How do you rate these roads for difficulty w/hard side TC?

[84FLH]

Hello all. Never owned any camper before and have no idea what constitutes various levels of difficulties on roads/trails; i.e., very difficult with possibility of tipover, difficult with little possibility of tipover, moderate but requires choosing good lines, easy, etc.

What do you rate these trails' difficulty as? Feasibility for newbie?

Note: trail in 2nd vid is heavily washed out/rutted due to rain. Jeep has what looks like 41" tires and in one place at least, I wondered if they were big enough to span a water carved ditch on downside edge of trail.

Note: 3rd vid is further along the trail, compared to 2nd vid. 75 foot drop on left, rock outcropping on right looks like it might hit a hardside.




Perhaps there's already a rating system. If so, where would I find it?

Any thoughts on Northstar's Laredo SC as a suitable TC for roads such as White Rim? Manufacturer's specs say it's 7' wide and about 6-14" shorter than comparable Lance or Northern Lite TC's. Also lighter than Lance and NL. May be a good first time TC for novice. What say ye?

Thank you.

 

[Mickey Bitsko]

If you can afford either one would be fine on the right truck.
I'd rate the trail a 3 out of 5 with camper. Truck without the camper, the
Trail is just that..a trail.

 

[84FLH]

Thanks, Mickey.

I saw that the jeep did fine going low and slow. I'd feel somewhat confident on this trail going low and slow with a Jeep that had sufficient ground clearance. Not so much (at all) with a hardside, unless I had plenty of experience and the truck had the right suspension and ground clearance.

Would stock 4wd F250/350 (late 90's [love the OBS] to mid 2000's) and Dodge 2500/3500 (early-mid 2000s) have enough clearance, or would bigger tires and some stiffer suspension be needed for the above trail?

 

[84FLH]

If you meet me and cannot pull over....you get to back up till I can pass.... I have no room for selfish idiots.

I agree with the center of gravity statement. Thanks for pointing it out. Vids show hardsides really do tip/sway/lean more than popups. Much to consider there.

But everyone who meets you has to pull over or back up till you can pass? You never have to back up or pull over for the other guy? That would seem to raise the question of who the selfish idiot one is.

Speaking of idiots. Help me out here. Are you calling me an idiot for asking what roads are and aren't TC worthy? Are you assuming I'd be inconsiderate, ignorant, or stupid enough to take an obviously unsuitable vehicle on the back roads? Just trying to understand and not misunderstand your point among the strong sentiments you posted.

All those vids were of White Rim. First vid was taken by Mellow Mike of Truck Camper Adventure. With years of TC experience he knew what he was doing.

While I fully agree there's such a thing as trail courtesy, White Rim is BLM land, not private property. If a guy's on public property in a suitably sized TC (not overtly too big to become a problem for other trail riders), what right do you have to demand he accommodates you, based on your disapproval of his rig?

How is he being selfish for having a TC, so long as it's reasonably sized for the trail, but your telling him to back up isn't being selfish? I'm just not seeing the abundance of facts to support your claim he's the selfish one.

Between the last two vids there was one camper van and at least one TC, both parked in campgrounds. Did they have a right to be there, or not?

How are you going to enforce your demand the other guy "backs up till you can pass"? Are you an authorized BLM officer? Remember, things look a lot different when you're face to face with the other guy. And while it sometimes doesn't matter, sometimes size really does matter.

Thanks for the perspective, though. I'll keep it in my file of things and people to watch for in the places I'll be going for peace and quiet.

 

[andy_b]

Thanks, Mickey.

I saw that the jeep did fine going low and slow. I'd feel somewhat confident on this trail going low and slow with a Jeep that had sufficient ground clearance. Not so much (at all) with a hardside, unless I had plenty of experience and the truck had the right suspension and ground clearance.

Would stock 4wd F250/350 (late 90's [love the OBS] to mid 2000's) and Dodge 2500/3500 (early-mid 2000s) have enough clearance, or would bigger tires and some stiffer suspension be needed for the above trail?

