Bella, we have very similar trucks! ccsb 7.3 6spd, mines grey though. what gears are you using for the 37" tires? hows the power/mileage with them? you've pretty much got the setup i'm after, the 4" lift is in the garage and i'll be ordering my tires very soon, i'm hoping they balance for you as thats the route i'm wanting to take.
HMMWV double beadlocks wheels on a Ford Superduty
- Thread starter Bella PSD
- Start date
I apologize for jacking this thread at this point, but I think since the main concern most people have regarding running H1s are the balance issue and cost/availability of 16.5" tires.
Typically, your inserts won't be too wide, they are typically too narrow. If they are too wide you either have to over-torque the nuts in order to close the rim halves or you can't even air it up because it won't close. Either way, the insert can't be off-center if it's too wide. Keep in mind that the stock 1 piece rubber inserts are designed for MT/Rs on 12 or 24 bolts, so they should be the correct width. However, they can only be properly installed on the wheel in a particular direction. You'll actually see it cast into the rubber insert: "INNER" and "OUTER." It's pretty hard to put it on wrong, but it can be done.
In my experience, 12oz+ has been needed to balance these with Airsoft BB's or whatever, so your original attempt may have just needed more material. I'm not sure you need to go through pulling them all apart, but maybe tearing one down to inspect would be worthwhile. While you have that one apart I'd highly recommend you take it up to your local tire shop and see if they can throw in on the balance machine without any tire/insert and see how true it is. I don't want to doubt your welding abilities, but it's pretty hard to weld in a new center and make it balanced even if you're a professional. Be a good way to tell where the problem starts.
Typically, your inserts won't be too wide, they are typically too narrow. If they are too wide you either have to over-torque the nuts in order to close the rim halves or you can't even air it up because it won't close. Either way, the insert can't be off-center if it's too wide. Keep in mind that the stock 1 piece rubber inserts are designed for MT/Rs on 12 or 24 bolts, so they should be the correct width. However, they can only be properly installed on the wheel in a particular direction. You'll actually see it cast into the rubber insert: "INNER" and "OUTER." It's pretty hard to put it on wrong, but it can be done.
In my experience, 12oz+ has been needed to balance these with Airsoft BB's or whatever, so your original attempt may have just needed more material. I'm not sure you need to go through pulling them all apart, but maybe tearing one down to inspect would be worthwhile. While you have that one apart I'd highly recommend you take it up to your local tire shop and see if they can throw in on the balance machine without any tire/insert and see how true it is. I don't want to doubt your welding abilities, but it's pretty hard to weld in a new center and make it balanced even if you're a professional. Be a good way to tell where the problem starts.
daddyusmaximus
Explorer
Cool ain't it... same here CCSB 7.3, mines black though.
Thread was a good read. Spending money on air lockers now, but when it comes time for new tires, I'm thinking of going with the Hutchinson wheels. I absolutely love my Toyo Open Country MTs, and they make one to fit the 17" Hutchinsons. Great ride on the road, great traction in the dirt, E load range, balanced very well.
i've seen your truck here on the portal, maybe some day i'll post mine. are you running the black mamba 7.3? where in the army did you retire from? i'm at ft. campbell.
Back on topic.....do you have a link to those tires w/ price? are you thinking their aluminum wheels or their military wheels?
another question, do the hmmwv's usually have the runflats or are they using the hutchison beadlock inners? I don't ever recall having a balancing issue with the hmmwv....are the hutchison beadlocks for the hmmwv with CTIS?
Back on topic.....do you have a link to those tires w/ price? are you thinking their aluminum wheels or their military wheels?
another question, do the hmmwv's usually have the runflats or are they using the hutchison beadlock inners? I don't ever recall having a balancing issue with the hmmwv....are the hutchison beadlocks for the hmmwv with CTIS?
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daddyusmaximus
Explorer
Can't say much about the H1 wheels, but what I've read. My Army experience is limited with hummers and says if they are shaking or flat... they go to maint. Only ones I've ever messed with were the ones with the two piece run-flat. I've had much more time driving the bigger trucks... I've had to break down many of those on my own. I drive a Ford, so they would need to be re-centered, I don't like the bead on the 16.5, and there is all those shaking reports. I just figure to go with the Hutchinsons, should be less trouble, if more expensive.
