Help me spec out a new 2017 Tacoma

[DaveInDenver]

I like Toyota but they've really stopped innovating. Their whole line up is seemingly a decade old except the Mazda 2 ia.

When was Toyota ever innovative? Last to do IFS and actually the only ones to do a solid front mini truck at all. It took them until 1989 to do a real double wall bed or a V6. They were still selling carb trucks into the late 1980s, although it was base 2WD by the end. Even in 1991 when my last truck was new power steering was only standard on 4WD and DLX or higher trim. Even then my truck didn't come with A/C and had a bench seat and no cassette player. I think the only market leading thing a Hilux/Pickup/Tacoma ever did was the electric locker. Most everything else they waited to see what the market did. The last few years with the Tundra and Tacoma have been historically *very* fast moving on Toyota's part.

 

[p nut]

When was Toyota ever innovative? Last to do IFS and actually the only ones to do a solid front mini truck at all. It took them until 1989 to do a real double wall bed or a V6. They were still selling carb trucks into the late 1980s, although it was base 2WD by the end. Even in 1991 when my last truck was new power steering was only standard on 4WD and DLX or higher trim. Even then my truck didn't come with A/C and had a bench seat and no cassette player. I think the only market leading thing a Hilux/Pickup/Tacoma ever did was the electric locker. Most everything else they waited to see what the market did. The last few years with the Tundra and Tacoma have been historically *very* fast moving on Toyota's part.

Perhaps not in the truck realm, but I do remember Toyota making some leaps and bounds in the performance car sector. (perhaps this is what PirateMcGee was alluding to). MR2, Supra, Celica, etc. Those little supercharged, mid-engine RWD MR2's were a HOOT to drive. Supra is an icon. Celica boasted ones of the highest HP/Liter in its time. They're no strangers to innovation. They just choose not to focus on their trucks. I understand--it's not their bread/butter. Still disappointing, though.

 

[p nut]

They have stopped innovating, but are the others all that much different? Yeah Ford has aluminum bodies and turbo gassers, but they aren't leaps and bounds better. Little bit more power and marginal mpg gains...

I don't think these innovations will necessarily be "leaps and bounds better." But still, progress is made. When a full size gets the same MPG as a mid-size...well, there is definitely room for improvement there. Even if there may not be, at least try. I have 2 friends and 1 family member with 5.7L Tundra's. None are getting better than 15mpg. 13MPG combined average. Gearing could be a problem. Why not give some options for a different rear end? Wish they would, like Ford/Chevy. I like full size trucks so my family would be comfortable, but if mine were getting that dismal MPG, we'd be in something smaller. And gotta love that it only took them 8 years to realize a 23 gallon tank is too small for a truck getting low teen MPG.
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Hope they've got something up their sleeve, though. Hybrid could be interesting. Although, I could see headaches for the first several years. Not sure I'd trust one in the backcountry...

 

[Clutch]

I don't think these innovations will necessarily be "leaps and bounds better." But still, progress is made. When a full size gets the same MPG as a mid-size...well, there is definitely room for improvement there. Even if there may not be, at least try. I have 2 friends and 1 family member with 5.7L Tundra's. None are getting better than 15mpg. 13MPG combined average. Gearing could be a problem. Why not give some options for a different rear end? Wish they would, like Ford/Chevy. I like full size trucks so my family would be comfortable, but if mine were getting that dismal MPG, we'd be in something smaller. And gotta love that it only took them 8 years to realize a 23 gallon tank is too small for a truck getting low teen MPG.
_
Hope they've got something up their sleeve, though. Hybrid could be interesting. Although, I could see headaches for the first several years. Not sure I'd trust one in the backcountry...

Think the economy is what hurt the Tundra development, 2nd gen came out in '07. Pretty much when the economy started its' tailspin. Remember there was talk of a HD diesel? brand new platform with soft sales compared to the Big 3, I "think" that is one of the reasons pulled back from developing the Tundra more. Seems like they tried to go toe to toe with the others, then stopped. Still a damn good truck, mileage seems the only complaint from most....has proven to be one of the most reliable trucks out there. I dunno, rather give up a little mileage and have truck that can go 1'000'000 miles. Gaaaad that would be one hell of fuel bill!

