HF Radios For “Expo” Use.

[Mashurst]

A quick search revealed very little talk about HF use or equipment. I'd like to start a conversation primarily on the subject of radios. I don't have any money for an HF radio right now so I am just dreaming here. I'm not going to go right out and buy one but I do hope to buy one in the next year or so. This will be my first HF rig with the exception of an ol' 10m rig I have. I got my General a bit over a year ago now, and will be doing Extra in the next year or so.
There are three players and maybe a fourth as far as I can see. I will break down the pros and cons for each as I see them but I would love to get the input of other with more experience and that have used them or that use HF from the “trail”.

Yaesu FT-857D $789.95
From where I sit this is the one I figure I'm most likely to end up with.
Pros:
-It's the smallest
-It's cheapest
Cons:
-Basic filtering
-Small screen
-200 memories

Yeasu FT-897D 914.95+109.95=$1124.90
I like the idea of a portable radio that I could use away from the vehicle such as in “mountain toping”
Pros:
-Built to be use anywhere
Cons:
-Bulky
-Not all controls reachable from remote face
-Battery not included and it's a $109.95 Ni-MH. My experience with these is they only last a couple years at best and maybe not even that long bouncing around in my Jeep. So it may make more sense to get the smaller 857 and use it with a cheap lead acid or a fancy LiON or LiPO

Icom IC-7000 $1269.95
I know a number of people that have these or the 706 and speak very highly of them. They could help me with them if I need it.
Pros:
-Better filtering than the yeasu out of the box. As far as I can tell this is what makes it worth more money.
-Lots of memories @503
-Build in Attenuator
Cons:
-Price
-Bigger than the 857

Kenwood TS-480SAT $914.95
This one does not quite compare to the other because it lacks the VHF/UHF capability, thus one would need to run a second radio. This may not be all bad as I'm not sure how much HF I will really end up doing from the driver's seat. Maybe having an HF radio just packed along for use in camp would be a better deal anyway.
Pros:
-Built in tuner
-Nice big screen
-Nice layout with everything on the front
-Reported to be a very reliable radio
Cons:
-Need to run a second radio for VHF/UHF
-Optional filters

Any comments on relative ease of use, vehicle mounting, ease of removal for use in camp or mountain tops, on air performance, filtering, raggedness, reliability, or things I'm failing to take into consideration? Is there another radio should be considered?

 

[Blue one]

Mas,
In Aus we predominantly use Codan or Barrett HF sets.

Check out the web sites as both are good units.

Also pays to have them set up with a telephone connect.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Ozarker]

Would you consider buying a better rig on the used market, probably a better deal. You might find something built up, with filters, power supply, maybe some other goodies. Most Hams take care of nice rigs....

 

[xtatik]

I'm only going to comment on the units I've compared in making my own decisions. I'll add that Dave brings up an important point when considering HF. That is, whether or not you intend to use it "portable" as opposed to "mobile". It's also clear you're wanting FM bands as well.

First off....the "mobile" environment is a crappy one for chasing weak signal or DX stations on HF. No amount of filtering will help in pulling out weak signals when competing with engine and road noise. I'm not talking about RF or EMI noise, but actual ambient or "cab" noise. And, too commonly the filtration can be over-applied to the point that it actually distorts the signal. Add to this, the fact that the best of HF mobile antennas....are crappy antennas.
For me, it came down to choosing between the 857 and the 7000 for mobile. For the money, I chose the 857. At that time, the 7000 was fairly new and had some bugs. Similar to the 706, it was having some heat and finals issues.
I also knew I would be purchasing an additional HF radio strictly for "portable" purposes, so this affected my decisionmaking as well.

Neither radio has roofing filters. For me, this is mandatory for a radio I'll use for weak signal work. The Noise Blankers, Digital Noise Reduction, Digital Bandpass Filters, and Notch Filters worked equally well on both units.
With regards to displays on mobile units. IMO, the less...the better. Most of the settings on these smaller radios are buried 2 and 3 deep on multifunction knobs and buttons. If you think you'll be adjusting them on the fly while splitting your attention between the road and the display....you are going to die. Most of these settings are "set it and forget it" types of settings anyway. On my 857, I think there was a period of a couple of weeks of getting used to the menus and finding the settings I liked, but after that, I rarely ever touch the radio head unit at all. I completely control all of the radios functions through the DTMF microphone. I rarely look down at the rig....when I do it's usually a quick glance for frequency reference on HF or repeater selection on FM.

Yaesu FT-857D $789.95
From where I sit this is the one I figure I'm most likely to end up with.
Pros:
-It's the smallest
-It's cheapest
Cons:
-Basic filtering
-Small screen
-200 memories

Agree with your points. Although, I'd say it had more than adequate display and filtering for the mobile environment. Upgrade filtering is available, and would still cost less than the 7000.

