular RV resorts is not on the radar.

My Grandby keeps me dry and comfortable, stores my stuff, rides well on my truck, and has gone as far back beyond as I was willing to go. Everything else is just fluff. I'm glad that someone is making campers for us and not just the 'hasta be the latest and greatest' crowd. And judging from FWC's lead time there are a lot of us.

jim
 

FordGuy1

Adventurer
You're missing the point. The example was a measure of time. Choose Engineers, Cabinet makers Astronauts, College Professors, MBA's, NASCAR drivers, over the road truck drivers, any profession that requires a time commitment to become proficient at a professional level.

It's 46 years of development time! FWC has had 46 years, 16, 790 days, 402, 960 hours. 46 years and it's been described by someone who works at FWC as "not close to perfect".

I actually personally believe the design is closer to perfect than not.

I get what you are saying, but honestly, like the Camp-x, which if it ever gets here it will be 50k, there is only so much you can do with a square box that goes into a fixed square box. But honestly, your comparsion to Ford trucks, and I work at Ford, the changes really are not that much. Its a hell of a lot easier to change body panels and trim then a square camper. I think its more the same, how many years did Ford use the 4.6 or 5.4? same transfer-case for 20 years, how many years has a Dana 60 or 44 Ford 8.25 been used? and still going today.
Curiosity, how well do you think that fiberglass non insulated roof will deal with condensation, that I am curious about.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Some of us want a basic, proven camper that just gets the job done. We don't need to conform to the latest fads or fashion. We don't want to be beta testers for the most advanced materials or construction methods; we'll leave that to the $100,000 rolling mansion crowd. Blending into the most popular RV resorts is not on the radar.

My Grandby keeps me dry and comfortable, stores my stuff, rides well on my truck, and has gone as far back beyond as I was willing to go. Everything else is just fluff. I'm glad that someone is making campers for us and not just the 'hasta be the latest and greatest' crowd. And judging from FWC's lead time there are a lot of us.

jim



The Camp X is pretty cool, but it is my understanding it won't be offered in a shell model...so if you want it, you have to pay $25K. Where-as some think it is inferior...you can get a FWC much cheaper as a shell. And save a bunch of money. Basically all you need anyways, just place to keep you warm and dry out of the elements at night...don't need anything too-too fancy to drag down dirt roads.

But honestly, your comparsion to Ford trucks, and I work at Ford, the changes really are not that much. Its a hell of a lot easier to change body panels and trim then a square camper. I think its more the same, how many years did Ford use the 4.6 or 5.4? same transfer-case for 20 years, how many years has a Dana 60 or 44 Ford 8.25 been used? and still going today.
.

One word.... E-Series.....or make that one letter, hyphen, one word. :D

Those were vertically unchanged for something like 40 years.
 
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kodiak-black

Observer
I get what you are saying, but honestly, like the Camp-x, which if it ever gets here it will be 50k, there is only so much you can do with a square box that goes into a fixed square box. But honestly, your comparsion to Ford trucks, and I work at Ford, the changes really are not that much. Its a hell of a lot easier to change body panels and trim then a square camper. I think its more the same, how many years did Ford use the 4.6 or 5.4? same transfer-case for 20 years, how many years has a Dana 60 or 44 Ford 8.25 been used? and still going today.
Curiosity, how well do you think that fiberglass non insulated roof will deal with condensation, that I am curious about.

I believe on the video the guy says the cost of the Camp X is $25k. There's actually a member on the forum who has purchased the Camp X in the video so he'll likely give a report on his findings.

As far as some things remaining the same like the Dana 60, 44, etc. Yes I totally agree dependent on use, simple is often the best option.

50 years from now a hammer will likely still look like a hammer. That said, we also have pneumatic nail guns and electric nail guns so something as simple and useful as hammer has actually evolved in the interest of building efficiency. Back before the first pneumatic nail gun I bet there was a lot of die-hards who refused to use it and stuck to their trusty hammer, eventually they probably came around. Heck I remember when I was growing up I remember my dad refused to by a car with fuel injection and power windows. He held out as long as he could, but obviously he relented.

I respect the fact that you work for Ford, but I think they've have changed quite a bit. I mean a 1947 F-series truck has nothing in common with a 2018 F-series except that both have a bed and 4 wheels. In terms of comfort features, technology, exterior design, exterior materials (aluminum) etc. I think they're a drastic departure actually. I mean what would you rather drive across the country, a 2018 truck or a 1950's version?

