Ineos Grenadier Sub Forum
- Thread starter Beowulf
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plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
How many have been sold?
NevadaLover
Forking Icehole
Done - I just need to find a better description...any suggestion?
Modernized british tanks with german guts!
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
Interesting to see if they get built in any real numbers- and get enough miles on them to see how they hold up.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
"Suspect Transfer Case" is news to me - can you share more about that, Billybob?
Hopefully in my driveway
XJLI
Adventurer
says who? its a "clean sheet" gear-driven case designed by Tremec. I'm sure Ineos gave Tremec a LT230 and said, "make it better." And the LT230 is a GREAT transfer case.
nickw
Adventurer
It has 6 lug axles so I'd guess 1/2T (at best) and it would seem that putting 1T axles on this would be massively overbuilding for intended use.
Also worth pointing out, the gas/petrol version uses the 8HP51 trans which is a light duty trans used in rings like the Supra/Lightweight BMW sedans. Now who knows how those are developed or what 'durability' tests are done, but I'd really like Ineos to directly address what sort of engineering studies were done via partnership with BMW. Maybe internals were beefed up? Maybe ZF durability tests of the trans are the same for all vehicles and only are based on power requirements.....since Ineos 'detuned' the B58 vs other platforms that use the HP51 there could be a bigger factor of safety associated with the use of that trans.....engineers are smart, they think through this stuff I just wish Ineos would share the data (personally) since they have no history of building rigs that last. I trust most major manuf. with this kind of stuff, I'm not a fatalist, but they gotta realize people want this kind of info, particulary enthusiasts that are going to be buying them.
List of rigs that use the 8HP51:
5th Generation Toyota Supra (A90)
BMW 3 Series (G20)
BMW 2 Series (G42)
Jaguar XE 20d RWD (2019–)
BMW Z4 (G29)
I want nothing associated with this:
....associated with my robust 4x4 rig.
It's very out of character for a manuf to do that on a HD offroad rig (at least marketed as such), not saying it can't work or won't, but it's not something we've historically seen even though they are pulling at the heart strings of folks who like that old school, simple, durability of 70 series/Gwagan/Patrol/Rover crowd.
Maybe I being to harsh though......but I think Ineos should show the data.
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nickw
Adventurer
'Should be', I agree, but the same people saying this is a heavy duty world class expedition vehicle are the same ones saying Jeeps are not.
When you get down to the nuts and bolts, how wouldn't a Jeep Wrangler with the same trans be better or just as good? Based on the price of the Jeep, upgrade axles to HD housings / D44 variants (if it doesn't come with them) or possibly better yet D60's. You have a more simple platform, proven, with world class supply chain that can be fixed anyplace and the engine is a simple V6 with no turbo's and no vanos.
To each their own 100%, IG looks cool, but to tout it as a modernized Defender and shame the Jeep, based on what we know, doesn't make sense (in my head). Until Ineos comes out and shows us why it's better, on paper, I'm not seeing it.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
While I agree with your overall sentiment - show us the specs (and they have - more in a moment) - but I'm not so sure about that logic on the trans, Nick. The transmission going into the Grenadier is the 3rd gen version of ZF's rear-drive platform; the second gen of the same kit was used in all these rigs:
Safe to say that I wouldn't compare a BMW 5 series to a Jeep Wrangler in terms of expedition vehicles, even though they use the same transmission.
A better question is - how often does the ZF drivetrain fail in JLs and Gladiators? By my assessment, I would classify both of those rigs as "light duty" off-road vehicles. If the ZF was failing regularly in them, I'd have no faith of having it in a more medium- to heavy-duty vehicle (I would class the gren as "medium duty"). But, there doesn't appear to be any major issues with the ZF running gear in the Gladiator or the JL, therefore we can conclude that it works good in that "light duty" application. So then, how will it fare in a "medium duty" application? We can only look at the numbers so far, which claim that the ZF unit in some configurations can handle over 700 foot pounds of torque (or as little as 162 foot pounds, so there is some variability to the platform - the one going in the Gren looks to sit at just shy of 400 foot pounds of torque). In short, I don't think the transmission & transfer case will be an issue in this vehicle given how reliable it's been in other rigs.
