Impassible When Wet

[SALT]

OK, drove down to Moab last weekend to drive the support vehicle for 6 friends who rode the White Rim on their MTB's in one day. 80 miles on a MTB in one day is no small task, took us about 12 hours total. It was an awesome trip, too short but fun. The White Rim is basically a 2WD trail with 3 switchback sections that require 4Low gearing. Given the length of the trail and it's moderate nature I choose to run the PSI around 28 front / 25 rear. We had a few T-storms roll by all day and drop some serious rain and hail. The White rim is a pretty mellow trail but if it rains a ton it can get realllllly nasty very quickly. 4wd and aggressive tires were beyond required at that point. Put it this way, when my buddy and I reached the top of the Mineral Bottom Road we were VERY relieved. Dry = no worries. Fully saturated = hairy. We had flash floods and waterfalls blasting out everywhere. Impromptu full on flash flood river behind our camp at the top of Mineral Bottom road raged all night long and disappeared just as quickly around 9AM. Flash on Flash off. I can see how the road was destroyed a few seasons back. One Ranger we spoke to estimated that we got approx 2.25" of rain. This was the first legit test of my new Cooper ST Maxx tires. I was very happy to see how well they did when the trail turned to mud/sand slurry. The climb up Mineral Bottom raod was NASTY. It was puking rain.

I'd say tires first, then a basic recovery bag, then maybe chains. I'm researching chains now as were expecting some during elk hunting season.

Good luck!

Salt
I was very impressed with the ST Maxx's ability to clear clay and mud and they reamin almost silent (compaired to my ST's) on the road and track straight. I was even more impressed that all 6 of my friends and co-workers hardened up and rode the whole trail regardless of weather.

 

[richard310]

OK, drove down to Moab last weekend to drive the support vehicle for 6 friends who rode the White Rim on their MTB's in one day. 80 miles on a MTB in one day is no small task, took us about 12 hours total. It was an awesome trip, too short but fun. The White Rim is basically a 2WD trail with 3 switchback sections that require 4Low gearing. Given the length of the trail and it's moderate nature I choose to run the PSI around 28 front / 25 rear. We had a few T-storms roll by all day and drop some serious rain and hail. The White rim is a pretty mellow trail but if it rains a ton it can get realllllly nasty very quickly. 4wd and aggressive tires were beyond required at that point. Put it this way, when my buddy and I reached the top of the Mineral Bottom Road we were VERY relieved. Dry = no worries. Fully saturated = hairy. We had flash floods and waterfalls blasting out everywhere. Impromptu full on flash flood river behind our camp at the top of Mineral Bottom road raged all night long and disappeared just as quickly around 9AM. Flash on Flash off. I can see how the road was destroyed a few seasons back. One Ranger we spoke to estimated that we got approx 2.25" of rain. This was the first legit test of my new Cooper ST Maxx tires. I was very happy to see how well they did when the trail turned to mud/sand slurry. The climb up Mineral Bottom raod was NASTY. It was puking rain.

I'd say tires first, then a basic recovery bag, then maybe chains. I'm researching chains now as were expecting some during elk hunting season.

Good luck!

Salt
I was very impressed with the ST Maxx's ability to clear clay and mud and they reamin almost silent (compaired to my ST's) on the road and track straight. I was even more impressed that all 6 of my friends and co-workers hardened up and rode the whole trail regardless of weather.

That's quite an sketchy but exciting trip. I was going to run White Rim and a few other trails in the area for two days solo last month coming back from CO, but wasn't able to due to time constraints and scattered t-storms/flash flood warnings. Glad to hear you and your MTB buddies finished and made it out. Plus good to hear another great story on the ST Maxx's as those will be replacing my tired worn BFG's.

 

[guts]

I have a 2010 Pro-4x and I love my Mickey Thompson MTZ's. I have never felt like I was not in control of the truck. I have never really played in what you are talking about but in the North East I have gone through a lot of nasty mud and they clear like a charm. If you want AT's then check out the Mickey Thompson ATZ P3's they have had some amazing reviews. Good luck on the tire hunt!

 

[wreckdiver1321]

As others have said, tires will do the trick in these situations for sure. I am 100% positive that tires would make all the difference. It's certainly not a case of older is better. The F-Alpha platform is tremendously capable, far more than most of my previous trucks. It continues to impress me even today. They have a really good amount of flex for a stock vehicle, good amount of power, etc.