Yeasu FT-897D 914.95+109.95=$1124.90
I like the idea of a portable radio that I could use away from the vehicle such as in “mountain toping”
Pros:
-Built to be use anywhere
Cons:
-Bulky
-Not all controls reachable from remote face
-Battery not included and it's a $109.95 Ni-MH. My experience with these is they only last a couple years at best and maybe not even that long bouncing around in my Jeep. So it may make more sense to get the smaller 857 and use it with a cheap lead acid or a fancy LiON or LiPO

Too big for mountain-topping. Much better similarly sized radios available and for less $$. Battery life is short and better battery solutions are available. Difficult to mount as a "mobile" radio. This radio is electronically identical to the 857. Not similar...identical.

Icom IC-7000 $1269.95
I know a number of people that have these or the 706 and speak very highly of them. They could help me with them if I need it.
Pros:
-Better filtering than the yeasu out of the box. As far as I can tell this is what makes it worth more money.
-Lots of memories @503
-Build in Attenuator
Cons:
-Price
-Bigger than the 857

The 7000 occupies an odd space in the market. It has the better IF DSP, but it's advantages won't be noticeable in a noisy mobile environment. This filtration could be useful for stationary or operation outside the vehicle, but it lacks a roofing filter in the first IF....for a DX/weak signal chasing machine...this won't cut it and is a deal killer for me.
Also, although it has the largest of displays, IMO just as ICOM has done with the overall radio package in this case.....they pack too much into it. This is a lesson in.."just because it has a bigger display, doesn't mean it'll be easier to read". When I've used this radio (while stationary), I find myself having to "hunt" within the tiny screen for the info I really need. I would imagine you could de-clutter it by turning off some features, but one thing is certain in my mind, it offers way too much information than is necessary for operating while mobile.
For that kind of money, I'd buy another FT-950 for home, which would easily surpass the 7000's receiver performance. Or better yet, save another couple hundred and get the new Kenwood 590.

For portable, I picked up the Yaesu FT-450at...I scabbed on an 847 tilt bail and couldn't be happier with it. No more having to yank the 857 out when I wanted to set up on a table. It's got an extremely hot (meaning sensitive) and stable receiver and all the features and IF filtration I need.

 

[DarioCarrera]

I have and use my mobile HF unit quite a bit. And I love having the capability to use it. For some reason lots of hams don't invest so much on having HF on a mobile unit (at least down here). I can tell you lots about the 857D since its the unit I operate on my Land Crusier. I have used several of the other radios you mention but never mobile.

The 857d may be the cheapest one on the block but I can tell you its a great unit. Mine has been performing flawlessly for the past 3 years on 2 different rigs. YES, I would add the filters, and YES you'll hear plenty of bad things about the ATAS antenna, in reality its nice. Its not going to perform like a 3 element yagi and don't expect it to. But it gets the job done, ALL THE TIME!!!

The 897 I also consider it more of a PORTABLE unit. I have never considered it a mobile unit. I have operated one and its a nice unit, given you purchase all the accessories required. As an HF unit, its exactly the same performance as the 857, at least from my perspective.

The IC 7000 its a great unit. The only thing it lacks is a coffee making capability while DX'ing. However, I have friends who own them and the all complain on the same thing: THEY HEAT UP!!!! So if you purchase it, where ever you place it, make sure it has PLENTY OF AIR!!!

The TS 480SAT. I must say every time I look at this unit I fall in love with it more and more. If I had the opportunity, I might acquire it!!! I think they are worth it!

Yes there are other units on the market, for example 2 friends of mine have the TS50 on they cars and they don't complain, A guy in Colombia (HK) is asking me to asist him with intall tips for his IS 7200 on a pickup...

The final call is yours, all we can do is assist!!!


My verdict: MOBILE HF IS FUNNNNNNNNNNNN :victory:

 

[Tennmogger]

If your expedition involves mud, rain, thousands of miles of rough road while bouncing in the back of a heavy truck, and possible total radio submersion, :snorkel: look at ex-military HF gear::sombrero:

Military packsets usually cover all HF bands, including Alaska Emergency, CB, etc. Most operate multi-mode, have their own antenna, and an antenna tuner built in. Might not have lower sideband for 40m and 80m. There will be no bells and whistles, no delicate display to get black in the sun, and you sure don't want to have to carry it far, but it'll probably work fine no matter what you do to it.

I also use an FT-857 mounted in the cab of the truck. A good radio for the price.

Bob WB4ETT

 

[xtatik]

Engine QRM is darn near impossible to kill to below about S6 and so you're not working weak station DX.

Dave, do you have the blanker cranked full? It will usually do the job.

 

[DarioCarrera]

That's odd, I don't get that much engine noise in the 857 with the engine running. The only time I have experienced noise over s6 is near power lines or electrical fences.

 

[Hltoppr]

Excellent thread, as I just passed my General exam Saturday and am now looking at a portable HF unit; likely more for ARES use with an NVIS antenna setup.

I really like the 897; good to know that it's the same as the 857....