Yeah I don't know why they did that with the fuel tank. Mine has a 15 gallon....IIRC in 2001 they up it to 18...I should of swapped in an 18 when I did the fuel pump this past fall, but didn't think of it until later, oh well.


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Hybrid, yeah I think it would be cool. Know how some of the hybrid super cars are using the tech as a booster. Would like to see it used a torque booster in a truck platform. gobs of torque from 0 RPM would be pretty awesome. Maybe offroading you could idle along in 4Low using only battery power.

Headaches, maybe...reading up on Priuses, seems like you can easily get 200-300K miles out of them.


http://artofgears.com/2016/02/23/this-second-generation-toyota-prius-has-close-to-600000-miles/


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That said, I am a but of a luddite...wish Toyota kept the Tacoma small, and same with the Tundra. Focused more on fuel economy instead of girth. Don't care for that "Bigger is Better" mentality of most here in 'Murica.

 

[PirateMcGee]

They have stopped innovating, but are the others all that much different? Yeah Ford has aluminum bodies and turbo gassers, but they aren't leaps and bounds better. Little bit more power and marginal mpg gains.

The new diesels may change things, but the high buy in/repair cost might be a hindrance. Time will tell.

At this point. Would like to see Toyota do hybrid truck, as their hybrid systems have proven themselves for long term reliability.

Manage the system for torque and much needed improvements in fuel consumption.

As you mentioned. Mr2, celica all trac, supra, 22ret, lexus ls400, previa (awd supercharged van?!), T100, corolla sr5, prius were all pretty awesome and innovative. Toyota doesn't even try these days in the car or truck market. Ford has at least gone with an aluminum body, turbo charged small discplacement 6s, fancy suspension models, 8 speed transmissions, pretty nice standard equipment, and made huge reliabilty strides.

My 86 4runner and 93 toyota pickup got the same or better gas mileage as a new tacoma 2trfe, had the same towing capacity, the same rear supension (that still sags today haha), heck the 5speed is even from the 80's as are the rear brakes, as is the lack of standard cruise/intermittent wipers, and it only has 40 more hp. I also wouldn't be surprised if the frame and fenders managed to rust immediatetly.....

 

[PirateMcGee]

Also the Regular cab long bed mini. What happened to it?!

 

[DaveInDenver]

They just choose not to focus on their trucks. I understand--it's not their bread/butter. Still disappointing, though.

I see it a different way. Corollas, Hilux/Tacoma, Previa/Sienna/Hiace. Those are their bread-and-butter models. They are boring because they build hundreds of thousands of them annually.

Not sure I'd trust one in the backcountry...

And this is why I think they don't push the limits. Reliability. Toyota is conservative and they don't seem to change things that don't need to be changed.

Contrast this with the domestic and European makers. It wasn't that long ago that you'd find 3 different alternators on the same engine in the same year on a Ford F150 and the only way to know you get the right one is was to take it off and compare it on the spot. Germans tinker and tinker with a design until they make it so intricate that it requires 3 special tools to fix.

Until only recently the idea that you could take a part from a 1980 Toyota and put it on a 1993 would have made a VW or GM engineer's head explode. Or being able to use parts from a FZJ80 axle on a FJ40, that's just insane. Heck, the 8" diff from a 1979 to 2015 Hilux/Pickup/Tacoma/Prado/4Runner and front axle from a 80 series was/is interchangeable. That's why things don't change much with Toyotas, global and middle-of-nowhere parts.

 

[p nut]

Think the economy is what hurt the Tundra development, 2nd gen came out in '07. Pretty much when the economy started its' tailspin. Remember there was talk of a HD diesel? brand new platform with soft sales compared to the Big 3, I "think" that is one of the reasons pulled back from developing the Tundra more. Seems like they tried to go toe to toe with the others, then stopped. Still a damn good truck, mileage seems the only complaint from most....has proven to be one of the most reliable trucks out there. I dunno, rather give up a little mileage and have truck that can go 1'000'000 miles. Gaaaad that would be one hell of fuel bill!

Yeah I don't know why they did that with the fuel tank. Mine has a 15 gallon....IIRC in 2001 they up it to 18...I should of swapped in an 18 when I did the fuel pump this past fall, but didn't think of it until later, oh well.