Maybe you should just drive it and see before you even get a truck and camper. You could easily rent a Jeep and give it a go. White Rim isn't particularly tough in a 2 door Jeep. Most trail systems have rating schemas but they're: 1) subjective and 2) scaled relative to that specific trail area. There are no objective ratings and things that were tough in one setup and driver combo can be easy in another.

@billiebob makes the most important point - don't be "that guy." Most trails don't need tons of ground clearance (since you keep mentioning that specific spec). The greatest limitation for truck campers as you're describing them is their overall length - this impacts their ability to back up, make switchbacks, etc. Combine that with tall campers, overhanging rocks or trees that seem to go opposite the camber of the trail, and you, a novice driver with the more truck than they can handle on a trail and now you're "that guy."

Finally, I get the appeal of vehicles of a certain era (my own truck is a '00 7.3 Super Duty) but I think you need to move past that. Those old trucks have really limited payloads, they're loud, and they're slow. You've mentioned you're in no rush but that you're also wanting to pass people easily - an OBS w/ a stock 7.3 IDI...won't. Modern trucks are coming off the lots with 1000lb/ft of torque and SUVs today are faster than sport cars from the OBS era. In the Mountain West where all these trails you're highlighting are have 80+mph speed limits and average 3000-5000k elevation. You're going to get smoked on I-70 just getting to the trailhead. You can't overestimate how fatiguing an old IDI or Cummins would be at full tilt for 6-12 hours.

 

[andy_b]

So, everyone who meets you has to pull over, but you never have to pull over? Hmmm. That raises the question of who's really the selfish idiot.

Unless you're calling me an idiot for asking what roads are and aren't TC worthy. And you're assuming I'd be inconsiderate, ignorant, or stupid enough to take an obviously unsuitable vehicle on the back roads. Is that what you're implying?

All those vids were of White Rim. First vid was taken by Mellow Mike of Truck Camper Adventure. With years of TC experience he knew what he was doing.

While I agree there's such a thing as trail courtesy, White Rim is BLM land, not private property. If a guy's on public property in a properly sized TC (not overtly too big to become a problem for other trail riders), what right do you have to demand he accommodates you, based on your disapproval of his rig?

How is he being selfish for having a TC, so long as it's reasonably sized (e.g. for the trail) but your telling him to back up isn't being selfish?

Between the last two vids there was one camper van and at least one TC, both parked in campgrounds. You're saying they had no right to be there? But you have a right to be there because you're not in a TC?

How are you going to enforce your demand the other guy "backs up till you can pass"? Are you an authorized BLM officer? Remember, things look a lot different when you're face to face with the other guy. And while it sometimes really doesn't matter, sometimes size really does matter.

Thanks for the perspective, though. I'll keep it in my file of things and people to watch for.

LOL, nvm, you are "that guy."

Edit: To be clear, there is nothing wrong with being a novice. Everyone was there at some point. The problem is when you ask questions and then get defensive when you don't like the answer. The advice here is worth what you paid but you should chill out until you can at least tell the difference between 37s and 41s lol.

 

[Mickey Bitsko]

I'm pretty sure the law regarding off road/ trail courtesy is
The rig traveling uphill has the right of way.
I KNOW it is in NM, CO and CA., probably nation wide.
Just saying..

 

[84FLH]

Look if you are too selfish to drop the camper....

And there's the problem. You've assumed I'm "selfish". Called me "selfish". Called me an "idiot". All because I asked questions. As a noob. Topping it off, someone else calls me "defensive" because I don't like being called selfish by strangers.

I asked the questions so I'd know what to do and not do. Some apparently have assumed I'll do what shouldn't be done, and not do what should be done. Then they berated me for what they think I'm thinking, and what they think I'll do.

The only thing missing here tonight is Nurse Ratchet!

 

[84FLH]

I'm pretty sure the law regarding off road/ trail courtesy is
The rig traveling uphill has the right of way.
I KNOW it is in NM, CO and CA., probably nation wide.
Just saying..

Thanks, Mickey.

So if that's true, what will billiebob do if he's traveling downhill and the 'offender' is traveling uphill?

?

