Insulating within the frame 50 gallon water tank

[rrliljedahl]

My fabricator (who frequents this website) and I have parted ways for a multitude of reasons to include not his inability to complete my truck flatbed/camper build over 9 months and multiple false statements as to how my deposit money had been spent.

We have now moved from a verbal disagreement into the legal and potential criminal mode so I am still reluctant to mention him here by name

I will now be trying to correct all of the problems with this build and needing to ask all of you for your input.

This vehicle will be used in the US and Canada and Mexico.

He built me a stainless steel 50+ gallon water tank that is mounted below the flatbed and between the frame rails.



His original "vision" was to weld a tube heat exchanger on this tank and circulate hot water from a webasto calorifier through the tube.

Now that I am in my own, I am not convinced that I should continue down this route of using diesel for both hot water and air heat. I may keep the diesel for air heat but switch to propane for hot water heat. I now need suggestions for alternatives as to how I can keep the tank from freezing.

The tank sits about 9 inches above my muffler.

I know that I can purchase an adhesive type 12 volt heat pad and place it on the bottom portion of the tank. I agree that it is not energy efficient but it would work well if I warmed the water while driving the truck or plugged into shore power.

Is there a heat resistant insulation that I could glue to the exposed steel to slow down its heat loss?

Thanks.

 

[rrliljedahl]

I really do not know why the pics are upside down or sideways here. Sorry about that!

In case you are interested, here are links to other issues I have with my vehicle
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/134092-3-point-suspension-question

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/135428-Another-tire-question?p=1720325#post1720325

At this point, i need all the input that I can get.

 

[Abitibi]

Sorry to hear about your issues with this clown, sounds very similar to a story that happened to Tyrant 66... Might wanna get in touch with him.

Your issue is that your water will freeze when not driving. Your lines will also freeze so either you convert that tank into a secondary fuel tank and build your water tank inside your cab or...

The idea of using the diesel heater to heat your tank is not bad if done properly. Basically you use a Espar heater to heat the coolant and run it through the tank via a sealed tube, just a basic low heat exchanger. We do it regularly here to heat fuel tank when running on veggie oil except we bypass the Espar and just use the heated coolant from the engine, running inside the tank by stainless tube (brake lines). You need just enough heart from preventing it from freezing but not so much as a boiler (risk of explosion)... The 12v heated pad would probably rob to much power when not driving, I don't think you have many options!

Good luck
Mr. D

 

[westyss]

Sorry to hear about your problems, might I suggest you start a build thread and have all of these issues in one spot for continuity.

Also, I agree with what Abitibi says concerning the water tank, the initial plan of using a diesel hot water coolant heater is a good idea, they are very common to use and are typically an Espar or Webasto and are efficient little units that can pre heat your engine and heat water, and also to heat the inside of the camper using small radiator/fan heaters. What you do is tap into the coolant system of the truck so while driving the coolant can flow through all those appliances and even your water tank so that when you get to camp the camper is warm, you have hot water and the water storage tank has been heated enough to not freeze.

I have this system on my rig and it works well, especially lately with our cold weather to pre heat the engine coolant before driving, I cant remember if my write up is comprehensive or where it might be on my build thread but I am sure there are some well explained systems on here somewhere, here is mine
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/48351-out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new/page15

I think it starts on this page but there might be some searching for the rest of the system.

 

[rrliljedahl]

The original description was that the heat sink would be welded to the outside of the water tank.

Could someone please describe how that would need to be fabricated?

 

[pugslyyy]

You need to introduce heat at the lowest point of the tank. As the water in the tank is warmed, it will rise and the cooler water will fall to the bottom of the tank. It doesn't take a lot of heat to stop a tank from freezing (which is why the 12V pads work).

You also need to have a circulator that will pull water from the tank up into the camper and then dump it back in. That will stop the lines from freezing. It doesn't need to be on all the time - it can be on a timer and run a minute every 10 minutes or whatever.