If I did it right... they are here.
http://www.rockmonsterwheels.com/products.php?product=fordtrucks
I got good tires now, so I have some time to save up if I decide to go that route. I really want to. I just love the Toyos both on and off road. Got my tires at 4 Wheel Parts in Indianapolis. They were like $350 each, but worth it to be able to wheel with a 9,000# truck. Sucks to want expensive tires and wheels... but I like to go off road. I'd rather wheel on Uncle Sam's dime, but I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna get THIS truck blown out from under me... unless things get way worse.
BTW, retired out of Knox
If I did it right... they are here.
http://www.rockmonsterwheels.com/products.php?product=fordtrucks
I got good tires now, so I have some time to save up if I decide to go that route. I really want to. I just love the Toyos both on and off road. Got my tires at 4 Wheel Parts in Indianapolis. They were like $350 each, but worth it to be able to wheel with a 9,000# truck. Sucks to want expensive tires and wheels... but I like to go off road. I'd rather wheel on Uncle Sam's dime, but I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna get THIS truck blown out from under me... unless things get way worse.
BTW, retired out of Knox
The CTIS system can operate on the stock H1s with most, if not all, of the stock runflats. I drove the HMMWV for the Marine Corps for many years and never could notice tire vibration with everything else vibrating under me. Once you got them up to speed, you just stuck with it and they eventually leveled out after you played with the speed a bit.
I've run the H1s without removing the runflats or turning them down and they drove pretty well IMO. I've recommend to some of the hardcore guy to keep the runflats full size instead of cutting them down in order to add additional weight at the tire, instead of running heavy shot or water.
I completely agree that running the Hutchinson Rock Monsters is the best option available! They are pricey, but they will balance and are a very well designed product. Another option would be to contact Stazworks or even ship your aluminum wheels and have them converted to beadlocks.
I've run the H1s without removing the runflats or turning them down and they drove pretty well IMO. I've recommend to some of the hardcore guy to keep the runflats full size instead of cutting them down in order to add additional weight at the tire, instead of running heavy shot or water.
I completely agree that running the Hutchinson Rock Monsters is the best option available! They are pricey, but they will balance and are a very well designed product. Another option would be to contact Stazworks or even ship your aluminum wheels and have them converted to beadlocks.
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did you have to get new centers for a different bolt pattern? what kind of inserts for the beadlocks do you have?
nm, looking at your war wag build you are using STOCK wheels......
chaos616
Adventurer
I run the BFG baja 37x12.5x16.5 tire on paired 24 bolt H1 stock rims. I didn't recenter the rims for a couple reasons (not cost).
I found just a few issues,
1 grease sucks, these tires and rims balance really well if you run beads (ceramic) of your choice but you ahve to not only scrap out the grease but wash all the tires out with scrub pads and dawn...its awesome, but the end result is very good. I am running a set with all the grease in and no balancing anything, 3 of the tires are fine, 1 was real bad.
2 The only other problem with this set up is that each tire and rim weights about 170 lbs. Whatever right? No, its freakin heavy, and if you don't have a 10000000000 ft. lb torque diesel, then you will notice. I have a 6.0 gasser and it notices. You also notice it with the unsprung weight, it adds a lot, get good shocks. I run 2.5 RR Fox coilover shocks on each corner, i could use easily another set of 2.5's to control these monsters. But i also do higher speed desert driving a lot, slow its awesome.
The tires i run are the E rated ones, heavier than the D, but they hold up pretty good. I wore a set almost completely out, and even had 1 of the worn out ones completely blow up on my (like blown up shredded out of the tread, but it was after it started to bulge, i pulled it off and it blew up sitting on the ground.
