High Efficiency Air Conditioning Units for non-generator powered campers

[adam88]

Fwiw, I was really planning on a fujitsu, but all of the hvac guys I talked to told me to stay away from them, citing poor longevity etc. which struck me as particularly worrisome in a camper application. Its completely a few guys opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but worth considering for something that is going to be bouncing around. I went with a daikin unit, 9000 btu, a little less efficient.

Daikin FTXS09LVJU

SEER 24.5, EER 15.3, cooling watts 590. The 590 is for continuous operation, based on square footage cooled, we figure it will only be running 25% of the time, so hoping for a real world watt consumption of less that 400. If the US does what the rest of the world has, and starts using R32 refrigerant which has a better COP than R410a, we should start to see some more efficient units available here. Daikin is already proposing it, but not in the small mini split segment for now. Their Ururu Salara has about the best EER out there, but isn't available here.

That's so weird because I have heard the same thing about Daikin. The mini split market seems cut throat, lots of bad mouthing on all sides. I heard stuff along the lines of "Fujitsu or Mitsibushi just avoid Daikin". But like everything I take it with a grain of salt. I think a lot of techs who spew stuff like Daikin do it because they are unfamiliar with it. I've also heard bad stuff about Fujitsu and Mitsibushi.

One thing, I am not familiar with the Daikin. Is it freeze proof also to -27 or around there?

 

[S2DM]

I believe it's -15 or maybe 20 on the Daikin but would have to check.
What I did was find an HVAC guy that was interested in the project who agreed to warranty the unit like it was in a home. We'll see if he holds up but he's doing the Install with me and offered a ten year parts guarantee. That was my big reason outside of efficiency for going with a residential unit. Parts and service anywhere. I think with any of these, it will have a diminished service life and if that doesn't bother you (we were ok with having to occasionally service parts) then it's a great solution. I'll report back as soon as I get my unit running in the next few months.


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[adam88]

I believe it's -15 or maybe 20 on the Daikin but would have to check.
What I did was find an HVAC guy that was interested in the project who agreed to warranty the unit like it was in a home. We'll see if he holds up but he's doing the Install with me and offered a ten year parts guarantee. That was my big reason outside of efficiency for going with a residential unit. Parts and service anywhere. I think with any of these, it will have a diminished service life and if that doesn't bother you (we were ok with having to occasionally service parts) then it's a great solution. I'll report back as soon as I get my unit running in the next few months.


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That is great that the warranty will apply. I am prepared to throw these units out every 3-4 years if needed to be honest. They are relatively inexpensive. If I do go this route I would mount with rubber mounts to help with vibrations. I intend to use it for heat and AC, it sounds like you just intend to use it for AC???

 

[S2DM]

No, heat too. Same idea, I've been looking at vibration isolation mounts and if it last 3-4 years, I'd consider it a win. Our general plan for heat was to use the Daikin for all initial heat. If we have good solar input (we have 1260 watts on the roof) then we'll stick with the Daikin, if not, we'll run the espar to maintain heat. I haven't played with it first hand, but I've been told the Daikin will heat things up much more quickly than the espar will.


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[adam88]

No, heat too. Same idea, I've been looking at vibration isolation mounts and if it last 3-4 years, I'd consider it a win. Our general plan for heat was to use the Daikin for all initial heat. If we have good solar input (we have 1260 watts on the roof) then we'll stick with the Daikin, if not, we'll run the espar to maintain heat. I haven't played with it first hand, but I've been told the Daikin will heat things up much more quickly than the espar will.


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Sounds like a great setup. 1.26kw of solar is a good amount. Seems like we are seeing some crazy solar setups now-a-days with costs coming down. 1kw of solar only costs about $1300.

What is your battery setup going to look like? I assume you're going lithium ion? If so, what type? Balqon? I have seen a few people going with Balqon 700ah (they redistribute Watson). Have heard bad things about their support and communication.

 

[S2DM]

We have 400ah of Victron lithiums. We went with the whole Victron suite, similar to LeishaShannon's set up. Everything talks to each other, and has shut offs between truck and camper, solar and mppt, dc and dc load, so you can set thresholds on everything. Considering a third 200ah battery, left space for it, but I'm hoping I can get by using mostly electric with the 2 batteries.