And on the note of specs - there's a video posted on Expo today by our very own Scott Brady:
Detailed Walk-Around :: Ineos Grenadier Trialmaster for Overlanding - Expedition Portal
For this video, we dive deep on the Grenadier's specifications and components, reviewing the drivetrain, traction devices, features, and more.
expeditionportal.com
Taken from the text below the article, as well as a few other key details I've been keeping track of for my needs, here's a quick feature comparison between the Gren and the JL:
| Item | Jeep | Grenadier |
| Construction | Body on Frame | Body on Frame |
| Axles | Solid, lockers in some packages, Dana (variable robustness depending on package) | Solid, lockers in some/most packages, Cararro - specialize in off-road axles (tractors and heavy equipment; same axles in every Grenadier) |
| Suspension | 4-link long-travel coil sprung suspension | 5-link Long-travel coil-sprung suspension |
| Drivetrain | Varies from the near-bulletproof Pentastar to the problem-prone Diesel. Highly variable torque and HP depending on selection. Some serviceability issues across the board but nothing that prevents most folks from working on it. | BMW B57/58 - unproven in this platform. Reasonably good reputation in other platforms except when it comes time to do big maintenance jobs. TBD if it's shade-tree friendly or not but the publication of workshop manuals that are included with purchase is encouraging of a shade-tree friendly ethos. |
| General Serviceability | Chrysler Dealers and independent mechanics - no proprietary software, however sometimes OEM parts are a challenge, but there is almost always an aftermarket alternative for everything from hood latches to drivetrain components. | Partnership with Bosch-certified garages which are worldwide. TBD on how this all works. Suggestion that serviceability will be high with service manual availability and CAD-IT partnership offering 3D "how to" repair instructions to end-users. |
| Commercial Option | Military - J8 (Based on JK frame). Not available to general public, otherwise no commercial variant available. | Commercial and Consumer variants available; only changes are interior layout. Body, drivetrain, etc. is the same between commercial and consumer variants. |
| Payload | under 900 lbs (for Rubicon package) to around 1300 for the Sport package | 1700 lbs starting payload. |
| Wading Depth | 850 mm | 800 mm |
| Roof Load Rating | N/A - need specialized aftermarket roof rack that bolts to roll bar or frame. Cannot equip rain-gutter racks due to cracking fibreglass. | 750 lbs, no need for roofrack, integrated handles and tie-downs into the roof. Rain-gutter racks A-OK opening up variety of roof load options (Racks, bars, etc.) |
| Dual Battery | N/A | Factory option |
| Sunroof | Freedom Top | Safari Panels |
| Accessories | Jeep is the LEGO of the car world - sky is the limit. | Grenadier has the slick utility belts that'll hold a couple hundred pounds on a door. Also plenty of early collaboration with the aftermarket (ARB, Alucab, Ironman4x4) already underway. |
| Can I get a colour on the frame? | No, it's black and boring and probably reduces overall performance by 50 horsepower | I can get a red one which means it'll be better off road and faster on the highways. |
So in a lot of areas the Gren and the Jeep are comparable, but in a couple of areas -- roof loads and payload -- the Grenadier walks away from the Wrangler in their "off the lot" trim. The Jeep never really walks away from the Grenadier based just on specs we can confirm so far, and in the areas where it might run away, we need a few years of real-world use to know for sure. That's not to shame the jeep - it's a great vehicle and I still miss mine! But the Gren is presenting a bit of a different option on the market, and for a lot of common Overlanding applications - especially with multiple adults in one vehicle - the Gren is looking to be the better bet on paper. It addresses a lot of the shortcomings of the Wrangler without sacrificing much in terms of on-paper capability (i.e. approach, departure, wading, etc.).