 

[AMBOT]

I have processed your post and have formulated a 96% probability that your fabricator is Justin Marquand aka HD-RV, aka Six13Metalworks, aka convicted felon, aka MegAmbo

It is with the same probability that he continues to operate his pyramid scheme, with promises of grandeur, sub-standard work, and the most entertaining lies one could manage. He takes deposits and does not complete, or delivers not what was agreed to and is careful to keep the $$ figures low enough to dissuade collection or prosecution and pocketing the difference.

 

[Abitibi]

I guess there's always two sides to a story but why are we so tolerant with this type of individual?

 

[pugslyyy]

I guess there's always two sides to a story but why are we so tolerant with this type of individual?

Well if I was contemplating legal action I would probably "keep my powder dry". I'd like to hear what happens when the dust settles.

 

[DiploStrat]

Since I'm Spending Your Money ...

two thotz:

-- You may be early enough in the process to simply rethink the problem and put the water tank inside the insulated camper. This is what I have with a 40 USG water tank. Similarly, all of the water lines are on the extreme inside, near the front of cabinets, etc., to keep them warm. I don't like losing the space under the couch, but I don't like frozen water either and, if I read you photos correctly, that tank has a lot of surface area. N.B. It is in the 20'sF as I type this and I just had a warm shower and washed up. Take another look at what you are carrying and consider if some of it could not be stored externally.

-- If you do keep the tank outside, perhaps because you don't plan that much cold weather camping, then consider pugslyyy's suggestion of a circulator pump. Probably requires a lot less power and you may not even have to route it into the camper; all you really need to do it pull water from one end and dump it back at the other. The trick will be knowing how much flow you have to create to prevent a freeze.

Best wishes!

 

[pugslyyy]

two thotz:

-- You may be early enough in the process to simply rethink the problem and put the water tank inside the insulated camper. This is what I have with a 40 USG water tank. Similarly, all of the water lines are on the extreme inside, near the front of cabinets, etc., to keep them warm. I don't like losing the space under the couch, but I don't like frozen water either and, if I read you photos correctly, that tank has a lot of surface area. N.B. It is in the 20'sF as I type this and I just had a warm shower and washed up. Take another look at what you are carrying and consider if some of it could not be stored externally.

-- If you do keep the tank outside, perhaps because you don't plan that much cold weather camping, then consider pugslyyy's suggestion of a circulator pump. Probably requires a lot less power and you may not even have to route it into the camper; all you really need to do it pull water from one end and dump it back at the other. The trick will be knowing how much flow you have to create to prevent a freeze.

Best wishes!

I should clarify and note that I actually have two tanks - one internal 40 gallon "potable" tank and one external 50 gallon "raw" tank. If I can readily resupply then I just use the internal tank, so the external tank is really more of a range extender than anything else.

I've used the external tank occassionally - but since it was on desert trips I didn't have to worry much about freezing.

 

[westyss]

I should clarify and note that I actually have two tanks - one internal 40 gallon "potable" tank and one external 50 gallon "raw" tank. If I can readily resupply then I just use the internal tank, so the external tank is really more of a range extender than anything else.

I've used the external tank occassionally - but since it was on desert trips I didn't have to worry much about freezing.

Thats a good way to do it, in that way having two tanks allows you to fill up some not so clean water if needed but still retain a clean water tank, also if a leak occurs in either tank there is redundancy and you will still have water, although it may be the less clean water.

This way it also frees up the interior space for other things, I look at it this way, if its cold out I will not need to shower as often so I need less water, but when its hot and sticky out I would like more showers and as a result more water, which is not a problem to take with me if its outside, its warm outside.... so no freezing.............very cold out, no water in the external tank ( Too cold to shower ) no freezing. So that set up works well IMO.

