Interesting take on vehicle modification

[ThundahBeagle]

Things are different in the US. There is nothing stopping someone from suing someone else for negligence or for someone being sued by "the people" for gross/criminal negligence and that is not something insurance would generally cover, but there has never been a documented case in the US, that I or anyone else has seen, where insurance refused to pay out due to the insured's negligence, whether it was speeding, drunk driving, texting, towing/hauling overweight, etc. People on RV forums claim all the time that if you're overweight and you cause an accident then your insurance won't cover the damages. That is simply false and not a single person has been able to produce proof of what they're claiming. If this ever happened you can be sure there would be first-hand accounts of it because the vast majority of recreational towers are overweight, knowingly or not. I've been involved in numerous forums over the years and have seen some wicked accidents where vehicles were clearly overweight. Nobody has ever said they got screwed and their insurance didn't pay out when they were at fault.

Insurance is literally coverage for negligence. Poor judgement is negligence. There are various degrees of negligence. Speeding when there are signs posted is negligence. "Poor judgement" isn't a legal definition. Shared fault, aka contributory negligence, can affect how much someone can recover from someone else for damages, but that doesn't mean someone's insurance won't kick in to cover what the other party's won't cover as long as you have the necessary coverage.

I know nothing about how insurance in Canada works but I've heard some not so great stories about people getting screwed. Here in the US there are different coverages available with auto insurance and the biggest issues are making sure you have sufficient coverage to CYA and also be made whole should someone else have no or insufficient coverage when they cause damage to your property.

Dashcams are becoming very important as well, can't count the number of times a dashcam has saved someone's bacon because the driver at fault lied about what happened and without the dashcam footage the damage may be plausible based on the other party's lies.

Anyhoo...

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Insurance isnt just to pay out someone who owns another car that you've hit. It also pays to have your own vehicle repaired. Especially in a "no-fault" state. If you are out of spec (whether it be declared equipment or stated use of vehicle) and are deemed the cause of an accident, your insurance will pay out the damaged party, but YOUR side of the claimed damage will go unpaid.

Proof? Ok. Some young girl was driving for Door Dash or UberEats or some such entity. She was parked right behind my truck. My truck was turned off, parked properly, locked and nobody was in it. I was in a residence nearby. No fault on me at all. Due to her lack of driving experience, lack of caution and subsequent panic, as she pulled out of the spot behind me, she hit the corner of my rear bumper with the front corner of her car. Startled, she hit the gas. My bumper was pushed into the body of my truck and bent a little. However, as she took off, the entire side of her vehicle was raked by the corner of my bumper. My damage was over 3 grand. Hers was a total loss. I got paid. She didnt. Know why? She never let insurance know that she was driving professionally. That would have increased her insurance rate, so she couldnt be bothered with paying on the front end, so she paid on the back end.

 

[NoDak]

This is getting ridiculous.

An accident is "investigated" by responding officers or in the case of serious injury or death a state trooper. You will simply be deemed at fault or not in a report that will go to the insurance companies that request the report for claims filed. It's very black and white. Nobody is going to be doled out differing degrees of responsibility. Thats just silly. You may or may not be cited for equipment violations if anything is glaringly obvious but I've never seen anyone fine tooth comb vehicles before they are loaded on a wrecker and taken to the body shop before repair or salvage.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Tomato Potato.

There are tons of random laws on the books limiting vehicle modification. Every state in the USA has it's own random version on top of a ton of vague federal level regulations.

Most (I actually think all, honestly) of the existing legislation is flat out stupid. Someone has to say it. Keeping people safe from themselves sounds noble, but is at its core, a racket.....taxes, fees, fines, added cost, etc. Punishing everyone because of the ineptitude, mistakes, or bad luck, of a few people is classic government, " we are here to help you ". Never mind that we already pay mountains of taxes to ensure access to quality services. Not a fan. Where does it stop?

I dont disagree with this, either

 

[ThundahBeagle]

This is getting ridiculous.

An accident is "investigated" by responding officers or in the case of serious injury or death a state trooper. You will simply be deemed at fault or not in a report that will go to the insurance companies that request the report for claims filed. It's very black and white. Nobody is going to be doled out differing degrees of responsibility. Thats just silly. You may or may not be cited for equipment violations if anything is glaringly obvious but I've never seen anyone fine tooth comb vehicles before they are loaded on a wrecker and taken to the body shop before repair or salvage.

Not correct. In case of serious accident resulting in death, your vehicle is not just towed away to the wrecking yard, it is impounded. And they do indeed then conduct an inspection. To which the opposite insurance and investigators get a copy. If they are quick enough, they may also get to inspect the car and find something the police missed.