Cooper AT3s are a great choice, especially for the price. Their traction is very good in most situations. They are better than many ATs in snow and in the mud. My dad has had a few sets and they've never let him down. Another good option is the General AT2. I run them on my 2005 Nismo and they perform amazingly. In my experience they beat out the BFG ATs (original KO) in the mud, if only by a small margin. Price is way better too. That being said, BFGs are a bit tougher tire. If you're looking for all out traction, then perhaps you want the ST Maxx. Bulletproof and awesome traction in most situations, but I wouldn't expect huge performance in icy situations if that's a concern. Another good option is the BFG Rugged Terrain (not Rugged Trails). They are very tough, and provide very good traction in most situations. Very quiet and smooth on the road too. The disadvantage to them is their performance in really gumbo mud. Voids just aren't big enough, but they hold their own. In my experience, those are the best AT choices out there. They all have areas of strength and weakness, but are all very good tires at most things. In the end, it kind of depends on how aggressive and capable you want to be.

On the mild end, there is the AT3 and Rugged Terrain, which are both very capable tires, but very mild. They will not be the toughest, but they will be nice on the road and capable enough when you need them to be.

Coming up in the middle is the General AT2 or the BFG AT. They are kind of do-it-all tires which are good at most things but excel at nothing. They aren't the best for mud, or ice, or snow, or rocks, but they can do them all and keep their composure. If you're looking at this kind of tire, then it boils down to "how much do you want to spend?"

At the aggressive end, think Cooper ST Maxx. There's not a lot that it can be compared to. The Duratracs have fairly flimsy sidewalls, and everything else is too "muddy". The ST Maxx kicks a** in mud and rocks, and is a mile above the previous ATs in the snow. Not so great in the ice, but again, I don't know if that's a concern. They are also one of the toughest tires out there. It shows too, because it's so damned heavy. This of course means road manners aren't as nice. They aren't very MPG friendly and are noisier on the road. Not quite as precise going down the highway either. But if you need the best in traction, then this is the tire.

What if you want something in between the middle and aggressive end? Well, I'd start thinking about looking at the new BFG AT KO2. They'll cost, but I think they are set to be the top all terrain tire.

 

[Gooseberry]

I have done the Mesa in two storm events. Last year the day before the rampage I was on the Mesa and had a storm come through the last night and drove out in the morning and that grade up to the main road had me all over the place but made it with softball size mud balls on the roof of the van. I did some good by pulling few cars out to the highway with me and I love my bfg e rated tires and yes I way at 10,000 lbs so yes it left a mark. The first time was in a Tacoma extra cab long bed 2wd that made it to the main dirt road after seeing water start to flow at camp. I feel was just dam luck that we mad it that far in the storm. Once on the main byway we had three ponds to go around and made it ok on the first one but slid into the second and so did the wrx with us. I pulled out the repeater guide and tried everyone I could for my ham radio and by this time it was snowing. I was about to give up and my friend hoping I would next to me I did catch someone in ceder city and he called Morgan and mike who had great pleaser in pulling us out. Yes i sure if you ask Morgan it will be greater story they what I have said.

Ok two things or three one was the guy on the radio was in Florida not Utah and the third pond we needed to get through went over the hood of my Tacoma while being towed to the highway and this is the big one STAY ON THE MESA if you have food and water it drains fast and will be drivable in a day maybe two.

 

[Topgun514]

Thanks everyone, and wreckdiver for the advice!

AT3 and Rugged Trails peak my interest. I probably have 50-70 miles of offroad since I purchased the truck in June. Winter will be a big test too, with probably a 60-40 Snow to pavement driving percentage. I have tested BFG AT's and Duratracs but would like to move to a lighter, more mpg efficient, but durable tire. Yes, I know, I want the impossible. But I will keep researching a bit into these.


After another weekend in Moab now, I have more truck concerns... Does anyone know the tipover angle of a Crew Cab Frontier? A few lifted wranglers and a lifted tundra were coming back on the trail towards Tower Arch in Arches NP, I asked how the road was and they said rough but I should be ok. The 4Lo in this is boggy but with a few chirps of the tires, the fronty crawled over and through everything---EXCEPT... the road sunk down, about 5 feet, and the two track I was following dipped about 2-3 feet on passenger. I could not drive around because of the sunken road but became very light on my drivers side. Probably the furthest over I have been and went to crawl through but feared tipping on the right side.

I may have driven 1-3% offroad and the rest highway on this, but I am putting it through it's paces in its first 4 months of ownership. Again, my Jeep would have been fine, but it was rear-swaybar-less. I want this truck just to perform, but do not know tipover angle (2" OME light Duty lift, rear sway attached). Would taking off the rear sway hurt the on road drive, is my COG better than a 25 degree angle to tip... asking for me help...Thanks everyone, again, for the help.

 

[wreckdiver1321]

Thanks everyone, and wreckdiver for the advice!

AT3 and Rugged Trails peak my interest. I probably have 50-70 miles of offroad since I purchased the truck in June. Winter will be a big test too, with probably a 60-40 Snow to pavement driving percentage. I have tested BFG AT's and Duratracs but would like to move to a lighter, more mpg efficient, but durable tire. Yes, I know, I want the impossible. But I will keep researching a bit into these.


