How important is GVWR?

[RoyJ]

IOW, when comparing a PW to a 3500, when equipped comparably, they would both be safe with the same load in the same conditions. So is it possible the GVWR on the 3500 should be adjusted *down* if it was taken on the same trails?

And we can further state once you modify a regular 3500 with taller / lower rate springs, or softer / taller profile tires, then it loses its OEM designed GVWR.

That was my point earlier - a lot of us worry about exceeding the GVWR, without realizing the mods that 95% of us do on here negates any rating to begin with.

This is why I said the axle OEM's limit should be the hard limit we all respect. Other than that, just use proper judgement and drive accordingly. I highly doubt Expo Overland's 7000 lbs Tacoma was within its axle ratings! I would've done a LC / Hilux axle swap. But I believe they realized that and made an effort to lighten it on their South America season.

 

[RoyJ]

The Powerwagon GVWR is low due to tires and soft springs. Thats it. I have a friend that went from a 2500 4wd Cummins to a Powerwagon. He was comfortable pulling his 36 Yellowfin with the regular 2500 but the suspension of the PW is just not up to the task and he borrows a work truck when he needs to pull it now.

What gets me is how the post-2014 PW, with the upgraded 50ksi frame, and and larger rear axle (11.5 vs 10.5 AAM), has LOWER payload than a pre-14!?

Ram simply put an artificial GVW limit at 8,510 lbs. With the 2014 curb weight increase (6626 to 7077), they lowered the payload from 1884 to 1433 lbs. Even though every component is stronger.

I highly doubt they used the EXACT same spring rate on the new coils vs old leafs, or else the truck would sit lower empty. My guess is Ram's legal dept was too lazy to get the engineers to re-certify a new GVWR. The other HD Rams all had their GVWRs increased after the frame, axle, and suspension upgrades.

I may get shot for saying this in a Toyota forum - the PW in many ways is the most "overbuilt" truck, more so than the LC (hides...). It's got the same axle and pretty much the same frame as the dually - you can not break that drive train at factory GVW.

 

[Bayou Boy]

I may get shot for saying this in a Toyota forum - the PW in many ways is the most "overbuilt" truck, more so than the LC (hides...). It's got the same axle and pretty much the same frame as the dually - you can not break that drive train at factory GVW.

Until you've actually put a wrench on something on the front end of a new HD Ram you can't understand just how stout everything is. Everything is just massive.

 

[toylandcruiser]

The Powerwagon GVWR is low due to tires and soft springs. Thats it. I have a friend that went from a 2500 4wd Cummins to a Powerwagon. He was comfortable pulling his 36 Yellowfin with the regular 2500 but the suspension of the PW is just not up to the task and he borrows a work truck when he needs to pull it now.

What gets me is how the post-2014 PW, with the upgraded 50ksi frame, and and larger rear axle (11.5 vs 10.5 AAM), has LOWER payload than a pre-14!?

Ram simply put an artificial GVW limit at 8,510 lbs. With the 2014 curb weight increase (6626 to 7077), they lowered the payload from 1884 to 1433 lbs. Even though every component is stronger.

I highly doubt they used the EXACT same spring rate on the new coils vs old leafs, or else the truck would sit lower empty. My guess is Ram's legal dept was too lazy to get the engineers to re-certify a new GVWR. The other HD Rams all had their GVWRs increased after the frame, axle, and suspension upgrades.

I may get shot for saying this in a Toyota forum - the PW in many ways is the most "overbuilt" truck, more so than the LC (hides...). It's got the same axle and pretty much the same frame as the dually - you can not break that drive train at factory GVW.

So you’re comparing a 1/2 ton truck to a 3/4 ton?
A land cruiser compared to another vehicle in the same class is the most overbuilt truck.

 

[Clutch]

I highly doubt Expo Overland's 7000 lbs Tacoma was within its axle ratings! I would've done a LC / Hilux axle swap. But I believe they realized that and made an effort to lighten it on their South America season.

Tacoma and Hilux share the same axles...and suspension components. Frames are different. Spring rates may actually be the same. (not sure)

http://www.exploringoverland.com/ov...2/11/16/forbidden-fruit-the-toyota-hilux.html

 

[JCatt]

Believe it or not my F250 with heavy front bumper, 35” MT, larger aftermarket fuel tank, a bunch of stereo equipment, 6.7 diesel, every option, and a fairly loaded FWC Hawk is well over my GVWR of 10k. I’m still going to add a winch and double swingout rear bumper. It’s not overloaded on the axles or tires. Mine is basically worst case payload scenario with an 3/4 ton. Heavy mods, heavy engine, all options, and 10k gross vs 11,400 with the F350. I’ve had far more weight in it than my 13XX pound Hawk adds. YMMV. It’s 8600 lbs without the camper and 9920 with it, me in the truck, water, propane, but not loaded with gear or any other passengers.