 

[84FLH]

LOL, nvm, you are "that guy."

Edit: To be clear, there is nothing wrong with being a novice. Everyone was there at some point. The problem is when you ask questions and then get defensive when you don't like the answer. The advice here is worth what you paid but you should chill out until you can at least tell the difference between 37s and 41s lol.

I didn't get defensive because I didn't like the answer. I got defensive because I got called an idiot. Not just any idiot, mind you; but a selfish idiot. Sort of a double pox on the road.

Oh, and the tires. I was just checking to see if anyone knew they were 37's....

 

[84FLH]

Maybe you should just drive it and see before you even get a truck and camper. You could easily rent a Jeep and give it a go. White Rim isn't particularly tough in a 2 door Jeep. Most trail systems have rating schemas but they're: 1) subjective and 2) scaled relative to that specific trail area. There are no objective ratings and things that were tough in one setup and driver combo can be easy in another.

I'll have a 2021 4Runner for 18 days in Alaska this Aug/Sep. Not quite the American west but Alaska is on my bucket list and time is running out, so now's the time.

@billiebob makes the most important point - don't be "that guy." Most trails don't need tons of ground clearance (since you keep mentioning that specific spec). The greatest limitation for truck campers as you're describing them is their overall length - this impacts their ability to back up, make switchbacks, etc. Combine that with tall campers, overhanging rocks or trees that seem to go opposite the camber of the trail, and you, a novice driver with the more truck than they can handle on a trail and now you're "that guy."

Yes. He's given some great advice. Based on 40 (or 50) years experience. Can't beat that with a stick.

The more vids I'm watching, the more I start to see the limitations of hard side TC's. Before I started watching them, and asking questions here, I had a romanticized, unrealistic vision of where they can (successfully go). Just figured a 4wd truck with big tires and heavier suspension could go anywhere.

But I'm starting to learn that's not the case.

Finally, I get the appeal of vehicles of a certain era (my own truck is a '00 7.3 Super Duty) but I think you need to move past that. Those old trucks have really limited payloads, they're loud, and they're slow. You've mentioned you're in no rush but that you're also wanting to pass people easily - an OBS w/ a stock 7.3 IDI...won't. Modern trucks are coming off the lots with 1000lb/ft of torque and SUVs today are faster than sport cars from the OBS era. In the Mountain West where all these trails you're highlighting are have 80+mph speed limits and average 3000-5000k elevation. You're going to get smoked on I-70 just getting to the trailhead. You can't overestimate how fatiguing an old IDI or Cummins would be at full tilt for 6-12 hours.

Thanks. Needed to hear that. Hard to believe folks routinely drive 80 on the freeway. Someone else said the most important thing was the truck. Has to be reliable and have sufficient payload. Don't wanna get stuck "out there".

Never driven a diesel but did drive a 1954 Job Rated Dodge C1B8 once on a 250 mile round trip. Made it fine but I was beat both ways.

Great info all around, andyb. Thank you.

 

[84FLH]

Look if you are too selfish to drop the camper.... and enjoy the trail.... you'd best be able to backup BUT given 40 years on trails invariably the guys who don't know how to back up are the guys to selfish to drop the camper.... Defending that position just proves the point. We do not need you on theb trail.....

I tow a trailer and I can reverse forever when I meet Suzie Cream Cheese in her Quad Cab....... Point is if you meet Suzie Cream Cheeze can you backup for a mile.

Once off road, in a recreation area, enjoy the area and get rid of the baggage. Sorry if you were offended..... I just got the feeling you were missing the point. Once on a trail, maximize the opportunities, minimize the problems. All these trails are day trips, leave the camper at the trail head and enjoy.

My Dad called this common sense 60 years ago, and I agree.

Why do you need the camper..... ????

Hey billiebob;

Apology certainly accepted. Thank you.

I know a bit (okay, more than a bit) about trail courtesy from hiking most of the AT in New England, some of Vermont's Long Trail. As a former amateur motorcycle road racer (training at Keith Code's California Superbike schools; raced in Long Island, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire...early 1980's...Kawa 650's in school) I understand road manners.