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[adam88]

We have 400ah of Victron lithiums. We went with the whole Victron suite, similar to LeishaShannon's set up. Everything talks to each other, and has shut offs between truck and camper, solar and mppt, dc and dc load, so you can set thresholds on everything. Considering a third 200ah battery, left space for it, but I'm hoping I can get by using mostly electric with the 2 batteries.


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Victron's stuff looks amazing. Prices are shockingly high though, but you get what you pay for. I am still torn between AGM and Lithium. Part of me thinks just go with AGM for 4-5 years and then 5 years down the road lithium batteries will be much more common place and hopefully a lot cheaper. But the 50% max recommended depletion for AGM's vs the 80% rate for Lithium ion is hard to accept. Weight savings are huge with lithium ion. I think you'll probably want that 3rd battery for sure.

 

[campo]

Hi
When doing the test with the split AC 6000 or 9000 BTU Fijuthu, Mitsubishi or Daikin. First open both the units and reinforce the attachments, electric cables and elements. Look for optimisation off all vibrating parts. Find a solution to rubber mount the things but not too lose. Than think about the carwash. Cover all dangerous elements with extra water coverings.
Consider that dismounting and replace a broken one by a new one must be easy also when slightly different dimensions. A warranty period is something stupid. These small 6000/9000BTU are throwing away units. and cost you more to telephone and get a HVAC technician then the parts value. Any way we live in very expensive labour countries.

Heating with the inverter is Always a problem of the warmth too high.
Even if it can heat with cold environments, you never get a good feeling inside. Cold feet and to warm head.
The Espar Airtronic, fitted low on the floor will do this job perfectly. Other advantage is low power consumption of the Espar. Its heat comes out of the gasoil and not out of your "winterized solar panels"

Grtz Campo
.

 

[S2DM]

Interesting Vid on how kimberly campers does their AC.

http://www.kimberleykruiser.com/lig...ceq_mjB2GNMmqjI5Th6spiFgpRSPuw&_hsmi=26872667

They use a hybrid approach, something the Victron charger/inverters also allow. Hybridizing a weak shore power or generator output with output from your 12V bank.

Not a particularly efficient unit, 380 amps at start up and 83 while running, around a 1000watts. Paired with a really large battery bank and mid range solar set up (500-700 watts). Still manages to run several hours just on batteries alone.

 

[campo]

Hi S2DM !
Thank you for the link with lots of information and testing. I love it !
.
Yes I am impressed by the Kimberley ideas and the test they are doing. Would love to visit these guys and discuss with them. Their approach is exactly what I have been doing. Live testing not only in laboratory and theoretical EER/COP.
.
Of course there is not much real news in the proposed solutions for me. But they do it right !
They reduce the heat transmission from the roof buy using a tropical solar roof “with 9 layers” + flat flexible solar panels. This gives almost the same result as using normal glas solar panels. I have also been working to get some aerodynamic design.
.
They write 2200Watt cooling needed instead of typical 3200 Watt. By night I am using 600 to 1000 Watt for 2 persons by separating the bedroom from the living. Makes me win a lot of battery hours. They go up to 4 or 8 hours on Li batteries with consumption of 50A in 12V system where I have reached autonomy up to 12 hours on GEL batteries with consumption of 13A in 24V
.
As AC they use the Heron 2.2 split AC fom AirCommand. Which is good and made for the application but a little bit loud, big and very old fashioned EER
.
The Victron Multiplus or Quattro that lots of us use since many years does exactly what the Kimberley engineers describes. Merge currents from 2 sources (batteries and grid or genset)
The touch screen monitor is Phillipi from Germany.

The Honda EU10i 1kVA genset is small. I must admit that I use the EU20i. That is because it is difficult to recharge big battery pack when at the same time running other consumers. The portable Honda fuel tank capacity admits only few running hours.
.
The most impressive for me is that this installation is on a caravan and not on a motorhome.

All the best Campo

 

[1aquaholic]

Hi all, I've read through all this and wanted to thank you for the info and research all you have done. I know very little about solar, batteries, and AC but it's that time in my build to get educated and start buying. I have a FG and am building a hard sided pop top (side note S2DM your panel material looks incredible! Can you give me info on where you got it?) of about 100sqf with not a ton of insulation, my plan is to have around 1400 watts of solar and don't want a roof mounted ac unit. Think I'll have room between cab and camper for a split unit and have good compartment space. What would be your suggestions with that limited info be on a AC unit? Can any one give me a quick plus and minus of lithium batteries? Also are there any new flat solar panels worth looking at?