-H-

 

[rambrush]

I started out going to this company

http://www.gacopper.com/Braid.html

Mine is a Toyota Tundra and it had a ton of noise on HF I grounded the exhaust front and rear. All 4 corners of the canopy the cab front fenders and hood. Then the engine to the frame. Used a lot of braid but no more noise

Yeah, I dunno. :-/

Noise blanker is on. My truck is an EMI nightmare I think. Engine off, stationary things are fine, in fact great. Running, on some bands it's S8~S9, both hash and periodic. Injector (or ignition, not sure) tick - check. Alternator whine - check. It's not just HF, VHF is noisy on SSB and AM. The NB does make a difference but hardly cancels it all.

I've got the power straight from the battery, a LC filter on the power and a common mode choke on the HF/6 feedline. I have not tried bypassing the injectors and pump, just don't want to open that can o' worms digging into a brittle 21 year old harness... I have a bracket to mount a GM alternator on my 22R-E, so when I do that I'll once over the diodes and solder on bypass caps.

It does help to keep the pre-amp off and IPO on (one in the same with Yaesu). With the pre-amp off the QRM is much lower, but like I say that pretty much negates weak signal working while mobile. OTOH, below 20m the pre-amp really isn't needed most of the time.

 

[3Deserts]

I'm only studying for my Tech license, so please pardon a potentially dumb question, but you guys'll try to DX even while driving? Isn't that fairly tough?

Or is the conversation about engine/etc. interference because you'll keep the motor running while parked and talking?

And, a recommendation please:

My goal is to get my General license, mainly because some of the areas I travel in have no reliable VHF/UHF repeaters (Saline Valley, parts of Death Valley, other desert/Eastern California areas), and it would mainly be for emergency situations. Maximum range/reaching around the globe isn't really necessary, just far enough and over a couple of mountain ranges to make contact with someone who can summons help. I don't need to talk while moving, and most likely, would have been parked anyway, and the rig should be more or less an 'instant on' kind of system--no having to set up antennas and so forth.

Thoughts?

Also, unrelated to those needs, opinions on the Yaesu FT-817 for ostensible "backpacking/backcountry" use (although I cringe at the weight)?"

http://www.hamcity.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=205&idproduct=1152

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to being able to join you on the airwaves!

 

[DarioCarrera]

I'm only studying for my Tech license, so please pardon a potentially dumb question, but you guys'll try to DX even while driving? Isn't that fairly tough?

Or is the conversation about engine/etc. interference because you'll keep the motor running while parked and talking?

And, a recommendation please:

My goal is to get my General license, mainly because some of the areas I travel in have no reliable VHF/UHF repeaters (Saline Valley, parts of Death Valley, other desert/Eastern California areas), and it would mainly be for emergency situations. Maximum range/reaching around the globe isn't really necessary, just far enough and over a couple of mountain ranges to make contact with someone who can summons help. I don't need to talk while moving, and most likely, would have been parked anyway, and the rig should be more or less an 'instant on' kind of system--no having to set up antennas and so forth.

Thoughts?

Also, unrelated to those needs, opinions on the Yaesu FT-817 for ostensible "backpacking/backcountry" use (although I cringe at the weight)?"

http://www.hamcity.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=205&idproduct=1152

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to being able to join you on the airwaves!

Regarding the first part about engine noise, yes. Its about engine noise in getting into the equipment. The simple truth is some car manufacturers have more than others, but we always try to lower it as much as possible with grounding. IT HELPS!

Driving and Dxing DONT mix well, For me to want to pull over for a station it must be a really good dx station, a new country, a dxpedition of some sort, but while driving, most definitely the answer is NO.


Regarding your setup, I'm not gonna try to change your mind on your ideas, which are fine as they are but have you considered the following:

- At some point it might be you receiving a call for help, and you being the one having to assist someone else, it maybe a fellow expo rig in trouble, or maybe a more serious emergency/disaster situation.

- Try not to limit your Distance, because at some point, conditions like QRM, propagation, time, working band, may be with you or against you. If I were you, I woud try to make my rig, the most felxible unit possible. In order to be up in minutes, anytime, anywhere, with a vertical antena, or a dipole.

Is my rig flexible... you bet...

I have the capability to be up in 3-4 bands at the same time, and I can set up different antennas from the same rig.

Again this is just a thought from my experience, in the end we all have to make up our own minds.

 

[rambrush]

DX on the road no way, its hard enough trying to understand some call signs. pile ups all wanting that contact trying to recall what number you are on. much better to park and dx.

 

[dox]

To respond to the original post and a few others here, I really think that the FT-857 represents the best value for money. I'm working on how I would do a setup like this right now, and I just keep coming back to the 857.

I currently have an Alinco DX-70, and it's a great little unit too, however since they've been discontinued I'm having a hard time finding a head separation cable, etc. for it now that I want to take it mobile.

I also think the ATAS-120 is nice, however I'm probably going to go with a dual-band antenna for VHF/UHF and a manually switched HF mobile antenna like the Opek HVT-400 or HVT-600 and an inexpensive LDG auto-tuner for a more cost effective option.

 

[James86004]

Thanks for this thread, everyone. I have been thinking long and hard about mobile HF, and it never occurred to me that what I really wanted was "portable" HF, that is, use it at camp rather than while driving.