For the rims i run completely stock and run wheel spacers from wheeladapter.com. Fred Goeske owns the company and although i didn't talk to him when purchasing, they wouldn't even sell me a set until they had all the CB and pattern information correct and made sure the sizes were within safe limits. I know people hate spacers, but i have had really good luck with them. They weight in each at about the weight of a VW beetle, but so far have taken tons of abuse. I have mine cranked down to 120 ft lbs. for each stud (8 studs) on my 2007 gmc sierra SAS 14 bolt truck. I can tell you i have gotten air on the truck and when a 9000 lbs. truck comes down it hits hard, zero issues with the spacers.
the rims are stock because i didn't want to deal with issues of recenter and or bad welds. They hold up fine, although the 24 bolts are a pain in the but to put together, unless your arms are the size of a keg. Power tools help the process but you still need to torque them down. I torque them to 110 ft. lbs. which is higher than normal, but since the truck weights so much i wanted some security. Make sure you anti sieze the bolts though, otherwise your going to have stripped bolts...seriously.
Overall these are an awesome option for heavy vehicles looking for low air pressure off road, they are tough and fairly simple.
Pictures!!!!:
Hopefully that helps some who are looking at this option.
I found just a few issues,
1 grease sucks, these tires and rims balance really well if you run beads (ceramic) of your choice but you ahve to not only scrap out the grease but wash all the tires out with scrub pads and dawn...its awesome, but the end result is very good. I am running a set with all the grease in and no balancing anything, 3 of the tires are fine, 1 was real bad.
2 The only other problem with this set up is that each tire and rim weights about 170 lbs. Whatever right? No, its freakin heavy, and if you don't have a 10000000000 ft. lb torque diesel, then you will notice. I have a 6.0 gasser and it notices. You also notice it with the unsprung weight, it adds a lot, get good shocks. I run 2.5 RR Fox coilover shocks on each corner, i could use easily another set of 2.5's to control these monsters. But i also do higher speed desert driving a lot, slow its awesome.
The tires i run are the E rated ones, heavier than the D, but they hold up pretty good. I wore a set almost completely out, and even had 1 of the worn out ones completely blow up on my (like blown up shredded out of the tread, but it was after it started to bulge, i pulled it off and it blew up sitting on the ground.
For the rims i run completely stock and run wheel spacers from wheeladapter.com. Fred Goeske owns the company and although i didn't talk to him when purchasing, they wouldn't even sell me a set until they had all the CB and pattern information correct and made sure the sizes were within safe limits. I know people hate spacers, but i have had really good luck with them. They weight in each at about the weight of a VW beetle, but so far have taken tons of abuse. I have mine cranked down to 120 ft lbs. for each stud (8 studs) on my 2007 gmc sierra SAS 14 bolt truck. I can tell you i have gotten air on the truck and when a 9000 lbs. truck comes down it hits hard, zero issues with the spacers.
the rims are stock because i didn't want to deal with issues of recenter and or bad welds. They hold up fine, although the 24 bolts are a pain in the but to put together, unless your arms are the size of a keg. Power tools help the process but you still need to torque them down. I torque them to 110 ft. lbs. which is higher than normal, but since the truck weights so much i wanted some security. Make sure you anti sieze the bolts though, otherwise your going to have stripped bolts...seriously.
Overall these are an awesome option for heavy vehicles looking for low air pressure off road, they are tough and fairly simple.
Pictures!!!!:
Hopefully that helps some who are looking at this option.
Mundo4x4Casa
West slope, N. Ser. Nev.
Chaos, and the rest,
I too have been toying with HumVee wheels and tires but not for the same reasons that you have been. This is the only thread with actual knowledge (not hearsay) about the ins and outs of 8x6.5" lug center deadlock wheels that I could find anywhere on the internet. Chaos' rig comes the closest to my rig, but I'm hauling a LOT more weight on the rear axle; up to and sometimes over 7000 pounds. I've had some crushed rock loads ring over the rear axle that were over 5000 pounds with no deleterious effect in either going or stopping.
1st, It's a 2001.5 Dodge 2500 4X4 CTD HO NV5600 NV241HD (the one with the wide chain for snow plow work and to abate shock loading)
Front axle: Dana 60 housing, D70 outers and selectable hubs, big bearing, 35 splines all the way across, unit bearing delete, axle disconnect delete, Detroit True Trac gear driven torque biasing limited slip, 3" lift pucks, frame/steering box stiffener, Gen4 track bar, Gen4 tie rod, drag link, and new anti sway bar parts, 6" lift 4 links on a 3" lift locating the front axle 1-1/2" forward of stock location, stock Dodge wheels with 6-1/4" back spacing (as measured to edge of rim, with Mickey Thompson 305x75R16 Mud tires, measured diameter 33.1", 3750 E load rating. Above the front suspension sits a Warn 15K pound winch and a lightweight fabbed up bovine deflector.