--------

Hybrid, yeah I think it would be cool. Know how some of the hybrid super cars are using the tech as a booster. Would like to see it used a torque booster in a truck platform. gobs of torque from 0 RPM would be pretty awesome. Maybe offroading you could idle along in 4Low using only battery power.

Headaches, maybe...reading up on Priuses, seems like you can easily get 200-300K miles out of them.


http://artofgears.com/2016/02/23/this-second-generation-toyota-prius-has-close-to-600000-miles/


------

That said, I am a but of a luddite...wish Toyota kept the Tacoma small, and same with the Tundra. Focused more on fuel economy instead of girth. Don't care for that "Bigger is Better" mentality of most here in 'Murica.

Few MPG's doesn't seem like much, but man, when you fill up, the pain is real. I just couldn't stomach driving a 1/2 ton at the cost of a 3/4 ton. I've said before, if Toyota would've made an attempt at any sort of improvement in that arena, I'd probably be in one now. Doesn't it really take that much innovation to offer some 3.55 gears? It still baffles me why they geared them things so low. Like we've discussed before, how many Tundra's do you see towing/hauling a load vs. empty?
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I've seen those Prius cabs with 400k miles. Ton of stop and go, and hardly any issues. But I wonder how a battery system would handle rough/bumpy offroad? But it would be cool to line the roof with solar cells and see what kind of MPG can be squeezed out of a hybrid system.

 

[p nut]

I see it a different way. Corollas, Hilux/Tacoma, Previa/Sienna/Hiace. Those are their bread-and-butter models. They are boring because they build hundreds of thousands of them annually.

And this is why I think they don't push the limits. Reliability. Toyota is conservative and they don't seem to change things that don't need to be changed.

Contrast this with the domestic and European makers. It wasn't that long ago that you'd find 3 different alternators on the same engine in the same year on a Ford F150 and the only way to know you get the right one is was to take it off and compare it on the spot. Germans tinker and tinker with a design until they make it so intricate that it requires 3 special tools to fix.

Until only recently the idea that you could take a part from a 1980 Toyota and put it on a 1993 would have made a VW or GM engineer's head explode. Or being able to use parts from a FZJ80 axle on a FJ40, that's just insane. Heck, the 8" diff from a 1979 to 2015 Hilux/Pickup/Tacoma/Prado/4Runner and front axle from a 80 series was/is interchangeable. That's why things don't change much with Toyotas, global and middle-of-nowhere parts.

Isn't the Camry their best selling model? I don't know what the international sales look like, but Japanese companies top sellers have always been compact cars or sedans (I believe).
_
Toyota certainly can innovate. If FI on high-performance sports cars isn't pushing the limits, I don't know what is. They were still able to produce a reliable engine, while maintaining an edge on performance. And the Celica was pumping out something like 180HP or 190HP from an N/A 1.8L, while still getting 30MPG (they also used this in an Ariel Atom in EU). And this was in the early 00's, where it was giving regular ol' compact econoboxes a run for their money. And they also jumped in on the hybrid/electric game early on. I'd call that innovation as well. Trucks aren't their focus, obviously.

 

[Clutch]

Also the Regular cab long bed mini. What happened to it?!

Wasn't really a mini, closest thing was a RCLB was 1st Tundra.

About the closest thing we can get to HiLux work horse we can get in the States.







Hard to sell long beds now-a-days. Let alone RC's....the pickup has become the family station wagon...not much use for a real bed anymores.

Like we've discussed before, how many Tundra's do you see towing/hauling a load vs. empty?

About the same as F150's.
_

But I wonder how a battery system would handle rough/bumpy offroad? But it would be cool to line the roof with solar cells and see what kind of MPG can be squeezed out of a hybrid system.

No idea, but would like to see it.

Trucks aren't their focus, obviously.

That's ok...trucks are supposed to be anvils. Fixed with bailing wire, duct tape, and a hammer. Maybe some JB Weld in a pinch...

 

[Clutch]

I'm not sure there's all that much need for innovation in the mid-size market. Competition - sure, but outright innovation may be a stretch.

I am not saying like it is bad thing. Honestly I think they have gone a little far with the electronic gee-gaws. Some of us still want a mostly basic truck, which is nearly impossible to get any more. What was once an option like AC, power windows, automatic trans, etc...is now standard.