nickw
Adventurer
I guess the issue I have is you hear Scott in the vid say things like "axles built by company the specialize in tractors" and "very robust ZF 8 speed transmission".....based on what? It's a bit disingenuous and misleading (IMO). Based on Scott's background I would have expected something like:While I agree with your overall sentiment - show us the specs (and they have - more in a moment) - but I'm not so sure about that logic on the trans, Nick. The transmission going into the Grenadier is the 3rd gen version of ZF's rear-drive platform; the second gen of the same kit was used in all these rigs:
Safe to say that I wouldn't compare a BMW 5 series to a Jeep Wrangler in terms of expedition vehicles, even though they use the same transmission.
A better question is - how often does the ZF drivetrain fail in JLs and Gladiators? By my assessment, I would classify both of those rigs as "light duty" off-road vehicles. If the ZF was failing regularly in them, I'd have no faith of having it in a more medium- to heavy-duty vehicle (I would class the gren as "medium duty"). But, there doesn't appear to be any major issues with the ZF running gear in the Gladiator or the JL, therefore we can conclude that it works good in that "light duty" application. So then, how will it fare in a "medium duty" application? We can only look at the numbers so far, which claim that the ZF unit in some configurations can handle over 700 foot pounds of torque (or as little as 162 foot pounds, so there is some variability to the platform - the one going in the Gren looks to sit at just shy of 400 foot pounds of torque). In short, I don't think the transmission & transfer case will be an issue in this vehicle given how reliable it's been in other rigs.
And on the note of specs - there's a video posted on Expo today by our very own Scott Brady:
Detailed Walk-Around :: Ineos Grenadier Trialmaster for Overlanding - Expedition Portal
For this video, we dive deep on the Grenadier's specifications and components, reviewing the drivetrain, traction devices, features, and more.expeditionportal.com
Taken from the text below the article, as well as a few other key details I've been keeping track of for my needs, here's a quick feature comparison between the Gren and the JL:
Item Jeep Grenadier Construction Body on Frame Body on Frame Axles Solid, lockers in some packages, Dana (variable robustness depending on package) Solid, lockers in some/most packages, Cararro - specialize in off-road axles (tractors and heavy equipment; same axles in every Grenadier) Suspension 4-link long-travel coil sprung suspension 5-link Long-travel coil-sprung suspension Drivetrain Varies from the near-bulletproof Pentastar to the problem-prone Diesel. Highly variable torque and HP depending on selection. Some serviceability issues across the board but nothing that prevents most folks from working on it. BMW B57/58 - unproven in this platform. Reasonably good reputation in other platforms except when it comes time to do big maintenance jobs. TBD if it's shade-tree friendly or not but the publication of workshop manuals that are included with purchase is encouraging of a shade-tree friendly ethos. General Serviceability Chrysler Dealers and independent mechanics - no proprietary software, however sometimes OEM parts are a challenge, but there is almost always an aftermarket alternative for everything from hood latches to drivetrain components. Partnership with Bosch-certified garages which are worldwide. TBD on how this all works. Suggestion that serviceability will be high with service manual availability and CAD-IT partnership offering 3D "how to" repair instructions to end-users. Commercial Option Military - J8 (Based on JK frame). Not available to general public, otherwise no commercial variant available. Commercial and Consumer variants available; only changes are interior layout. Body, drivetrain, etc. is the same between commercial and consumer variants. Payload under 900 lbs (for Rubicon package) to around 1300 for the Sport package 1700 lbs starting payload. Wading Depth 850 mm 800 mm Roof Load Rating N/A - need specialized aftermarket roof rack that bolts to roll bar or frame. Cannot equip rain-gutter racks due to cracking fibreglass. 750 lbs, no need for roofrack, integrated handles and tie-downs into the roof. Rain-gutter racks A-OK opening up variety of roof load options (Racks, bars, etc.) Dual Battery N/A Factory option Sunroof Freedom Top Safari Panels Accessories Jeep is the LEGO of the car world - sky is the limit. Grenadier has the slick utility belts that'll hold a couple hundred pounds on a door. Also plenty of early collaboration with the aftermarket (ARB, Alucab, Ironman4x4) already underway. Can I get a colour on the frame? No, it's black and boring and probably reduces overall performance by 50 horsepower I can get a red one which means it'll be better off road and faster on the highways.