Rear axle: Dana 80, true 35 spline (the auto trans/CTD trucks of that year had 31 spine Dana 80's), Power Lok limited slip (with cone shaped wet clutches under high preload), Mickey Thompson 12" wide x 16" super single wheels with at 3600 pound rating, Mickey Thompson 375 x 55 R16 super single tires (16" across) with at 3750 E load rating. Above the axle are 8 leaves on each side: 4 stock main leaves; 3 upper secondary or overload leaves; one helper spring down in the pack which give a better ride when empty. Not that there is anything resembling a car-like ride with 8 leaves per side.
This is all set up for my little hard side Lance Lite 165-s truck camper which we use off-road a lot. Loaded up, the camper adds 2700 pounds directly over the rear axle, hence the need for wider tires and all those springs to support the load, off-road. The loaded rig sits level with the camper on.
I really like the quiet super single wheels/tires for this application and would do it again in a minute except that the tire is no longer being made. The closest thing to a super single (non-military) is a 16"x 14.50 Mud Grappler tire that I"ve had before, but they are SO noisy. Now, why would I want to stick to a 16" wheel/tire? Floatation. I like to run my 10,400 pound white brick on the dunes at low pressure, and have successfully done that for a decade or more. I've had 14, 4WD's over the past 50 years and am used to running at low pressure on sand or deep power snow.
My other predicament is that I never have had a non-headlock tire come off the rim on any of my rigs, over 10's of thousands of low pressure (down to 5 pounds) sandy, rocky, snowy miles so I don't even know why I would need deadlocks except for 'the look' which I'm not interested in. Plus the 16.5" does not have a good non-headlock reputation.
My 15.50's are wearing out and I am in a quandary as what to do. I have been talking to the folks at Stockton Wheel (they've been in business a while) and they can custom make just about any steel wheel you want. What I want is a 16" front wheel; 10" wide; 6.25" backspacing with their flat, 1/2" plate center (to stay out of the way of the tie rod and the disc brake parts). The woe is that they are pretty heavy. This would solve the Dodge problem of rubbing on the back of the front fender well, which I've already abated with the forward location of the axle. The Gen2 era flat top front fender opening did not allow for much clearance in the way of scrub radius, especially at the rear of the opening and wide wheels with a 4.5" backspacing would not allow full steering lock to lock. I have peeled away some of the sheet metal at the front of the front fenders to give it that, "1942 Studebaker 6X6" look. UP to 100K of those went to Russia.
For the rear, since I want to run 4 of the same tires now, the same 'Power Wagon' stockton wheel for the rear except with a 4.5" back spacing and an 11" wide wheel would push the center of the tire out 2.5" farther, which is what I see a lot of off-road RV mfgrs doing now.
I tried to find a 1" spacer that I could use with a stock 12bolt HMV wheel for the front but could find none. As for the HMV rear, I would have to widen the wheel even farther to get the wide platform I'm used to.
There is a plan associated with all this build up. We live in snow country and full lockers like ARB and Detroit are just too iffy on ice. When the time is right we're planning on doing a 16 week; around the lower 48; clockwise; camper tour of the boundary states, leaving on September 1st and arriving back on the west slope northern Sierra Nevada by New Years Day. We'll take in the 'leaf-peeper' season of the northeast; and work our way down the east coast camping ON as many beaches as we can and are open to us. Assatigue anyone? Once a week we'll get a high bucks hotel but mostly campgrounds and stealth camping in cities along the way.
So, a few pics to see where I'm at. Feel free to critique my thoughts and give my your insight.
jefe
a comparo of True tracs for my HP D30 XJ and the Dodge 2500 35 spline D60 front axle:
Overview in Death Valley;
The hump in Goler Wash: This is the obstacle that convinced me to add a front LSD.
305X 16 front tires with Dana 70 free wheeling hub stickout. Tires too wide for stock wheel.
35 spline front outer stub shafts:
8 leaves; those black blocks on the ends are Stable Loads meant to allow the secondaries come into play sooner:
On the dunes with my 14.50's at low pressure (20 pounds). Don't ask what the hell I'm doing pulling a fully inflated jeep trailer along.