After another weekend in Moab now, I have more truck concerns... Does anyone know the tipover angle of a Crew Cab Frontier? A few lifted wranglers and a lifted tundra were coming back on the trail towards Tower Arch in Arches NP, I asked how the road was and they said rough but I should be ok. The 4Lo in this is boggy but with a few chirps of the tires, the fronty crawled over and through everything---EXCEPT... the road sunk down, about 5 feet, and the two track I was following dipped about 2-3 feet on passenger. I could not drive around because of the sunken road but became very light on my drivers side. Probably the furthest over I have been and went to crawl through but feared tipping on the right side.

I may have driven 1-3% offroad and the rest highway on this, but I am putting it through it's paces in its first 4 months of ownership. Again, my Jeep would have been fine, but it was rear-swaybar-less. I want this truck just to perform, but do not know tipover angle (2" OME light Duty lift, rear sway attached). Would taking off the rear sway hurt the on road drive, is my COG better than a 25 degree angle to tip... asking for me help...Thanks everyone, again, for the help.

I run the Grabber AT2s on my truck, 265/75R16. They did drop my mileage a tad, but I still get 19.5 on the highway doing 70. Bump it up to 75 and it's more like 18. But it sounds like the two options that would suit you best are the AT2 or the Cooper AT3. Can't really go wrong either way.

Sounds a bit hairy. You can tip them over a fair bit before they fall over, but I wouldn't want to test that. My personal no go number is right around 25*. And even at that point I'm crapping myself. When it gets past that point, I start thinking about building the trail back up a bit.

As far as the rear swaybar, does your come with one? Mine doesn't even hove one, or the brackets to mount one. Mine cornered flatter than any truck I'd ever driven before I took off the front swaybar, so I doubt removing it would have a large negative impact on road.

 

[2014 Warthog]

Thanks everyone, and wreckdiver for the advice!

After another weekend in Moab now, I have more truck concerns... Does anyone know the tipover angle of a Crew Cab Frontier? A few lifted wranglers and a lifted tundra were coming back on the trail towards Tower Arch in Arches NP, I asked how the road was and they said rough but I should be ok. The 4Lo in this is boggy but with a few chirps of the tires, the fronty crawled over and through everything---EXCEPT... the road sunk down, about 5 feet, and the two track I was following dipped about 2-3 feet on passenger. I could not drive around because of the sunken road but became very light on my drivers side. Probably the furthest over I have been and went to crawl through but feared tipping on the right side.

I may have driven 1-3% offroad and the rest highway on this, but I am putting it through it's paces in its first 4 months of ownership. Again, my Jeep would have been fine, but it was rear-swaybar-less. I want this truck just to perform, but do not know tipover angle (2" OME light Duty lift, rear sway attached). Would taking off the rear sway hurt the on road drive, is my COG better than a 25 degree angle to tip... asking for me help...Thanks everyone, again, for the help.

Ha , I just drove that trail last week and know exactly the section you are talking about I was heading south and so was on the drives side of my 4runner which is the heavier (and more tippy) side. I did have a passenger though so that balanced it out some. That was a tad hairy, or at least it felt that way.

Unfortunately, the tip over angle is dependent on SO many factors, lift, tires and inflation pressure, left side vs right side and cargo inside and or on the roof, all besides the make/model of the vehicle. Hard to give an answer to that question other than you'll know it when you find it I've been wondering the answer for myself but I can't see how you can find out other than by doing some sort of controlled test.

Removing sway bar is usually bad for the road, especially in quick maneuver/emergency situations, and in general may just drive like crap with the cab leaning over on every turn and even in the wind. Even if it seems fine with normal gentle driving, it can bite you if you need to make a quick turn. BUT you can get quick removable swaybar links so that you can be swaybarless offroad but sway protected on road. Heck if the link ends ore in plain view, you can wrench off one end of one of the links (and maybe duct tape it up) to give it a try...

 

[Topgun514]

Thanks Warthog! I'm glad you know where I was talking about, I felt a bit wussy backing out but with two passengers both on that side, I was a tad uneasy. At the point I was, my drivers seat felt about 25 degrees over, I don't know exactly what it was. If I had the passengers pop out and assist the rig I would have been fine I bet, but was not ready to do that on a casual drive for family in town.


Also, Wreck: My plan is getting a 235/85/16 tire for the rig next too. I am in a Frontier CC SV, no locker but for my ultimate plans, I hope it is not a necessity.

 

[rgallant]

Tires yup a fun decision, I went with the St/Maxx on my Pathfinder. Heavy but not too bad a hit on fuel mileage they seem to work well here in the Northwest. I tend to avoid mud like the plague but the few times I got into some slimy stuff I got out ok. I have limited use in snow Vancouver BC, but I dropped the TP by 10 psi and got around ok.