If There Were No Emissions Regs, Would A Six Speed Transmission Still Be "Necessary?"

luthj

Engineer In Residence
That old 302 also makes a lot less power total. A decent bit of power at low RPM is important, but when the engine basically chokes at 3800rpm, its an issue. Of course with a 10 speed trans, a wide power curve is less important. Part of why heavy haulers have so many gears.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
That old 302 also makes a lot less power total. A decent bit of power at low RPM is important, but when the engine basically chokes at 3800rpm, its an issue.

We are talking about a 302 here not a 300... they are not scared to rev lol.

Mustang version peak hp was a 4400rpm so they have some lungs, peak torque for that application was around 300lb-ft at 3100.

The complaints about the 302 in a F-150 was actually similar to the complaints about the car engines in midsize trucks. Too much rev to get any power out of it and gutless down low. But in my little Ranger everything is scaled just about right to work out right.

:ROFLMAO: Just so we're all staying on topic here, did your 85 ranger come with that 302 from the factory or did it roll out with either the carbureted I4 from a Pinto making 118 lb-ft of torque with a curve shaped like a taco shell, or the also from a Pinto carbureted V6 making 150 lb-feet of torque? Like I know the 2GR-FKS in a Tacoma doesn't hit its torque peak till almost 5000 rpm but at 1000 rpm it's already making 30 lbs more torque than a 1985 Ranger's best effort.

There was like a 88hp 2.0 also...

But mine had the 2.8 V6 that crawled out of somewhere in Germany, 110hp 150lb-ft (best in class, must have been a pretty low bar) Mustang II sounds a lot better than a Pinto BTW. Computer controlled 2bbl carb combined the downsides of carburation and computers with neither of the advantages. I don't remember where the power was rated but it was a 4lo and plant the skinny pedal type engine.

It currently has an '87 302 in it so it is a somewhat period power plant.

I did not mean to intend to imply that it was a factory stock thing, I am sorry if it came across that way.

 
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85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
Nevermind emmissions.
Farm tractors often need to operate two separate outputs at different speeds. PTO and wheels. PTOs often need to run at specific RPMs regardless of groundspeed.

Which still all fall into the same pile.

More gears = better.

PTO speed adds another level to it but there is a lot of times with my 4 speed tractor I wish I could go a little faster than the gear I am in but not as fast as the next gear and vice versa for going slower. A 2.5 gear would be great on the disk, a 3.5 gear would be great on the rotatory hoe.

I only mow weeds with the PTO so in my little world that isn't as critical as like running a baler or something.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Today Corvettes produce power over a much narrower rpm range
No way...I bet they have a much broader power curve, pretty much every year over year. While they may make a TON more power and the power curve may look "peaky" when you are dealing with something that can breath and makes BIG hp up top, down low, they are still very powerful relative to their predecessors....
 
D

Deleted member 9101

Guest
My step brother has an old Mack truck (B model?) with a 25 speed and zero emissions.... I'm pretty sure the lack of emissions has nothing to do with the 25 gears...lol.
 

billiebob

Well-known member
Mack truck (B model?) with a 25 speed
While it looks like 26 speeds you cannot use every combination. 18 useable combinations.
Unknown.jpeg

Another early Mack, 5speed, 3 speed auxiluary
2346-11MY41AP28-3.jpg

This guy is better than most.


I'm retired but I keep my Class I just in case the opportunity arises to drive one.
Armstrong steering to.

An all time favourite..

 
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85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
While it looks like 26 speeds you cannot use every combination. 18 useable combinations.
View attachment 573865

Another early Mack, 5speed, 3 speed auxiluary
View attachment 573867

This guy is better than most.


I'm retired but I keep my Class I just in case the opportunity arises to drive one.
Armstrong steering to.

An all time favourite..


I don’t think the engine in that second truck is long for this world being driven like that...
 

billiebob

Well-known member
Must admit I have not owned an automatic in 30 years. But I've driven several. In cars, Euro & Asian they are awesome. I drive a 2018 E450? with a 5? speed and in trailer tow mode it is incredible. Every automatic today the first thing I do is select the trailer tow mode. On steep downhills, lift off and it drops a gear instantly. Ford definitely has it figured out.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
You've never worked in the bush.... thats just a regular work day. There is no abuse, she nails every shift.

Nope, I live in the sticks.

And that makes me cringe.

I have seen similar (not quite as severe) done, mainly with grain trucks. Oddly never by the truck owner...
 

jonathon

Active member
Modern emissions systems have almost no negative effect on power. To the point that there is no power or efficiency to be freed up by removing them, at least on a gasoline engine. Diesel is a little different since it burns fuel for regeneration, though it looks like diesel systems are rapidly improving.

What 6+ speed transmissions do for gasoline engines is allow the gear spacing to be closer and the first gears to be lower, which keeps a gas engine in its power band after each shift.

My Ram has the 6.4 Hemi and 8 speed auto. The transmission is incredible. Never hunts for gears, responsive, smooth, holds a gear at low speed... I could go on and on. Ram and ZF have really dialed in the transmission tuning. The 5.0:1 first gear is awesome, really reduces the need for low range when you set the gear limit to 1.
 

gatorgrizz27

Well-known member
You have to decide what you consider a “modern” engine. Fuel injection? Overhead cams? EGR? By and large, modern engines make more power than older (even pre emission) engines. I have a 95 Range Rover with a 4.2L V8. Pushrod, EFI, distributor, no catalytic converters or OBD II equipment. It made 200 hp. Wife has an 08 Range Rover with a 4.2L V8 (mild factory supercharger) that makes 400 hp.

IMO, a six speed transmission is ideal for almost all vehicles. Fewer is limiting, more is constantly gear hunting or changing 5 times from 0-30 mph. My favorite engines have all been slightly oversquare (stroke about 75% of the bore), large displacement per cylinder, with both low end torque and heads that allow higher RPM airflow. What you end up with is something that can be lugged and short shifted, (or just not shifted) as well as something that that can be revved out and driven fast and hard.

To pass someone you can simply add throttle, you don’t have to drop multiple gears to get the revs up, and then change up several times while passing to keep it in the powerband.

When it comes to automatics, the only ones that do what I want them to are made by ZF and Allison.

Something like a 6.0L V8 that makes power from 2,000-8,000 RPM mated to a 6 speed ZF would be bad medicine.
 

Regcabguy

Oil eater.
How do the modern automatics do on a steep uphill road in the summer with the A/C on and fully loaded with gear or a popup camper? This would be low speed.
I had an 89 Chevy 3500 350cu and 400 trans,also a 1998.5 Ram diesel with an auto. Both would get hot especially the Chevy. GM had a "fix" that year which was a lever operated sealing dipstick. it would overheat but the fluid wouldn't boil over and out of the dipstick. I know auxiliary coolers are out there but how about stock?
I have a G-56 manual on my truck but do love getting into our Honda Pilot.
 

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