I too have been toying with HumVee wheels and tires but not for the same reasons that you have been. This is the only thread with actual knowledge (not hearsay) about the ins and outs of 8x6.5" lug center deadlock wheels that I could find anywhere on the internet. Chaos' rig comes the closest to my rig, but I'm hauling a LOT more weight on the rear axle; up to and sometimes over 7000 pounds. I've had some crushed rock loads ring over the rear axle that were over 5000 pounds with no deleterious effect in either going or stopping.
1st, It's a 2001.5 Dodge 2500 4X4 CTD HO NV5600 NV241HD (the one with the wide chain for snow plow work and to abate shock loading)
Front axle: Dana 60 housing, D70 outers and selectable hubs, big bearing, 35 splines all the way across, unit bearing delete, axle disconnect delete, Detroit True Trac gear driven torque biasing limited slip, 3" lift pucks, frame/steering box stiffener, Gen4 track bar, Gen4 tie rod, drag link, and new anti sway bar parts, 6" lift 4 links on a 3" lift locating the front axle 1-1/2" forward of stock location, stock Dodge wheels with 6-1/4" back spacing (as measured to edge of rim, with Mickey Thompson 305x75R16 Mud tires, measured diameter 33.1", 3750 E load rating. Above the front suspension sits a Warn 15K pound winch and a lightweight fabbed up bovine deflector.
Rear axle: Dana 80, true 35 spline (the auto trans/CTD trucks of that year had 31 spine Dana 80's), Power Lok limited slip (with cone shaped wet clutches under high preload), Mickey Thompson 12" wide x 16" super single wheels with at 3600 pound rating, Mickey Thompson 375 x 55 R16 super single tires (16" across) with at 3750 E load rating. Above the axle are 8 leaves on each side: 4 stock main leaves; 3 upper secondary or overload leaves; one helper spring down in the pack which give a better ride when empty. Not that there is anything resembling a car-like ride with 8 leaves per side.
This is all set up for my little hard side Lance Lite 165-s truck camper which we use off-road a lot. Loaded up, the camper adds 2700 pounds directly over the rear axle, hence the need for wider tires and all those springs to support the load, off-road. The loaded rig sits level with the camper on.
I really like the quiet super single wheels/tires for this application and would do it again in a minute except that the tire is no longer being made. The closest thing to a super single (non-military) is a 16"x 14.50 Mud Grappler tire that I"ve had before, but they are SO noisy. Now, why would I want to stick to a 16" wheel/tire? Floatation. I like to run my 10,400 pound white brick on the dunes at low pressure, and have successfully done that for a decade or more. I've had 14, 4WD's over the past 50 years and am used to running at low pressure on sand or deep power snow.
My other predicament is that I never have had a non-headlock tire come off the rim on any of my rigs, over 10's of thousands of low pressure (down to 5 pounds) sandy, rocky, snowy miles so I don't even know why I would need deadlocks except for 'the look' which I'm not interested in. Plus the 16.5" does not have a good non-headlock reputation.
My 15.50's are wearing out and I am in a quandary as what to do. I have been talking to the folks at Stockton Wheel (they've been in business a while) and they can custom make just about any steel wheel you want. What I want is a 16" front wheel; 10" wide; 6.25" backspacing with their flat, 1/2" plate center (to stay out of the way of the tie rod and the disc brake parts). The woe is that they are pretty heavy. This would solve the Dodge problem of rubbing on the back of the front fender well, which I've already abated with the forward location of the axle. The Gen2 era flat top front fender opening did not allow for much clearance in the way of scrub radius, especially at the rear of the opening and wide wheels with a 4.5" backspacing would not allow full steering lock to lock. I have peeled away some of the sheet metal at the front of the front fenders to give it that, "1942 Studebaker 6X6" look. UP to 100K of those went to Russia.
For the rear, since I want to run 4 of the same tires now, the same 'Power Wagon' stockton wheel for the rear except with a 4.5" back spacing and an 11" wide wheel would push the center of the tire out 2.5" farther, which is what I see a lot of off-road RV mfgrs doing now.
