If only one: Fog Lights or Driving Lights?

RenoRacing

Observer
Appreciate the input from everyone! As of now, I have a 97 XJ that I've upgraded to the Sylvania Silverstars, which were a huge improvement over the stock headlights. Eventually I'm thinking of doing the Autopals H4 conversion and upgrading the wiring harness. The Silverstars have a great high beam that really projects out there pretty far, but doesn't fill very well. Which is part of the reason I'm leaning towards fog lights. These lights will be used only off-road. The typical scenarios when you're trying to return to camp, or find a camp, after dark... Leaving the trailhead when the hike runs later than expected... etc... The speed thing is another convincing argument. It's not often that I do over about 40mph on the dirt "highways", most of my time is spent on the smaller/rougher roads.
In the end, sounds like the fogs are all around a better fit for my needs. I'm going to give the 500's a try, and can always upgrade down the road.
Keep the conversation going, as I'm sure that there are others out there with similar questions. -Great information to be had all over this board!
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
Appreciate the input from everyone! As of now, I have a 97 XJ that I've upgraded to the Sylvania Silverstars,
There's the problem; Sylvania Silverstars are never an "upgrade".

Let's set you on a better path.
Do the H4 and harness conversion and get some Osram bulbs. You'll appreciate the difference immediately.
nice H4 bulb here

In addition to what the article in Overland Journal says this month about blue-tinted bulbs, listen to Daniel Stern:

Daniel Stern said:
Blue and violet are very difficult for the human optical system to process correctly. They are the shortest visible wavelengths and tend to focus in front of our eyes' retinae, rather than upon it. To demonstrate this to yourself, find a dark blue store front sign or something else that's a dark, pure blue against a dark background in the absence of white light—from any appreciable distance, it's almost impossible for your eyes to see the blue lighted object as a sharply defined form;the edges blur significantly. Deep blue runway lights exhibit the same effect; check it out the next time you land at night.

Blue also is a very difficult color of light to look at; it stimulates the reaction we call glare. Within the range of allowable white light, bluer headlamps have been shown to be 46% more glaring than yellower ones for a given intensity of light — see studies here and here.

Now, suppose we want to add a filter to the glass that makes the light look bluer/colder. How does it do that? Well, there's no such thing as a filter that adds light into the beam passing through it; filters can only suppress light, not add it. So if we can't add green-blue-violet light, then the only way to get the light to look colder is to suppress green-blue-violet's opposites, which are red-orange-yellow. If we want the light to look, let's say, 20% colder, we suppress red-orange-yellow by 20%. Looking up above, we see that we've got a total of 750 lumens' worth of red, orange and yellow. So, cutting this by 20% leaves 600 lumens, plus essentially all of the bulb's original green-blue-violet output of 250 lumens, so we've now got a bulb that produces light that looks 20% colder and produces 850 lumens.

850 lumens happens to be the minimum legal output for a 9006. Unless we're craven marketeers who don't care about compliance or performance, we can't produce a bulb that produces only the bare minimum of light, because 50% of production will be 849 lumens or less. So, we have to put in a high-luminance filament to try to counteract some of the filtering losses. BUT we still have to come in under the max-allowable-wattage spec in DOT or ECE regulations.

So, let's say we build our 9006 with a super-duper filament that produces 1200 lumens. That's too much for a 9006, but we're going to take away some of those lumens with our colored filter (blue glass). This 1200-lumen filament produces, let's say, 300 lumens red, 300 lumens orange, 300 lumens yellow, 210 lumens green, 60 lumens blue and 30 lumens violet. Now we put that same blue glass over it, which suppresses red-orange-yellow by 20%. Now we've got 720 lumens' worth of red-orange-yellow after filtration, plus 300 lumens' worth of green-blue-violet. That gives us a 910-lumen bulb, which is enough above the 850-lumen legal "floor" that we can run the bulb and even if some filaments only produce 1150 lumens instead of 1200, we're still legally OK. Of course, we still only have 910 lumens instead of 1000, and our 1200-lumen filament is going to have a significantly shorter life than a 1000-lumen filament, but we've got our colder/bluer light appearance in a legal bulb.
 

alexrex20

Explorer
hilldweller, thanks for those links on the CPF forums. i'm intrigued by the H7680HIR bulbs. i can't seem to carry a retailer for them. anything comparable you can recommend?

also, i'm sure it's been a few months and miles since you've done the yellow tint mod on your "cheap" HIDs. how are you liking them still?
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
hilldweller, thanks for those links on the CPF forums. i'm intrigued by the H7680HIR bulbs. i can't seem to carry a retailer for them. anything comparable you can recommend?

also, i'm sure it's been a few months and miles since you've done the yellow tint mod on your "cheap" HIDs. how are you liking them still?
Ask Scheinwerfermann where to get the HIRs; from all I've heard, they're the bee's knees. Wish they came in a size I could use...
Different size bulbs have different "best in show"; I'm using the Osram Rallye for my H4. Phillips is making +80s that are the best performers in many sizes.