Those equipment violations get piled upon you. You get fined for each. After x amount of violations (even withing the same traffic stop or accident) you have to take classes or lose your license. Then pay to get that reinstated and then guess what? Your insurance rate skyrockets because you are now in the "high risk pool." So, they have to insure you, but almost all bets are off as to what your premium will be. Except that it will be at a premium, to be sure.

Keep that up and your license is suspended. Next its revoked, then cancelled.

Here in Mass they do decide varying degrees of fault, to a certain extent.

All I'm saying is, even if it takes time, illegal mods can eventually come back to bite you legally and in the wallet. So going too big or too wide or too high is just not on the table for me

 

[rruff]

In every accident, the other driver's insurance company is the enemy. They are going to try to pin liability on anyone else. By all means, make yourself an easy target, if you like.

Yes, in my state at least, if you have a snowplow on the front of your truck, but you did not add the appropriate liability insurance for it, good luck in court even if someone else crosses the yellow and hits you head on. They caused the accident, but your extra unregulated and uninsured equipment caused more damage than due, or maybe caused an injury or fatality that wouldnt have happened if the plow wasnt there.

That's all very rational, as are the other instances you gave. Even if your driving was stellar, your "modification" resulted in greater damage, so it would make sense for you to be liable for that. Aftermarket bumpers would fit in this category also... they do way more damage in a collision. In some collisions they'd probably do more damage to both vehicle's occupants, since their rigidity would result in higher G force.

But DRAX was talking about the weight sticker. A 1/2 ton truck with a 3k lb load will do *less* damage in a collision than a 1 ton with a 3k load, because the truck weighs less. Assuming that the driver has made appropriate modifications to the suspension and tires (like any sensible person would do), it may also handle and brake better. Where is the rationale for greater liability? A claim that violating the sticker is an inherent safety issue is pure fantasy.

 

[NoDak]

Not correct. In case of serious accident resulting in death, your vehicle is not just towed away to the wrecking yard, it is impounded. And they do indeed then conduct an inspection. To which the opposite insurance and investigators get a copy. If they are quick enough, they may also get to inspect the car and find something the police missed.

Those equipment violations get piled upon you. You get fined for each. After x amount of violations (even withing the same traffic stop or accident) you have to take classes or lose your license. Then pay to get that reinstated and then guess what? Your insurance rate skyrockets because you are now in the "high risk pool." So, they have to insure you, but almost all bets are off as to what your premium will be. Except that it will be at a premium, to be sure.

Keep that up and your license is suspended. Next its revoked, then cancelled.

Here in Mass they do decide varying degrees of fault, to a certain extent.

All I'm saying is, even if it takes time, illegal mods can eventually come back to bite you legally and in the wallet. So going too big or too wide or too high is just not on the table for me

Are you DOT or LE? That's how it works for commercial. Is that what we are we talking about?

edit: I'm not saying a completely overzealous investigation can't happen, I'm just saying it doesn't happen. I've never seen, heard of or been a part of one that the vehicle was so thoroughly inspected.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Can you show one instance?



Really? I thought it was driving beyond safe parameters. Going too fast, not allowing enough distance, poor maintenance, lack of experience/talent, etc.

Fact is I can pretty easily mod my 1/2 ton to haul 2x its sticker payload, and it will handle and brake better than a stock 1 ton with that load. And they'll both be far better than all the big trucks and RVs on the road. GVWR is not a performance or safety standard of any kind. The manufacturers make up this number to limit their liability and warranty, and that's it.

Driving overloaded is driving beyond safe parameters.

I agree, you could do all of those mods and make your half ton handle and brake better than a 1 ton. But you would have to make those mods. That's kind of the point of the article is to make sure the mods you do make, are appropriate, worthwhile, and make your vehicle more capable instead of just looking good.

I imagine if you made those mods and drove with all sorts of extra cargo weight, then if there was a crash and resultant investigation, those mods may be found and recognized as appropriate, if they were done correctly.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Are you DOT or LE? That's how it works for commercial. Is that what we are we talking about?

edit: I'm not saying a completely overzealous investigation can't happen, I'm just saying it doesn't happen. I've never seen, heard of or been a part of one that the vehicle was so thoroughly inspected.

I am neither. However, the first paragraph is what happens in my state in accidents where death has occurred or is likely to occur after the fact. Second paragraph is simply how insurance and Registry of Motor Vehicles work in my state. By the way, those classes are put on by the National Safety Council. So, look for this to start happening in your state if it doesnt already.