I tried to find a 1" spacer that I could use with a stock 12bolt HMV wheel for the front but could find none. As for the HMV rear, I would have to widen the wheel even farther to get the wide platform I'm used to.
There is a plan associated with all this build up. We live in snow country and full lockers like ARB and Detroit are just too iffy on ice. When the time is right we're planning on doing a 16 week; around the lower 48; clockwise; camper tour of the boundary states, leaving on September 1st and arriving back on the west slope northern Sierra Nevada by New Years Day. We'll take in the 'leaf-peeper' season of the northeast; and work our way down the east coast camping ON as many beaches as we can and are open to us. Assatigue anyone? Once a week we'll get a high bucks hotel but mostly campgrounds and stealth camping in cities along the way.
So, a few pics to see where I'm at. Feel free to critique my thoughts and give my your insight.
jefe
a comparo of True tracs for my HP D30 XJ and the Dodge 2500 35 spline D60 front axle:
Overview in Death Valley;
The hump in Goler Wash: This is the obstacle that convinced me to add a front LSD.
305X 16 front tires with Dana 70 free wheeling hub stickout. Tires too wide for stock wheel.
35 spline front outer stub shafts:
8 leaves; those black blocks on the ends are Stable Loads meant to allow the secondaries come into play sooner:
On the dunes with my 14.50's at low pressure (20 pounds). Don't ask what the hell I'm doing pulling a fully inflated jeep trailer along.
chaos616
Adventurer
Hey,
A 7.3 powerstroke will turn them just fine in my opinion. Any diesel will do well, gassers do ok too, just don't plan on running at the drag track, thats all.
Mundo, interesting setup you have, i only have a 14 bolt corp. on the back, which i think i bent, but an 80 would be sweet. I am running a similar setup, not to get into detail too much, but its a 14 bolt front diff, with d70 c's and d60 outers, all 35 spline, and the custom axle shafts are...HUGE. They are a solid 1.4" or whatever the d60 spline size is and neck up front the outter big u joints to the 14 bolt size spline (30 spline).
I got the paired 24 bolt because i believe the load rating per rim is something in the range of 4600 lbs (or is it 7000 lbs? I don't know the spec, someone else may have it though). and the e load bfg tires are rated up to a similar amount of 4650 at 65 psi i believe. Either way, if your putting 8000 lbs on the back of your truck...thats a ton of weight, but it should still be fine. After having accidentially jumped my truck the wheels show no movement or wear or anything of that nature.
Custom 16" rims would be nice though cause of the availability of tire options, its tough with the 16.5, although i like interco tires and if i had more money to dump on them i would consider running a set, maybe up to 39.5" tires. The 37" tires work ok for now and i regeared for that size, it does save money when you can get 5 37" tires for just over 1000 bucks shipped, try buying a 37" brand new tire anywhere for less than 500 bucks a tire.
Cheers,
A 7.3 powerstroke will turn them just fine in my opinion. Any diesel will do well, gassers do ok too, just don't plan on running at the drag track, thats all.
Mundo, interesting setup you have, i only have a 14 bolt corp. on the back, which i think i bent, but an 80 would be sweet. I am running a similar setup, not to get into detail too much, but its a 14 bolt front diff, with d70 c's and d60 outers, all 35 spline, and the custom axle shafts are...HUGE. They are a solid 1.4" or whatever the d60 spline size is and neck up front the outter big u joints to the 14 bolt size spline (30 spline).
I got the paired 24 bolt because i believe the load rating per rim is something in the range of 4600 lbs (or is it 7000 lbs? I don't know the spec, someone else may have it though). and the e load bfg tires are rated up to a similar amount of 4650 at 65 psi i believe. Either way, if your putting 8000 lbs on the back of your truck...thats a ton of weight, but it should still be fine. After having accidentially jumped my truck the wheels show no movement or wear or anything of that nature.
Custom 16" rims would be nice though cause of the availability of tire options, its tough with the 16.5, although i like interco tires and if i had more money to dump on them i would consider running a set, maybe up to 39.5" tires. The 37" tires work ok for now and i regeared for that size, it does save money when you can get 5 37" tires for just over 1000 bucks shipped, try buying a 37" brand new tire anywhere for less than 500 bucks a tire.
Cheers,