As far as a fiberglass non-insulated roof and condensation I really have no idea. The only thing I can think of for a comparison is that my wife and I have spent many a night sleeping in our truck bed with a Leer fiberglass shell on a sleeping platform. It has that fuzzy, carpet type covering on the interior, a common option on camper shells. It's a tight space with 2 warm bodied adults and we've slept in cold weather. I've never noticed condensation on the roof or walls. Again I'm not sure that's a good comparison. I do know that people who don't have that covering do often have condensation issues.

I often hear the term "thermal bridges" in relation to condensation. It is referenced in the video for the Camp X as they made attempts to reduce them as much as possible.

This conversation can go on forever. I like FWC's. I just feel like they've stopped developing their camper decades ago. The design was just never taken to the next level, whatever that level looks like. That's not saying it hasn't seen "improvements" over the last 30 years.

I think of the FWC as being in the middle of a production cycle of it's first generation. Similar to when a new model of truck comes out and it's production cycle is 8 years. Over the next 8 years they will make little tweaks here and there, new options, a new front grill or a new dash, some new technology is offered in year 8 that wasn't offered in year 1 for example. After year 8, they often start from scratch. They wipe the slate clean, take what they've learned, improve it, and make a new generation of truck.

I think of the FWC as being in it's first generation with only tweaks to the original design. It's just a really really long production cycle.
 

kodiak-black

Observer
I've never owned a FWC and I'm currently a roof top tent sleeper. I would like to own a pop up camper, and my dad is looking to get one when he retires. We looked at them at the overland expo this year and they are nice units. Both of us are mechanical engineers so we look at things in a different light than some consumers. With that being said it brings me to this point. Why change the major design elements of the camper if what you have is a qualified, proven solution that may only improve with additions to the already existing platform? @kodiak-black how can you drastically improve a ball bearing? You can add low friction coatings to the races, you can cryo treat the components, you can choose a different material, but in the end it's a design that has a proven history. Sometimes you can't redesign the item, just maybe make additions to what is already there.

Why change it? Because it can be improved. As an engineer I would think you'd always be looking for ways of improvement. Improved performance through better engineering. There are some categories that could potentially be improved.

Weight reduction
Insulating efficiency
Layout and design
Function of mechanical elements (efficiency of furnace, water heating, stove, refrigeration)

Look, in early automotive design it was the dash board that stopped your forward progress in the event of an accident. Then some engineer said, let's put seat belts in cars, years later another engineer said, let's put air bags in steering wheels, years later another engineer said, let's put airbags everywhere, yet another engineer said, let's make cars stop on their own...you see where this is going, right?

If you refuse to ask the question then you'll get exactly the answer you're looking for.

If you and your dad are mechanical engineers and you really can't see ANY room for improvement, I don't know what to say other than FWC has exactly what you're looking for!
 
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craig333

Expedition Leader
Layout and design. You get your choice of dinette locations, rollover couch etc. Pretty light already. Mechanical elements have all been improved over the years. I was disappointed to find out I can't just replace my old heater with the new one. Insulation, there is one place they definitely could improve (though they did ditch the old fiberglass insulation).

Four days off coming up for the holiday. Want my gps coords where I'll be camping? I'm sure the heater and fridge will get a workout (el. 9.3k) Bring your Jeep, I'll be towing mine.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Why change it? Because it can be improved.

I do agree that it should be improved...but there is also a saying "Let sleeping dogs lie..." If it is selling like hot cakes why change? Would think if sales started to hurt they would have to change, but as of now...why? ya know?


View the FWC as a 3 season camper, don't think many people use them for winter camping...(sure some do, but most don't) so no real reason to improve upon insulation. So all that thermal bridge stuff doesn't really matter to the majority. Only the hard core, which are few.

I do like the Camp-X....if you're doing a lot of cold weather camping, that is the one you should buy (or maybe) while it is probably good, think if you're going to build a cold weather popup, it should have hard sides. The soft sides don't quite make sense to me, would assume they would be noisy on those cold windy winter nights, that and as an insulating factor hard sides make more sense. Even though given the choice... say something like an Alaskan is a very old design, and cost a touch more. Would probalbly go that route because of the hard sides.

Would like to see something like this come out of Overland Explorer. Not the LC part (while cool) but the camper.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/travelling-cruisers.245430/

f3da36715db03820c236b055132b19b4.jpg


1401258.jpg
 
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