So in a lot of areas the Gren and the Jeep are comparable, but in a couple of areas -- roof loads and payload -- the Grenadier walks away from the Wrangler in their "off the lot" trim. The Jeep never really walks away from the Grenadier based just on specs we can confirm so far, and in the areas where it might run away, we need a few years of real-world use to know for sure. That's not to shame the jeep - it's a great vehicle and I still miss mine! But the Gren is presenting a bit of a different option on the market, and for a lot of common Overlanding applications - especially with multiple adults in one vehicle - the Gren is looking to be the better bet on paper. It addresses a lot of the shortcomings of the Wrangler without sacrificing much in terms of on-paper capability (i.e. approach, departure, wading, etc.).
"the company building the axles has a reputation in the industrial segment and based on my conversation with IG engineers they are designed for heavy field use which aligns with my visual inspection"
and...
"while the transmission is the same one used across lighter duty applications by BMW we were assured by IG that the transmission meets very stringent offroad duty cycles..."
I highly doubt if he was reviewing a Jeep he'd use those same sorts of words, "highly robust proven Jeep transmission" <- never spoken by any car reviewer.
On that subject of Trans - the HP51 is as I stated, the HP50 are in the rigs you state and the 850RE are the ones used in the Jeeps....your guess is as good as mine as to what the differences are, based on what you see of forums, the 850RE has some internal tweaks like added clutch packs.
Overall it's a cool rig, I'd 100% rock one but what I do not like one bit is the glassing over of decisions without data to support decisions, especially in a market full of guys that like details....it breaks some of the rules of known 4x4 manuf. from Toyota/LR/Merc/Nissan (aka not using light duty parts on a heavy duty rig).....which is OK, but you lose a bit of credibility in my mind when you try to compare yourself with them, which IG is doing.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I don’t think they are glassing over much — they have a fair bit of information on their web page. They’ve also been doing a number of web series, some with more info than others, on the development journey and why they made the decisions they did. Scott’s impressions of the vehicles mirror more or less what the company has been promising, and that I think is good news.
To Ineos’ credit, they provide more information on their website than most others in the market, but their website is irritating to navigate and I wish they just had a PDF with all this stuff in one place. On this page they talk about a heavy duty torque converter - so I’m not so sure about the “light duty parts in a heavy duty truck” thing — and a rigorous testing program for the transmission, as well as their partnership with Carrara who “has 50 years experience making heavy duty tractor axles for the likes of John Deere and Claas”; it’s fairly easy to learn more about their pedigree from there. They also have some information on the testing program on another page and some very detailed specs about capacities and capabilities, but again I’d love a PDF that has all the nerd stuff all in one place.
As for the transmission stuff, from what I can figure from the Wikipedia entry the different designations of transmission you mentioned are just evolutions of the same transmission. There is a couple of higher torque version of this transmissions (8HP70 and higher), but the list I shared was for the 8HP50, which came out in 2014, and was succeeded by the 8HP51 which came out in 2018.
The transmission has also turned up in its Gen 1 form (released 2008) in the following rigs:
All of these designations have the same input torque specs, and represent a design that’s been in use and evolving since 2008, so I’d say that I agree with Scott that the transmission is well proven; it seems to have had pretty good success in a number of trucks (ram 1500 and VW amarok stood out to me) so no reason to think it’ll be inadequate for the job and specs of the vehicle. The testing program looked pretty robust to me.
One thing I can 100% agree with you on is this:
I reached that conclusion the second (of three) times I had to take mine out!