And a full on investigation of the vehicles, drivers, occupants and everyone's behaviors after a highway death, is in no way shape or form overzealous

 

[NoDak]

I am neither. However, the first paragraph is what happens in my state in accidents where death has occurred or is likely to occur after the fact. Second paragraph is simply how insurance and Registry of Motor Vehicles work in my state. By the way, those classes are put on by the National Safety Council. So, look for this to start happening in your state if it doesnt already.

And a full on investigation of the vehicles, drivers, occupants and everyone's behaviors after a highway death, is in no way shape or form overzealous

My comment was in regards to any minor accident i.e. anything other than resulting in serious bodily harm or death. Didn't mean to come off as callous or unconcerned.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

That's all very rational, as are the other instances you gave. Even if your driving was stellar, your "modification" resulted in greater damage, so it would make sense for you to be liable for that. Aftermarket bumpers would fit in this category also... they do way more damage in a collision. In some collisions they'd probably do more damage to both vehicle's occupants, since their rigidity would result in higher G force.

But DRAX was talking about the weight sticker. A 1/2 ton truck with a 3k lb load will do *less* damage in a collision than a 1 ton with a 3k load, because the truck weighs less. Assuming that the driver has made appropriate modifications to the suspension and tires (like any sensible person would do), it may also handle and brake better. Where is the rationale for greater liability? A claim that violating the sticker is an inherent safety issue is pure fantasy.

I beleive Drax could modify a vehicle in such a way as to make it more capable and more responsive. But if an investigation is conducted pursuant to a death, they see, say, a big slide in camper on a k1500, that sticker WILL be referenced and most slideins are deemed too heavy for 1500's.

It would likely be up to Drax to prove his modifications made his truck better and more capable. And everything was torqued to spec along the way. And then answer the question by the clever attorney: "Why, Mr. Drax, would a torque spec concern you if the GVWR spec did not?"

I'm not necessarily saying Drax wouldnt be able to do great work. Hell, I'm no mechanic but did my friend's front brakes. Taught him about torque specs and loc-tite, and why we want to make sure the caliper anchor bolt doesnt come loose. Then an ASE certified mechanic did the rear brakes, and a rear caliper anchor bolt came loose on the highway. It could happen to anyone.

So Drax may do great work but he would then be in the near untenable position of proving he was qualified to do it, and then proving he dis so on that set of mods.

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy seeing nodded and offroad capable vehicles. I'm just nodding mine within the accepted limits because I dont want to hurt anyone and I dont want legal problems down the road. Same reason I try to have as little gear hanging off the outside of my truck as possible. If it was purely an offroad beast, that would surely be a different story

 

[plainjaneFJC]

we need less government intrusion not more..

It all boils down the this, it’s why our country was founded and the fight continues. Outsiders will not understand.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

My comment was in regards to any minor accident i.e. anything other than resulting in serious bodily harm or death. Didn't mean to come off as callous or unconcerned.

Sorry for any confusion. I didnt take your comment as callous. Minor accidents, I agree. They aren't likely to dig deep if nobody was seriously hurt. The bulk of my comments here have been related to worst case scenario stuff. Bodily damage, avulsion, lost appendages, brain injury or death, at least two totalled vehicles or more, highway traffic stopped for miles and so on.

 

[rruff]

Driving overloaded is driving beyond safe parameters.

I agree, you could do all of those mods and make your half ton handle and brake better than a 1 ton. But you would have to make those mods. That's kind of the point of the article is to make sure the mods you do make, are appropriate, worthwhile, and make your vehicle more capable instead of just looking good.

Actually, many are claiming that the weight sticker is holy writ (or "the law")... and that if you are over what it says, then you are overloaded and dangerous. Since you cannot get the weight sticker changed no matter what, any mods you do to improve handling and load carrying are irrelevant.

 

[NoDak]

Well even in the case of one or more vehicles being total loss we really don't care about that. it matters not to us.

 

[rruff]

I'm not necessarily saying Drax wouldnt be able to do great work. Hell, I'm no mechanic but did my friend's front brakes. Taught him about torque specs and loc-tite, and why we want to make sure the caliper anchor bolt doesnt come loose. Then an ASE certified mechanic did the rear brakes, and a rear caliper anchor bolt came loose on the highway. It could happen to anyone.
So Drax may do great work but he would then be in the near untenable position of proving he was qualified to do it, and then proving he dis so on that set of mods.

If your vehicle fails or falls apart, causing an accident, aren't you 100% liable regardless? Unless of course you can pin the blame on a mechanic's error. You are also liable if you cause an accident for failure to stop or some other driving lapse. The assertion by many is that since you violated the holy writ, you have also committed a mortal sin, and will be damned to the pits of hell! No excuses! No one cares about the actual capability of the vehicle, only the Word (or Number in this case).

Can you be 200% liable?