Thanks again
j

 

[S2DM]

Hi all, I've read through all this and wanted to thank you for the info and research all you have done. I know very little about solar, batteries, and AC but it's that time in my build to get educated and start buying. I have a FG and am building a hard sided pop top (side note S2DM your panel material looks incredible! Can you give me info on where you got it?) of about 100sqf with not a ton of insulation, my plan is to have around 1400 watts of solar and don't want a roof mounted ac unit. Think I'll have room between cab and camper for a split unit and have good compartment space. What would be your suggestions with that limited info be on a AC unit? Can any one give me a quick plus and minus of lithium batteries? Also are there any new flat solar panels worth looking at?

Thanks again
j

Couple thoughts.

1) I think Lithiums are clear winners if you are planning AC, only downside is cost and relatively new technology. That said, the marine industry is already moving quickly to Lithium, so I don't think its bleeding edge anymore. Ability to deeply discharge as well as vastly improved discharge efficiency with higher loads like an AC (peukert effect), really error in favor of lithium. Good comparison here.

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/

2) Split Unit Location

Keep in mind a mini split needs a good source of cool air, and no hindrance to discharging its hot air to operate at full efficiency. We moved our potential mini split location several times until we found a spot that let it easily blow off its hot air. So avoid tight placement if you can and have nothing in front of the fan. Also keep in mind mini splits arent made for this. So, consider it something that may need to have parts replaced more frequently than some other options. Mine also came with many parts somewhat loose. I am planning on rebuilding it prior to install to make sure everything is stout and protected.

3) Daikin, Mitsubishi and Fujitsu all make high EER mini split systems. I chose the Daikin, but I don't think its a clear winner. They were all pretty close, and I had an in with a Daikin dealer.

4) If you are going Mono, LG makes some of the toughest, most efficient panels. We got 4 315 watt LG Mono X Neons. A few others make very good panels as well, but LG seemed to be the easiest to get and the best combo of features (some of the other big ones don't sell in small batches. Civic Solar is a great site for ordering panels. Contact a sales rep, they can get almost anything even if its not on their website.

5) I would contact Victorian on the forums. Their website is totalcomposites.com
I like my panels quite a bit, but they are nearly impossible to get ahold of right now and not very cost effective for small batch purchases. The panels from total composites also have an awesome interlocking panel system that should result in a really strong build.

 

[IdaSHO]

With regards to lithiums, don't forget about cold temp problems.

 

[campo]

Hi all, I've read through all this and wanted to thank you for the info and research all you have done. I know very little about solar, batteries, and AC but it's that time in my build to get educated and start buying. I have a FG and am building a hard sided pop top (side note S2DM your panel material looks incredible! Can you give me info on where you got it?) of about 100sqf with not a ton of insulation, my plan is to have around 1400 watts of solar and don't want a roof mounted ac unit. Think I'll have room between cab and camper for a split unit and have good compartment space. What would be your suggestions with that limited info be on a AC unit? Can any one give me a quick plus and minus of lithium batteries? Also are there any new flat solar panels worth looking at?

Thanks again
j

Hi J
Really flat solars are double expensive, more breakable and give +/- the same electricity but ... are flat so more aerodynamic
.
Lithium batteries are 3 to 4 times more expensive when it comes on purchase. Their cost per cycle at end of life is lower with 20 to 50%.
You win lots of weight and space for a same amount of energy.
Lithium without Y (LiFePO4 or LiFeYPO4) temperature field is problematic in winter and also on very hot climate zones. You need security BMS Battery Management System with over and under voltage protections as well as temperature control.
.
If you go off road you can forget about domestic AC systems with good EER but lots of fragile plastic parts. Whats the space hou have between cab and camper (picture?)
.
Keep save Campo

 

[1aquaholic]

S2DM thanks for all the info! I read the Lithium article, great read and if I can pony up the money I'll definitely do it. Hmmm The split A/C may be a problem, think I'm only going to have 6 inches or so between cab and box. I met the guy from total composites, really nice stuff but a little out of my price range and wrong thickness. Bummer about your stuff, would still be interested in talking to them. Looks amazing!!

j