And the yellow tint job is remarkable in foul weather. My drive to work is about 1/3 on narrow hilly winding dirt road with virtually zero traffic; I light those puppies up and fog goes away. Magic.
 

AlexJet

Explorer
well duh. is is legal to drive with them ON? no.

if they're OFF, then it doesn't make a difference.

You can have maximum of 4 headlights ON at the same time on the public road, which means your headlights (1 bulb, if you have 2 bulb headlight then only at Low-Beam).
Auxiliary light needs to be mounted not higher then your headlights and not closer then xxx (don't remember the number of inches) to each other.
If you compliment with both of those rules at the same time - no ticket. Agree that roof lights will always be out of the scope.
 

sargeek

Adventurer
You can have maximum of 4 headlights ON at the same time on the public road, which means your headlights (1 bulb, if you have 2 bulb headlight then only at Low-Beam).
Auxiliary light needs to be mounted not higher then your headlights and not closer then xxx (don't remember the number of inches) to each other.
If you compliment with both of those rules at the same time - no ticket. Agree that roof lights will always be out of the scope.

In addition, the light its self needs to be SAE approved for use "On Road". In general, only fog lights are approved for use with oncoming traffic. The majority of Driving Lights, Pencil Beams and Spot Lights must be turned off with approaching trafffic. Even if you aim the Driving lights way low, the lights produce glare from the bulb its self that will blind drivers.

Their are a few exceptions, Hella made an "auxiliary headlight" that was approved for use with your low beam and did not blind oncoming traffic. I can't find it, so I think it's out of production.

To be legal, auxiliary lights also need to be wired correctly. Fog lights wired to operate with the low beam only, and turn off when the brights come on. Driving Lights/Pencil beams operate only with the brights.

Most states require roof mounted lights to be covered when on the road.
 

xcmountain80

Expedition Leader
Oh driving lights, because fogs don't cut it above 50 on the backroads. Not to mention I use mine to start fires!

PC160027.jpg


A
 

corax

Explorer

I was able to put 4.5" aircraft spot beams into cheap utility light housings - great for backroads, I don't think I'll ever outdrive them & haven't had any problems with the housing or the lights for the 1.5 years I've had them

http://www.ultimateyota.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=5776.0
100_2674.jpg


*edit* good info from the CPF thread you linked (note: the 4509 is 4.5" and the H7680HIR is 5.75")
The 4509 produces 110,000 candela in a beam 12° wide by 6°*high, and has a lifespan of 25 hours. This is ancient, grossly inefficient technology. Remember, the airworthiness approval process for any/every piece of equipment that goes on an airplane is slow and very expensive, so things like landing lights change very slowly. Nowadays, there are much better choices than a 4509 even if we are sticking to the 5¾" round format. The H7680HIR, for example, is a 12.8v 80w sealed beam that produces 275,000 candela in a 6.5° conical beam and has a lifespan of 100 hours. Much more efficient and effective.
 
Last edited:

AlexJet

Explorer
In addition, the light its self needs to be SAE approved for use "On Road". In general, only fog lights are approved for use with oncoming traffic. The majority of Driving Lights, Pencil Beams and Spot Lights must be turned off with approaching trafffic. Even if you aim the Driving lights way low, the lights produce glare from the bulb its self that will blind drivers.

Their are a few exceptions, Hella made an "auxiliary headlight" that was approved for use with your low beam and did not blind oncoming traffic. I can't find it, so I think it's out of production.

To be legal, auxiliary lights also need to be wired correctly. Fog lights wired to operate with the low beam only, and turn off when the brights come on. Driving Lights/Pencil beams operate only with the brights.

Most states require roof mounted lights to be covered when on the road.

Or pulled out fuse out of driver accessibility from his seat.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
188,727
Messages
2,909,565
Members
231,029
Latest member
dterrell
Top