All I was trying to do, still trying to do, is understand/learn what trails one can/can't safely drive a TC on. And then what trails a popup can handle but a hardside can't handle.

I want the camper to....ha-ha....get away from the chaos of civilization and get into the peace and quiet of woods and wilderness. Really. To travel America for months at a time in retirement, looking for the right place to buy. In traveling I want to boondock for weeks at a time in ID, CO, MT, WY, AZ, UT...and eventually AK.

The vids surprised me with how much traffic there was. "This ain't really gettin' away from it all", I was saying to myself as I watched.

You say the trails on the vids are mostly for day trips. Would it be more accurate to say that more drivers are day trip drivers than overnight campers? I mean, there's BLM camping zones out there.

So there's a difference between Jeep/day trails....and roads more suitable for TC's? What makes those differences? Width of trail? How rocky? How steep? How much overhang? I'd not like to drive on the trails in the vids. Not yet anyway, without any experience. Even with experience those trails look like more work than I'd want; at least with a TC. Now if I had a nice Jeep I might be interested in those trails. Maybe.

Until recently I always thought TC's with 4wd and big tires could go just about anywhere. I'm learning that's not true. Center of gravity is everything, as you alluded.

So I'm just trying to get an idea of the limitations and capabilities of hardside (and popup) TC's. I'm not in any way saying "Here's the trails I'll be driving my brand new, big tired, overweight truck camper on"

Thanks again for your inputs. Valuable insights from experience.

PS: I'm okay backing up with mirrors...in a parking lot. Would take me until night time to back up on the trails in the vids. As of this time I'd have to ask the other guy to do it for me while I drove his rig down.

 

[andy_b]

I didn't get defensive because I didn't like the answer. I got defensive because I got called an idiot. Not just any idiot, mind you; but a selfish idiot. Sort of a double pox on the road.

Oh, and the tires. I was just checking to see if anyone knew they were 37's....

I think you're asking great questions and I agree, being accused of being selfish and an idiot is not ideal. I mentioned the tires because some people know and some people don't just by looking at them; whether you are the former or latter should have some influence on how respond. FWIW, Milestars max out at 37".

I hear you about romanticized notions, lol. It is tough to have to change some of those around.

Regarding limitations and capabilities, it will always be a compromise based on your mission profile. For a live-aboard camper such as you've described, that means it has to be on a truck that is going to be substantially longer and wider than most trail users. Most of the time, the extra length will actually make many obstacles easier but make other simple maneuvers like switchbacks almost impossible. Likewise, the width can make literally fitting down the trail the hardest part.

A driver's tolerance for mechanical carnage is usually the barometer for what makes a trail "difficult." If you're going to be driving around with your entire house on your back, that should also influence your appetite for destruction and your scale for how difficult a trail may be. Otherwise, there is no set formula to determine what trails you can safely travel on.

Your trip to Alaska (arguably both the American West and East!) will be enlightening and informative. You'll figure out a ton about how you want to travel and what is really important to you on and off the road. Some of our advice will be proven useless, but some of it I bet will stick.

 

[Mickey Bitsko]

84FLH, you're asking all the right questions, but you need to pick your poison so to speak.
Born and raised on the west coast, hunted and fished and camped in all the states on your bucket list. They all have challenging trails and forest service roads for all types of vehicles, there's not ONE truck/camper rig that does it all.
Hardside tc's limitations are, top heavy and tall.
Pop-up camper are more nimble but still fairly wide (some not so much but limiting ) and still require at least a 3/4 ton truck (don't be fooled by their lower cog).
Over my lifetime of traveling the backwoods you want to visit, my suggestion is, search your destinations use Google maps look at the terrain, it's all different but similar as far as fs roads . Seems there's a fine line between fs road a "trail ".
Lastly, you really can't get away from civilization anymore, lots of people are looking to do the same thing.

 

[zb39]

Buy whatever camper and truck you want. then flat tow a JLR behind it. It will go where you want in stock form.
It works for me. I use both campers, but for different trips. Tow the JLR with both. I'm in the big one right now in Myrtle Beach.