How long does it take a water tank to freeze?

D

Duredel

New member
I'm building a JKU with an Ursa Minor for the PanAm. I'm going to try to be in the right places in the right seasons, but the high Andes get relatively cold no matter the season. Those of you who have had an external water tank- how long has it taken the tank or lines to freeze, especially if the tank is outside the vehicle?

I am going to try to repurpose a Titan Trekker Tank (mounted behind the spare tire) into a water tank, as the area that Dan Grec and others have put exterior water tanks on JKs is already taken by a Long Ranger tank.

Thanks for the input!
 
A

Anti-lander

Member
Depends on temps, wind speed, in shade or sun etc. Anywhere from an hour or 2 bare to a whole day or more if your tank is insulated or heated.
 
O

Ozarker

Well-known member
Wind has no effect on inanimate objects, wind chill is the result of cold air moving over skin which makes a temperature "feel" colder than it really is. It also doesn't matter if it's day or night, being in the sun is a function of temperature (sun heats things) of the container/water surface.

How fast water freezes depends on altitude, temperature and the amount of water to be frozen. I can tell you that at 40 below zero (F), you can spit and it freezes before it hits the ground or you can toss water into the air and ice crystals will hit the ground. You don't need to worry about it until it's 32 degrees (F) or 0 (C), the colder it is the quicker it freezes and the higher you are the quicker it freezes as the air is thinner, less oxygen.

I realize the question was just breaking the ice to talk about your water tank, so how are you going to attach the tank?
 
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1

1000arms

Well-known member
Ozarker said:
Wind has no effect on inanimate objects, ...
Click to expand...
Take your statement, and go fly a kite! ... :cool:

Fan-cooled heatsinks would disagree with your statement. :)

You might want to look at:

"The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F and the wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5°F."

from:

 
C

charlieaarons

Explorer
Ozarker said:
How fast water freezes depends on altitude, temperature and the amount of water to be frozen. I can tell you that at 40 below zero (F), you can spit and it freezes before it hits the ground or you can toss water into the air and ice crystals will hit the ground. You don't need to worry about it until it's 32 degrees (F) or 0 (C), the colder it is the quicker it freezes and the higher you are the quicker it freezes as the air is thinner, less oxygen.
Click to expand...
Suggest you learn a bit about thermodynamics. The lower density of the air does not cause greater cooling. The insulating value of air outside the tank is negligible. At altitude when windy, less dense air will cool the tank less, not more.
The shape of the tank has an effect, minimal surface area being best (spherical). The color of the tank has a significant effect if visible light is hitting it. Insulation (also IR emissivity of paint) also important, and initial temperature of the water also critical.
The lines will freeze very quickly unless insulated very well.
Bottom line: carry water inside heated insulated compartment (camper box) unless you enjoy big problems. You can’t talk your way out of that no matter what you write.
I leave my gray water tank (outside box) open when camping in freezing temps.
 
O

Ozarker

Well-known member
1000arms said:
Take your statement, and go fly a kite! ... :cool:

Fan-cooled heatsinks would disagree with your statement. :)

You might want to look at:

"The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F and the wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5°F."

from:

Click to expand...

Seems like the same thing, it doesn't get any colder. Dissipating hotter air from a surface will allow it to cool quicker or not get much hotter, but inanimate objects don't feel much do they?

Kites are outdated, now play with your drone :)

And, icing on planes is quicker as altitude increases, oh, it's not cold the higher you get, I suppose you think you're closer to the sun!
 
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D

Duredel

New member
Perhaps a better question to ask would be: For those of you who have been to the Andes and have had an external water tank, did it freeze? Did the lines freeze?

I have arctic construction experience, so I'm well aware how quickly water lines, even insulated lines, will freeze at -40. I'm more concerned about if there is enough heat during the day at high altitudes in the Andes to balance out the cold temperatures during the night.
 
C

charlieaarons

Explorer
Haven’t had my vehicle in the Andes but I’ve been there twice. In northern summer 1969 travelled by land from Lima to La Paz, sometimes in open back of 2 ton trucks (colectivos).
The effect of altitude anywhere on the planet is a large diurnal temp variation. So a full 100L tank won’t necessarily freeze even if -5 or even -10C at night; depending on daytime temp. The larger the tank volume (when full) the more important average daily temperature. But lines will quickly freeze.
Look at climate under “geography” for this pretty extreme place, note during dry season (“winter”) diurnal variations can exceed 20C.
en.m.wikipedia.org

La Rinconada, Peru - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
DirtWhiskey

DirtWhiskey

Western Dirt Rat
Insulate it. Real problem is any lines and valves going in or out of the tank. I think it would take eons to freeze a sizeable tank solid.
 
U

UglyViking

Well-known member
@Duredel, I don't have any practical help here, but I do have some potential solutions. As others have said, depending on if you're routing the water inside or not, keeping that connection insulated is an important factor as that water line will freeze way before the container. There may be options for something actively heated, but the best bet would probably be to keep any thin diameter hose within the truck so as to not let it freeze.

As for the tank itself, there are a lot of heating pads that can be slapped on it that should take a relatively low draw I think. Heated tanks are big for 4 season RVs and becoming more common, so probably something on amazon for the cheap.
 
B

broncobowsher

Adventurer
1000arms said:
Take your statement, and go fly a kite! ... :cool:

Fan-cooled heatsinks would disagree with your statement. :)

You might want to look at:

"The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5°F and the wind chill temperature is -31°F, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5°F."

from:

Click to expand...
True, but it will get there faster.
 
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