Heck, very hard to find a manual trans anymore...Toyota gives you only 2 trim levels if you want an Access Cab and a manny. SR 4 banger...or jump up to the V6 Sport, nothing inbetween. So if I want a the bare bones ACLB with a manny and a V6 I am SOL. Kinda lame on Toyota's part.

We really don't get the basic utility trucks here, like they do over seas. Even those come with a bunch of now standard "options" of yore.

Would be awfully nice if we could get this.

http://www.toyota.com.au/hilux/spec...extra-cab-cab-chassis-24l-turbo-diesel-manual

View attachment 405033

One factor that I haven't yet seen mentioned is the possibility of personal vehicles as we know them to be a completely ancient and forgotten concept in some 20-30 years. We may very well soon be getting driven around by fully automated, electric or hydrogen vehicles that we don't even own, but rather call as we would a taxi. Toyota may be wanting to put their innovation resources into what it sees as the future, rather than the dying market.

Yeah the day is coming....in the not too distant future unfortunately.

 

[p nut]

That's ok...trucks are supposed to be anvils. Fixed with bailing wire, duct tape, and a hammer. Maybe some JB Weld in a pinch...

Man, then you'd better start looking back a few more decades. Even your trucks got a butt load of computerized "gee-gaws". My father in law had an old f100 and used to tell me about the jankiest ghetto fixes on that thing that would in no way work on any modern trucks, including the barebones SR Taco.
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The best solution is to just embrace the changes. Autos are AOK. Say it with me. Autos are AOK. ABS is my BFF. Gee Gaws make me Hee Haw.

 

[PirateMcGee]

I am not saying like it is bad thing. Honestly I think they have gone a little far with the electronic gee-gaws. Some of us still want a mostly basic truck, which is nearly impossible to get any more. What was once an option like AC, power windows, automatic trans, etc...is now standard.

Heck, very hard to find a manual trans anymore...Toyota gives you only 2 trim levels if you want an Access Cab and a manny. SR 4 banger...or jump up to the V6 Sport, nothing in between. So if I want a the bare bones ACLB with a manny and a V6 I am SOL. Kinda lame on Toyota's part.

That's another thing I just don't get with the line up. Why can you get a double cab V6 SR 4wd but not an extended cab V6 SR manual with a utility package?! It's maddening! The SR5 V6 is auto only and it's $8,000 more than a SR 4wd Utility package GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. For what? Cruise control and two cylinders.....awesome.

This past weekend camping (uberlanding) I pulled 21mpg on a 4 hour trip out of my 16 year old 150k mile 4wd 3.5 (200 hp) Sport with 265/75r16s, a roof rack, and some off pavement. Guess that's why I still haven't bought anything newish that's 4wd. Heck I'll probably end up just buying a second one for $2500 as a back up some where and instead buy a new Miata or 124 Abarth for daily duty. The new stuff in the 4wd market is awfully lame or $40k+

 

[DaveInDenver]

The Tacoma optioning is wonky, isn't it? You have to spend the money to get a TRD to get a stick. I suspect Toyota doesn't really want to sell manual transmissions. An SR5 Access Cab with a V6/6-speed is exactly what I'd want and I bet that would be the case with a lot of people. I'd get the SR 4 cylinder/5-speed if I had to replace my truck right now but it's only because I don't think the TRD Offroad price is justified when all I really want is the e-locker.

I have the TRD OR but I got it used so the calculus was different. I've been removing things I don't want so I'm in effect cratering the value of my truck by taking a TRD to a quasi SR/SR5 kind of thing. I have a line on base model doors with crank windows, for example. I'm taking out the inverter, which is under the center console and right where I want to put a Tuffy box.

 

[p nut]

The Tacoma optioning is wonky, isn't it? You have to spend the money to get a TRD to get a stick..

Do you think that's profit driven, or just the lack of resources to make various options available? Same thing's happening with the Tundra. i.e. you have to get at least SR5 Premium to get the bigger 39 gallon tank. That's what drew me to Ford--you can get any engine (at the lower trim levels), any rear end with an optional e-locker. I'm hoping that's the case with the new Ranger as well.