 

[rickc]

There have been similar discussion on other forums. As already noted, the pop-up companies will happily sell Tacos/Colorados/Canyons anything they want to buy regardless of the truck OEM GVWR or other instructions. The Colorado manual clearly states "do not install a truck bed camper or similar equipment" but people do anyhow.

I am watching the impact of my extra equipment very closely to ensure that when loaded-up I don't exceed the GVWR. I'm also careful about load distribution, roof rack load ratings (so few people do) and how things are mounted. There are many " I do it and never have a problem" posts but this doesn't mean it is safe.

Manufacturers may refuse to honour warranties for repair work (I am sure this would be the case with a Colorado fitted with a pop-up) and if you are involved in a serious crash, and it is determined that your truck is grossly over-loaded, then there will likely be legal liability.

 

[RoyJ]

So you’re comparing a 1/2 ton truck to a 3/4 ton?
A land cruiser compared to another vehicle in the same class is the most overbuilt truck.

No I wasn't, I'm comparing their relative "over-builtness".

The PW has a GVWR of 8510 lbs, but uses the frame and drive train from a truck with 14,500 lbs GVWR.

My old LX470 had a GVWR of 6860 lbs. But the same ratio, it should have axles and a frame from a 11,689 lbs mini-Hino. I could be wrong, but that's not the case with the 100 series axles.

 

[RoyJ]

Tacoma and Hilux share the same axles...and suspension components. Frames are different. Spring rates may actually be the same. (not sure)

http://www.exploringoverland.com/ov...2/11/16/forbidden-fruit-the-toyota-hilux.html

Interesting - I wonder how a Hilux gets away with 2000 lbs of payload on a crew cab super short bed?

Is the Taco rear axle that under-rated (a la Power Wagon)?

 

[toylandcruiser]

So you’re comparing a 1/2 ton truck to a 3/4 ton?
A land cruiser compared to another vehicle in the same class is the most overbuilt truck.

No I wasn't, I'm comparing their relative "over-builtness".

The PW has a GVWR of 8510 lbs, but uses the frame and drive train from a truck with 14,500 lbs GVWR.

My old LX470 had a GVWR of 6860 lbs. But the same ratio, it should have axles and a frame from a 11,689 lbs mini-Hino. I could be wrong, but that's not the case with the 100 series axles.

I’d be interested in seeing a link showing the power wagon frame is a 1 ton frame and the rest of the drivetrain other than one axle from a 1 ton truck.

 

[Clutch]

Interesting - I wonder how a Hilux gets away with 2000 lbs of payload on a crew cab super short bed?

Is the Taco rear axle that under-rated (a la Power Wagon)?

I used to think they were completely different, until I read that article. So really can’t go off of axles. The only glaring difference is the frame. Boxed on the Hilux and open on the Tacoma. Of course that will open a whole other can of worms of people arguing over boxed vs. c-channel.

 

[tacollie]

Interesting - I wonder how a Hilux gets away with 2000 lbs of payload on a crew cab super short bed?

Is the Taco rear axle that under-rated (a la Power Wagon)?

Just because a Hilux is rated at 1 ton in AUS doesn't mean it would be in the US. I recall reading somewhere on the forum JKs have a higher payload in Europe than in the US and the Forester is higher in AUS. I wonder if the 4runner or 200 is rated different outside of the US.

 

[Clutch]

Just because a Hilux is rated at 1 ton in AUS doesn't mean it would be in the US. I recall reading somewhere on the forum JKs have a higher payload in Europe than in the US and the Forester is higher in AUS. I wonder if the 4runner or 200 is rated different outside of the US.

It is because they spell “tonne” differently over there. The extra “n” plus an “e” tacked onto the end means you can carry more.

 

[Bayou Boy]

I’d be interested in seeing a link showing the power wagon frame is a 1 ton frame and the rest of the drivetrain other than one axle from a 1 ton truck.

The Power Wagon is a 3/4 ton Ram with soft springs for articulation. Period. It IS an HD Ram. The 2500 and 3500 Ram share the same axles, frame (except for the parts necessary to change from coils to leafs on the rear), and everything else except for the actual springs. This isn't up for debate. There's no links to be shown. The 3500s sit about an inch high than the 2500s due to the actual springs used. Everything else is identical.

Where did you get the idea that a Power Wagon is a 1/2 ton truck because that is patently wrong?

 

[toylandcruiser]

I’d be interested in seeing a link showing the power wagon frame is a 1 ton frame and the rest of the drivetrain other than one axle from a 1 ton truck.

The Power Wagon is a 3/4 ton Ram with soft springs for articulation. Period. It IS an HD Ram. The 2500 and 3500 Ram share the same axles, frame (except for the parts necessary to change from coils to leafs on the rear), and everything else except for the actual springs. This isn't up for debate. There's no links to be shown. The 3500s sit about an inch high than the 2500s due to the actual springs used. Everything else is identical.

Where did you get the idea that a Power Wagon is a 1/2 ton truck because that is patently wrong?

Umm wow I never said it was a 1/2 ton truck . Calm your tits. So the truck isn’t “overbuilt” then. Sounds good