The whole design of the location for the water tank really depends on where and at what time of year you plan to go, for me its mandatory to keep all the water components inside, last week it was -7'C (19'F) and anything outside of the cabin envelope freezes, but those builders in Oz do not seem to worry about that so mount their tanks on the outside of the cabin, perhaps between the frame rails, which is ideal, unless of course he intends to ship his truck over here then he will need to so, it all depends on your intended usage areas as to where it goes.

 

[pugslyyy]

Thats a good way to do it, in that way having two tanks allows you to fill up some not so clean water if needed but still retain a clean water tank, also if a leak occurs in either tank there is redundancy and you will still have water, although it may be the less clean water.

This way it also frees up the interior space for other things, I look at it this way, if its cold out I will not need to shower as often so I need less water, but when its hot and sticky out I would like more showers and as a result more water, which is not a problem to take with me if its outside, its warm outside.... so no freezing.............very cold out, no water in the external tank ( Too cold to shower ) no freezing. So that set up works well IMO.

I have a pump on the inlet to the raw tank that allows me to fill it from a surface water source. I have use a mud puddle (yet), but I have filled from springs in the desert. Then I process the raw water into potable water through my filtration system once it is onboard.

As a practical matter I try to have potable water in both tanks, but things don't always work out that way. All water that I use in the camper passes through a final filtering that includes particulate, charcoal, and UV.

 

[rrliljedahl]

I have processed your post and have formulated a 96% probability that your fabricator is Justin Marquand aka HD-RV, aka Six13Metalworks, aka convicted felon, aka MegAmbo

It is with the same probability that he continues to operate his pyramid scheme, with promises of grandeur, sub-standard work, and the most entertaining lies one could manage. He takes deposits and does not complete, or delivers not what was agreed to and is careful to keep the $$ figures low enough to dissuade collection or prosecution and pocketing the difference.

Ambot
You should have been a detective!

My fabricator was Justin Marquand who is the sole proprietor/ owner of HD-RV and Six13 MetalWorks in Fletcher, NC.
Online he has been known as JMarquand, aka MegaAmbu, aka ZukiCamper

What Justin does not tell is that he is a convicted felon presently on a 10 year probation for embezzling $30,000 in 2009 from a bicycle shop he managed in Florida.
http://www.gainesville.com/article/2...CLES/110609884

http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/...ults&listpage=

This is all a matter of public record if one just does Google search. I stupidly did not do so until after I was well past $30,000 in deposits.

From personel experience, Justin has shown me that he has not learned from his past mistakes. He appears to lack a social conscience which others need to aware of before entering into any business relationship with him. I bring this up here to alert others to be very careful before having him do any project that involves an exchange of money.

In addition to not having finished my truck build, Justin still owes me a $4600 refund for a custom flatbed camper build which he never started while living off my deposits for 7 months. You will see that he did give me back the majority of my money but I want the rest of it. I figured out what was really going on last July and he has slowly been paying me back.

He claims to have no additional funds to give me but obviously he has enough money to trick out his Samurai shown on his recent build thread.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/foru...ghlight=Window
Sorry but his build thread was removed shortly after I posted this information.

My last conversation with him was that he wanted to finish my truck in exchange for the $4600 he owes me on the camper. Our relationship has degenerated to a point that I would be crazy to let him have my vehicle again. I was lucky to have gotten the truck out of his shop after he had it tore up for 9 months!

If anyone else has had a similar experience as mine, please contact me.

Ronald Liljedahl
rrliljedahl@gmail.com
828-243-9420

 

[rrliljedahl]

Sorry about wandering off topic with my last post.

To get things back on track, how does one go about putting a heat exchanger on or in a 50 gallon fresh water stainless steel tank after it has been built?

Cut 2 holes and weld a piece of stainless pipe through the tank with the appropriate fitting on each end.

Weld a piece of pipe to the bottom side of the water tank with the appropriate fittings on each end?

Does the size of the pipe matter?

How do you control the flow rate so you are not overheating the water?